Hi there im a noob, so you can withold statements of that nature because believe me i already know. I havent had a lot of experience with pathfinder in fact I only was in 1 campaign before the one i started and in that campaign we used 5 d6 reroll ones and drop the lowest two for stats so i thought this was ok it would just lead to more epic-level gameplay so i let the group im running do the same. The only problem is i didnt take into account the fact that "rise of the runelords" wasnt designed for those high of stats. On top of that my party consists of a Warlord (Tome of Secrets) a bard, a wizard, a cleric and a ranger. So when they get going and all the buffs come into effect they are effectively like 2 levels higher than they really are. at one point with extra buffs and such the tank was at 27 AC at level 1! Needless to say goblins aren't going to scratch that. I have tried throwing higher CR monsters at them, raising boss health and AC, all to no avail since they just walk over everything. aside from one crit that a boss got i havent done almost any damage to them so the most excitement we see is who gets the kill. In fact the wizard has the most kills right now with nothing more than his staff! I really dont want to force them to reroll since it was a mistake i made but im running out of options... what ways do you think i can remedy the situation and if you think rerolling is the only option what form of reroll should it be?
What ability scores did they end up with?
I would ask these questions in the Adventure Path section. You will be able to get answers more specific to how you can make adjustments to the adventure or the party. The GMs there are more familiar with the opposition the party will be facing and they will be able to let you know if you are making tactical errors or if things need to be changed.
The first thing I would do though is have the Tome of Secrets character remade as a Lore Warden or Tactician fighter. The Tome of Secrets isn't really a great product and both of those archetypes are probably the closest to the concept (tactician is probably the closest of the two if I remember the Warlord correctly).
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Hello!
Thankfully, there isn't much of a culture of berating "noobs" here, so please settle in and relax!
Heed TriOmegaZero's advice upthread. Runelords actually provides "leveling points" so go ahead and level them by fiat at those points, but if they're really powerful keep them trailing a level or two. If the party loves XP, just put them on the slow XP track and keep handing it out as usual, but give "Story Awards" to close the gap as necessary. They'll never know the difference, and if they do, just point them to story awards in the GM chapter.
Challenge Rating is a yardstick, not a constraint on the GM. all affect the accuracy of CR. On top of this, remember that the CR assumption is that the players will take on around 4 ; something many players rarely do unless circumstances force them to, because it doesn't make strategic sense.
So don't be a slave to CR. It's there to help you, but it looks like you're dealing with at least two of the above factors operating outside of assumptions. The best way to figure out how you'll actually challenge them, which is distinct from merely killing them or doing damage, is to eyeball the stats and run some "rehearsal" combats against their characters on your own. The sweet spot is when at least one character almost dies. Aim for that, and be at peace if it turns out slightly easier or harder.
You might also be missing some key rules. Many AC bonuses don't "stack" for instance, you should read up and make certain that your players aren't overlooking these types of rules. If it turns out that the ACs are fair, but still very high, consider the Advanced template, or just literally reverse engineer the stats so that the monsters can even hit and then determine what CR that is. Take it all with a grain of salt, though. CR is a tool, not an autopilot.
Good luck, and don't hesitate to follow up after the next session.
What ability scores did they end up with?
they all have at least an 18 in their best stat and their lowest stat is probably a 14 with range being more towards the high end than the lower.
Also, in future, at the outset of a campaign explain to the players that having high stats may seem like fun, but it is actually the GM's job to adjust the challenge anyway. Having really high stats just makes it harder to GM, and so GMs burn out a little faster from constantly adjusting statblocks.
Big numbers are sexy, but not so sexy if it means you never finish a campaign.
First thing is that you have 5 PCs for an adventure designed for 4, so I'd up the number of creatures they are facing in each encounter. Second, I'd add the Advanced creature template to absolutely everything. Third, I'd also probably increase all the DCs in the adventure by 2 or three. Note that this is just a patch job and is just a temporary kind of fix. Most adventures are designed around the elite stat array, so if a PC derivates much from that model then you will have major problems. If you are experienced enough, you can work around the types of problems that arise from high stats, but I wouldn't recommend trying it without extensive experience being a DM. Either way, good luck. If all else fails have them remake their characters with more normalized stats.
You could have them reroll ability scores or use point buy, you could slow level gain, or you could beef up all the monsters. I think the second choice us the easiest.
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Ask yourself or them whether they enjoy feeling so powerful that everything is easy. If they honestly enjoy that more than overcoming genuine challenges, then maybe everything is fine. Of course, if *you* don't enjoy it, that's also relevant, but just be careful not to assume that there's only one right way to play the game--namely, where everything is challenging. Some people enjoy feeling powerful all the time, and that's fine too. ('Munchkin' is a pejorative label for this style of gaming; I'm trying to say that it's a legitimate way to have fun and so doesn't deserve pejorative labels.)
Talk to them. Tell them you made a mistake and that it turns out its nearly impossible to balance encounters properly. See if they too think that they're characters are ridicilously overpowered and make things too easy.
If they agree with that, then it will be easier to convince them to work with a point buy. 25 points are still alot, and they'll have a 17 or 18 somewhere most likely, so they don't feel like you're nerfing them too much, but it won't be as crazy.
Ask yourself or them whether they enjoy feeling so powerful that everything is easy. If they honestly enjoy that more than overcoming genuine challenges, then maybe everything is fine. Of course, if *you* don't enjoy it, that's also relevant, but just be careful not to assume that there's only one right way to play the game--namely, where everything is challenging. Some people enjoy feeling powerful all the time, and that's fine too. ('Munchkin' is a pejorative label for this style of gaming; I'm trying to say that it's a legitimate way to have fun and so doesn't deserve pejorative labels.)
Well after having to look up the definition of pejorative,I can tell you that both sides are slightly annoyed by the way things are going. One of the characters who played dnd previously said last time "Normally fights aren't supposed to be like 'boop' dead, 'boop' dead, oh a boss with triple health... 'boop' dead." That being said i believe that with the helpful advice given i should be able to close the gap a little in a way that they wont be fearing for their lives but at the same time the wizard's beat stick wont be the primary form of execution either. I definitely like the advanced stat since its less headache for me since i can keep more true to the adventure path without getting too exotic with the number or type of creatures. I also think that the witholding levels will help slightly as well, they might get annoyed but if i throw in a holy hand grenade of antioc or the like I think they will ok. Thank you all for the advice, i wasn't expecting so many responses in so little time!
CHEAT
Its my favorite piece of advice to give people.
If it feels like the party is going to tear the monsters apart then just let the monster take a couple of extra hits, it doesn't really change anything and makes the fight feel more challenging.
The issue of having higher stats fades to a certain point as the party gains levels.
If you don't want to just cheat as the fight is unfolding then add a level or 2 of warrior to everything. It will give them a better BAB, gives them more HP and does not really make the monster that much more threatening.
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Give them an impossible encounter, wipe the party, start over with reasonable stats. Problem solved.
Unless you use the Tarrasque, don't expect the "impossible" encounter to necessarily be impossible, though. Which only winds up with worse issues, if they win. And no change, if they are smart and run away.
I would advise taking a bit of time, either by email/phone between sessions, or at the beginning of the next session to discuss the situation with your players.
Explain that the stat generation system you all used made for PCs that are extremely overpowered for the AP, as that was designed to be played with PCs using a 15 point buy.
Maybe have them "cost out" what their PCs' stats would be in point buy. If they do range from a minimum of 14 to 18 in all stats, you are easily talking something over 30 point buys.
PFS Organized Play uses a 20 point buy, and gets a lot of comments on how that can turn encounters of appropriate CR into easy street.
Give them an impossible encounter, wipe the party, start over with reasonable stats. Problem solved.
Don't do that, that's just passive-aggressive behavior and will be recognized by the group as such most likely. And that will just cause bad blood.
Even if they agree that things need to change they might not like getting their characters killed.
Give them an impossible encounter, wipe the party, start over with reasonable stats. Problem solved.
Yeah, I think that would be going a little too extreme and would be a headache to somehow integrate new characters to where they are in the AP. Alternatively starting from day 0 would be a dissapointment since that would be like 20hrs of gameplay wasted. At the most extreme I would input the alternate reality clause where everything happened exactly the same except in this reality they were not all demigods. I will try the raising the badassedness of the bad guys first, but nuking their stats is an option i have in reserve, thanks for the input.
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Do not TPK and start over. Do not nerf your party's abilities if you can help it at all. This will feel like a loss. People don't like losses. It's basic psychology.
Use a combination of boosting enemies and slowing level gain (still nerfing your party, but doesn't feel like a loss) until your party feels they are adequately challenged again. You've got plenty of ideas how in this thread. And in your next campaign, remember it's always easier and more fun to boost players' abilities later in the campaign if you feel you want more power. ("Oh look, you found a magic fountain! Permanently increase one of your ability scores by 2!")
Give them an impossible encounter, wipe the party, start over with reasonable stats. Problem solved.Unless you use the Tarrasque, don't expect the "impossible" encounter to necessarily be impossible, though. Which only winds up with worse issues, if they win. And no change, if they are smart and run away.
I was in a campaign years ago where the DM thought we were getting too powerful, so he kept throwing murderous encounters at us with enemies that had stockpiles of magic items. We would overcome and ealk away with their magic items. The problem snowballed as he continued this strategy. We were having fun surviving murderous encounters and reaping the riches. It came to an end when he finally made a fight custom built to take down each PC by targetting everyone's weakness. We were captured and thrown on a slave ship, where the campaign continued with an escape. The blow had been struck however and interest in the campaign dwindled soon after. The end.
What ability scores did they end up with?they all have at least an 18 in their best stat and their lowest stat is probably a 14 with range being more towards the high end than the lower.
Actually I am in a game rolled with 4d6-drop-the-lowest and most of the party started with at least an 18 in a their major stat, some more than that. The DM just reduced our progression a little until we faced serious challenges in the adventure (about 1 or 2 steps below where we should be). Or you could restrict treasure so they are down on WBL, either method works.
One thing to remember: Like bonuses do not stack. If they get two morale bonuses, they don't add up, only the largest is used. Pathfinder reworked a lot of bonuses like these so pay attention to what they are. So if the warlord and the bard grant morale bonuses, only one of them counts!
thanks for the clarification on buffs, i was not aware. that should definitely drop things down a bit. Just a quick question though, like buffs do not stack (ie +1 attack, and +1 attack would be +1 attack) but if buffs give multiple abilities do those stack or do you only chose the more benificial buff? (ie buff A gives +1 attack, +1 ac while buff B gives +1 attack, +1 saving throws. so would the end result be +1 attack, +1 ac, +1 saving throws or would you have to decide between A and B?)
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To expand the above, you choose between the most beneficial bonus of each type for each attribute, you don't have to choose between buffs. And as Mike Linder said, buffs of different types do stack.
For example, a bard is using Inspire Courage. That's a +1 morale bonus on saves against fear and charm, and a +1 competence bonus to attacks and weapon damage.
The bard then casts Heroism on the Ranger. That's a +2 morale bonus on attacks, saving throws, and skill checks.
The ranger is now under effects that grant:
+1 morale bonus on saves against fear and charm
+2 morale bonus on all saves
+1 competence bonus on attacks
+2 morale bonus on attacks
+1 competence bonus on weapon damage
+2 morale bonus on skill checks
The bonuses on saves do not stack since they are both the morale bonus type. The Ranger gets a +2 bonus to all saves, and does not get a +3 bonus against fear and charm.
The bonuses to attack rolls are of different types (morale and competence). They stack - the ranger gets +3 to attack.
Since there is only one bonus on weapon damage and skill checks, just apply those bonuses as-is.
So the ranger gets in total:
+2 on saves
+3 on attacks
+1 on weapon damage
+2 on skill checks
More information on bonus types and stacking here
Yeah, you might want to take a look at at bonus types. Essentially most bonuses have a specific type (like moral, enhancement, competence, armor, dodge, et cetra). Other bonuses will not identify a type.
For example, the Bracers of Armor state: "These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor."
Later on it says, " If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning."
So the "armor bonus" on the bracers of armor DO NOT stack with the "armor bonus" of wearing a breastplate. They are the same type of bonus.
The Belt of Giant Strength states: "This belt is a thick leather affair, often decorated with huge metal buckles. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6."
The spell Bulls Strength states: "The subject becomes stronger. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier."
So if a wizard cast Bull's Strength on someone wearing a Belt of Giant Strength, only the highest bonus would count. They don't stack!
If a bonus is NOT SPECIFIED, it usually stacks. Also, some bonuses have special rules. Like dodge: "Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other."
You might want to "audit" your players' characters with them to verify the bonuses to hit, ac, damage, et cetera are calculated correctly.
Racial and Dodge bonuses also all stack. Competence and Untyped bonuses stack unless they are from the same source.
If the main issue you have with the PCs is that they have really high stats, then up the monster's stats by throwing on a free (i.e., no +1 CR bump for exp purposes) "advanced" template. You could also max out hps if you like.
I can't comment as to the warlord class but it sounds like reworking that to fit an archetype within Pathfinder might be a good solution.
And AC isn't something you have to fret over too much, in my opinion, since there are other targets available who presumably don't have 27 ACs. Hit them instead.
Here's a brief blurb about the advanced template in case you're not familiar with it. Good luck!
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
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Racial and Dodge bonuses also all stack. Competence and Untyped bonuses stack unless they are from the same source.
I think you mean circumstance bonuses. Competence bonuses do not stack.
All these exceptions are why it's important to look at the bonus stacking rules (again, found here).
If you're new to playing as well as DMing, you should definitely take an extra careful look at your PCs' abilities and work out the buff stacking ahead of time. Even experienced players can have difficulty keeping track of it sometimes - I've definitely forgotten to apply bardic music benefits at times, or a penalty from being shaken.
Also be careful about effect durations. They tend to be short at low levels, so your PCs' buffs might expire before the end of combat.
well it seems like your PCs are just as aware of this problem as you are. talk to them. if they dont mind rerolling to keep thins simpler for you and more fun for everyone then give them a dice pool or a point buy. just remember that you have a relatively strong buffing party so they are going to feel relatively stronger while buffed (also look into that 27 AC because i cant imagine that being possible at level 1)
as far as 5 characters for a 4 man AP dont worry too much about it. it will be a bit easier at first but the experience gains being spread thin like that will eventually lead to lower level characters and the challenges will toughen up a bit.
If they dont want to reroll and want to keep these crazy high stats. (apparently the ease of combats isnt too much of a problem to them if theyre unwilling to change the cause of the problem) then you will have to up the challenge rating on everything (dont up the xp though) its tough on you but well its really all you can do.
Racial and Dodge bonuses also all stack. Competence and Untyped bonuses stack unless they are from the same source.I think you mean circumstance bonuses. Competence bonuses do not stack.
Woops, yes. Circumstance bonuses stack. Thinking about the two extensively confuses me so sometimes I say the wrong one.
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If I were a player here, I know i would have preferred to remake the characters with a sane point buy (15 or 20) now rather than slower progression througout the AP. Your players might feel the same way. Talk to them and ask them what solution they prefer.
Note it's not slower progression through the plot but slower progression through levels until things are balanced. Though you're right that if it's discussed beforehand the party might prefer faster level progression for voluntarily dropping ability scores, especially if it doesn't unduly affect anyone's build (for example, someone took a feat that required an ability score he can't get any more). My reaction against dropping ability scores was based on how I might feel if a DM just suddenly announced that everyones' ability scores would be dropped.
I'd still recommend boosting the monsters as a first tack, since then the party gets nice abilities and a challenging fight as well. But a conversation with your players sounds like a good idea.
Also the classical "use tactics" could help here.
Don't let the monsters simply swarm the PCs, use the terrain, use combat maneuvers, remember to have a surprise round when applicable and absolutely research the spells of caster opponents. If things still are too easy consider adding character levels to a few baddies and equip them with depletable Magic Items (Wand of Magic Missiles, 12 charges left or Potions of Heroism or whatnot).
For instance
Thank you all for your various ideas, we decided that because of the fact that i am going to be at sea for the next four months that we will just transition into a campaign that i am working on designed around their higher stat block. They agreed that the current way of walking over bosses etc. that something needed to change, and i tried to hold them down on level and used the advanced template but it was still annoying having to change all of the encounters in the AP so I talked to them about cutting off after the first part of the AP and transitioning into my campaign and they didn't have a problem with it. Due to time constraints i had Nualia attack the village with a horde of goblins. After fighting a wave or two of goblins I had them face Nualia with Orick, Lyrie and a yeth hound. They took her down fairly easily at full health and got everything else down low enough that i said lamashtu granted her wish and in a ball of fire (which killed the the few standing lieutenatns) she became the Demon of Sandpoint. Not using the trample ability and taking the loss to attack out of the breath weapon they managed to defeat it. They did all that at level 2... nualia was rated CR 5 and her lieutenants were CR 3s. The demon was a CR 8 before being handicapped slightly. They said they liked being superpowered and with the campaign i have in mind this is probably a good thing, plus i get to throw the book(bestiary) at them so to speak.
Another thing if you experience this type of thing again:
Simple templates. Can be used to easily advance monsters. Such as an Advanced(x2) Beetle.
In one of the forums there is a thread based around abusing them to create CR+0 template combos.
Such as a Young Advanced Human.
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I have been playing fore a while and ive learned a few things that id like to share with you.
First off, averages will make life easy. Tailor encounters based off of average to hit and ac of party. Average ac of party will give u a base to go off to determine how often u want ur monsters to hit the party and getting the average to hit of the party will help u determine how often the party will hit ur monsters. This way u can have balanced encounters that can last as long as u think they should.
Second, u dont want to make the party rich but at the same time u dont want to make the party poor. To much money will destroy ur game and to little party will make things to challenging for u and them. the key to this is to give the party non magic gear that they can use or sell in town to earn there cash.
Third, try ur level best not to give any creature the party encounters good crud. Remember if its there they will will touch and they will take. A group of mine went to the point of literally stealing every thing in a house including the floor boards and nails and what ever may have been attached to the walls.
Finally, all actions have a positive and negative reaction. If they do good reward them for there good if they do bar penalize them for thee bad. Example, party kills a little girl a day or 2 later guards are searching for missing girl a day or 2 later after that guards find girls body. Guards place area on high alert and look through all homes and establishment trying to find the people that did it. If they get caught have them serve jail time or be executed for there crimes like in real life and give them the opportunity to redeem fr there action or get themselves in2 further trouble based on how they act.
I hope what i had to say will aid u in the future.