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Well, there's another "Paladin Thread" detailing how Paladins should be this or that and how the "other side" is wrong
I'd like to keep this on the basics of the Paladin class. How the expected roles some feel the Paladins SHOULD play are IMO, not that great of an idea when one dissects the Paladin down to the Core
Let's start with the iconic "Human Paladin"
Let's use the "Elite Stats" 15 - 14 - 13 -12 - 10 - 8
So Let's build the Paladin
Str 15 - Good
Dex 10 - Wears heavy armor
Con 12 - Fighting types can use this
Int 8 + 2 = 10 - The +2 from being Human saves him from being below average
Wis 13 - Spells
Cha 14 - Paladin's Bonuses are off of Charisma
Okay this Paladin gets 2pts + 0 Int Bonus + 1 human = 3pts/level skill points of which Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int) are Class Skill. As for Feats, this Human Paladin gets 2 Feats, 1st Level and being Human
The Paladin gets these class abilities at 1st level:
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
As we can see, Paladins aren't made for doing 2 things. They are fighters but the fight they excel at are against EVIL opponents. As for determining who is redeemable, etc, that should be left to preferably the clerics of their or allied faiths or trusted companions
Even a cursory glance shows that if a Paladin were to divide up their skill points in the 6 skills of Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge Religion, Ride, and Sense Motive at 10th level, barring the Paladin not putting their Stat Bonuses into Intelligence (most likely Str and Wis), they'd finally have 5 Ranks in each of those 6 Skills
That will mean the Paladin completely ignores Spellcraft and negatives for his armor when riding are not covered well
But turning to what a Paladin does, I like the first paragraph in the SRD:
"Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
We already know that Paladins are a rare breed. Their very first job is to pledge their sword vs evil in battle. Next, their role is pretty specific as well"
"Role: Paladins serve as beacons for their allies within the chaos of battle. While deadly opponents of evil, they can also empower goodly souls to aid in their crusades. Their magic and martial skills also make them well suited to defending others and blessing the fallen with the strength to continue fighting."
I see a lot about battle, crusade, deadly opponent, martial, defending and continue to fighting. I don't see much about coddling evil but a great deal on fighting and killing evil.
Now, I'm not saying that is the only and all it should be. Should a DM want to have a Paladin play as a Celibate, Merciful, Poverty, redeemer, etc, something like the old 3.5 BoED, great!
Caveat: GIVE THEM THE FEAT FOR FREE AND GIVE THEM THE BENEFITS OF THOSE FEATS AS WELL
That does 3 things:
1: Makes it far more clear how you expect the Paladin to be played
2: Makes it a gradual step by step "fall from Grace" - not to say, drinking heavily the night before, running his sword through the bar patrons, having his way with the bar maids and going across town and slaughtering the orphans won't get anything less than a stern warning
3: The crimes and the punishment are far more equitable. The Paladin getting frisky? Wham, bye-bye Celibacy (although that's not really what celibacy means) not Bye-Bye all Paladin powers
Any thoughts?
Pathfinder paladins use Cha for spells. Dump Wis.
This is not really a rules discussion.
I think the best way to roleplay a Paladin that I've seen is a friend that loved comics and essentially made Captain America (Captain Andorra for Golarion haha). Even had a Shield of Returning. But it was very well done.
Having an option for paladins to lose some of their spells/class featurees instead of all of them is interesting, and I think it could work if done right. It would take a lot of work to do that IMO though, and although the BoED feats would give a good starting place it probably wouldn't help all Pathfinder players.
I prefer for a paladin's fall from grace to be a single, complete, and traumatic event - I take away all their powers at once, but I rarely do so without any kind of warning. Unless they commit some kind of truly heinous act, paladins in my game who somehow violate their code will receive some kind of warning from their deity. I had a paladin of Saranrae in a Carrion Crown game who broke into a mausoleum and took some magic items that technically belonged to the church (though he did intend to put them to good use), and he woke up the next day with inexplicable sunburns.
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Damn, should've had more coffee
Yes the Paladin doesn't need Wisdom nor Int really does he?
Str 15
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 14
So does anyone really want a Paladin who is just below Ave IQ and definitely on the Unwise side of the ledger?
I take it meta-gaming is the order of the day?
Is this a rules question? I'd say so given how many Paladins lose their powers over DM rule decisions
I'd swap Dex and Con on that last line up. Full plate has a max Dex of +1 anyway, so barring armor made from special materials a 12 is all you need (13 if you want to be able to take Dodge). Of course I would probably leave Con at 12(ish) anyway (what with already having a d10 HD, the ability to heal yourself quickly, and potentially a favored class bonus to hp) and put my +2 human bonus into Str or Cha.
Using the elite array I'd likely go:
Str 15 or 17
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 14 or 16
Damn, should've had more coffee
Yes the Paladin doesn't need Wisdom nor Int really does he?
Str 15
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 14So does anyone really want a Paladin who is just below Ave IQ and definitely on the Unwise side of the ledger?
I take it meta-gaming is the order of the day?
Is this a rules question? I'd say so given how many Paladins lose their powers over DM rule decisions
Not it isn't, not by your first post anyway.
The rules state what makes a paladin lose his powers. GM's just decide to take liberty with the code. As an example a paladin has to be honorable, but that is a subjective term which will vary by GM. In short there will never be concrete X,Y,Z rules for a paladin falling, but with that aside that section of the paladin writeup was not even addressed. Mostly it was addressing how to build a paladin, and a few other things sprinkled in.
Damn, should've had more coffee
Yes the Paladin doesn't need Wisdom nor Int really does he?
Mechanically, no.
OTOH, do you want your soldier of righteousness to be stupid and foolish? :D
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Damn, should've had more coffee
Yes the Paladin doesn't need Wisdom nor Int really does he?
Mechanically, no.
OTOH, do you want your soldier of righteousness to be stupid and foolish? :D
No I don't, but that is not up to the player but the dice or PB
Personally I think the Paladin, if they are going to have to have deep thoughts of morality, justice, etc, should be "higher stat" characters played by those who've been playing for a while
Then again the idea, if for class balance, that doesn't work out that well.
But if one is to play a Paladin with all the little caveats and that a DM can pull their powers, they are woefully under powered and to keep wraith happy, the rules say nothing about doing many of the "21st Police Duties" and the other things that Paladins are saddled with
I was done with my complaints. :)
For the most part I wanted you to focus on the code which is what decides if a paladin loses powers by the rules since it seemed that trying to find concrete rules for a pally losing his powers was the intent of the opening post, which went into building(more like the advice area).
PS:This all assumes that the discussion is about making sure a paladin obeys the code, and this is not about suggestions on building a paladin.
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I was done with my complaints. :)
For the most part I wanted you to focus on the code which is what decides if a paladin loses powers by the rules since it seemed that trying to find concrete rules for a pally losing his powers was the intent of the opening post, which went into building(more like the advice area).
PS:This all assumes that the discussion is about making sure a paladin obeys the code, and this is not about suggestions on building a paladin.
I just had to give you grief :D
As to the building of a Paladin, I think it helps with those who want to add rules of engagement, behaviour, etc to Paladins that, as written in SRD, it just don't have the horsepower to perform
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My advice for roleplaying paladins.
Nothin here to see
Just imminent danger
In the middle of it, me
Yes Captain Hammer's here
Hair Blowing in the Breeze
The day needs my saving expertise
A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do
It seems destiny ends with me saving you
The only doom that's looming is you loving me to death
So I'll give you a sec to catch your breath
I am not finding the Rules Question. Did I miss it?
Does this belong in the Advice, or General Discussion forum?
There is no rules question. It is more of an advice type post. :)
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I am not finding the Rules Question. Did I miss it?
Does this belong in the Advice, or General Discussion forum?
The "Rules" is that the Paladin class RAW is not suitable as is for adding 21st Century morality.
It is more of a pre-emptive rules to discuss what a Paladin does and doesn't have to do as per RAW
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There is no rules question. It is more of an advice type post. :)I am not finding the Rules Question. Did I miss it?
Does this belong in the Advice, or General Discussion forum?
I'm hoping to do more than that.
Pre-empting the rules battles when it comes to the Pally, letting DMs know what the RAW says and discussing them.
If it were Advice, it would be my take and not so much the RAW and the way they are to be used. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but I'd like to see how the RAW might be used to form a consensus on what the RAW is and what are "bells and whistles" many DMs like to add as restrictions to the class.
Makes the class as written harder to play and weaker with respect to the other classes who really can't be messed with as deeply as the Paladin
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Since this is a roleplaying question, I will offer what I think is the single most missing aspect of most paladins- having a closer personal connection to their god. Their powers don't come from belonging to a paladin's club, personal skill, or some arcane source, they come from the patron god(dess). I have seen a fair number of paladins whose relationship to their deity is a name written on their character sheet, and thats as far as it goes. GMs as well are guilty of letting this go, since all it takes is a few divine messenger interactions to change this aspect.
Part of the conversation that should take place between a paladin and his GM (to set the understanding for what is and is not okay behavior) should include how the paladin feels about his god. For this reason, I believe that paladins, along with inquisitors, should receive regular dreams, omens, and visions from their divine source. While it may surprise you that clerics are not on that list, they already sort of have their "mission" if you will, and are expected to have faith that when they are needed, they will be guided. Clerics are sort of the generic support structure for the deity.
The paladin and inquisitor are more of the guided missile system/James Bond's of a particular deity. A Sarenrae paladin who was once a thief and was redeemed into a paladin (backstory, maybe traits) might be guided towards missions related to stolen property, brigandry, or other tasks more specialized to them. Not always of course, but sometimes. This is the deity selecting the right "tool" for the right job.
Because of this, the idea that a paladin's fall from grace is a sudden unwarned event to me is fairly disturbing. Yes, it gets their attention, but their close relationship with their deity means they should get warnings previously and have a fairly clear idea through divine communication of what is expected and okay from their god(dess). Think of it like a little kid and a parent. They pretty much know what is going to get them in trouble, so if they do it anyway, it isn't surprising.
Just my 2 cents...
I am not finding the Rules Question. Did I miss it?
Does this belong in the Advice, or General Discussion forum?
The "Rules" is that the Paladin class RAW is not suitable as is for adding 21st Century morality.
It is more of a pre-emptive rules to discuss what a Paladin does and doesn't have to do as per RAW
The games does not use 21st centuray morality however, which is quiet subjective. In Fantasy land evil and good, as an example are concrete things, and not open to interpretation. Adding flexibility to it would be outside of the rules and be more akin to houserules.
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The games does not use 21st centuray morality however, which is quiet subjective. In Fantasy land evil and good, as an example are concrete things, and not open to interpretation. Adding flexibility to it would be outside of the rules and be more akin to houserules.I am not finding the Rules Question. Did I miss it?
Does this belong in the Advice, or General Discussion forum?
The "Rules" is that the Paladin class RAW is not suitable as is for adding 21st Century morality.
It is more of a pre-emptive rules to discuss what a Paladin does and doesn't have to do as per RAW
And I agree with that. There is nothing in the RAW that a Paladin is the police, arresting people and bringing them back for trial
Nothing in the RAW states that yet that is a place where Pallys fall often
There is no rules question. It is more of an advice type post. :)I am not finding the Rules Question. Did I miss it?
Does this belong in the Advice, or General Discussion forum?
I'm hoping to do more than that.
Pre-empting the rules battles when it comes to the Pally, letting DMs know what the RAW says and discussing them.
If it were Advice, it would be my take and not so much the RAW and the way they are to be used. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but I'd like to see how the RAW might be used to form a consensus on what the RAW is and what are "bells and whistles" many DMs like to add as restrictions to the class.
Makes the class as written harder to play and weaker with respect to the other classes who really can't be messed with as deeply as the Paladin
I would start with the code and try to break it down because no matter how the pally is built the code, or at least the GM's interpretation of the code, is what takes the powers away every time. I will add that trying to break the code down has been done before. It is quiet inflexible by RAW in certain areas, and comes down to GM Fiat in others. The issue with the class is that it already is hard to play, and give it any sort of personality if the GM is really strict.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Committing an/one evil act makes you lose your powers.
Traveling with those who constantly offend your code which has additional requirements, listed in the second paragraph, also causes issues if you don't atone. How much should you atone, and how much and to what degree others can offend your code before it affects you is not mentioned. That makes it GM Fiat territory. How much you can violate the 2nd paragraph is also GM Fiat.Of course the issue of what is evil is also up for debate at times. I think the BovD(3.5 book) covers it well, but PF is not 3.5 many will argue....
I think creating an exhaustive list of evil acts is going to be hard to do, much less proving all of them evil by RAW. I do have to go now. I will check back to see what comes up later.
I am not finding the Rules Question. Did I miss it?
Does this belong in the Advice, or General Discussion forum?
The "Rules" is that the Paladin class RAW is not suitable as is for adding 21st Century morality.
It is more of a pre-emptive rules to discuss what a Paladin does and doesn't have to do as per RAW
I use 21st Century morality because that is what I am and my players recognise the easiest. I'm not a 15th Century peasant or a 17th Century warrior so I go with what is recognise "good" or "evil" behaviour. So by using a default morality (ie 21st Century) its a pretty safe assumption that most players and GMs have some sense or good/evil.
I would go as far as saying that 99% of all the problems caused by the Paladin's morality is down between the GM and Player not working together on a "code" and Dick GM's looking for ways to make a Paladin fall as a reason for "some exciting roleplaying opportunity"
The class as RAW is suitable for present day morality if the GM isn't being a dick and looking to screw the Paladin player over. That is the real problem of the class!
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Roleplaying a Paladin? Easy.
Respect legitimate authority (make sure you keep "legitimate" they keyword instead of "authority"), be honorable in your actions, and do the right thing.
No, none of the above means you have to be a "nice-guy." In fact, you can be a total tool that's gruff, unlikeable, and even somewhat violent in your nature.
Because - You're a warrior.
You're not a Priest, meant to educate and spread the faith. If people want a priest, the church is right over there, in town *points*.
You're not a healer, meant to hospital the sick and tend the wounded. You have healing abilities to keep yourself alive against the forces of evil. Should you try your best to keep your allies alive? Yes. But you can be alive and stable and still be at negative hit points. Your job isn't to make them comfortable.
Your job is to slay evil and protect the innocent. You are equal parts judge and executioner, and fate/some god has seen fit to give you the exact tools you need for these jobs (Detect Evil and Smite Evil).
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Interesting Points:
By RAW, is a Paladin allowed to be "Judge Jury and Executioner"?
By RAW, what is a Paladin supposed to do with a creature captured via combat?
As to 21st Century Morality, while we all (er most) live in it, should those be the ideals that a Paladin strives to get to?
How does, rather how must a Paladin approach Evil:
Weaker than the evil?
Same power as the evil?
Stronger than the evil?
There are more RAW questions
Interesting Points:
By RAW, is a Paladin allowed to be "Judge Jury and Executioner"?
If authorised by the Paladin's church (ie by the Clerics of the Deity) then yes.
If its spelled out in the Paladin's code that he can can act that way, yes.
If the Paladin is unsure then it would be his duty to bring X to the legitimate authorities unless doing so would cause a greater evil to remain at large but certainly not if its just expedient to the Paladin (player)...
If the Paladin did act as JJ&E then a decent GM would send a little warning first time around and (roleplay) instruct the Paladin (player) via the church what is expected of him the next time it occurs.
EDIT: I don't think there is anything RAW... what we have is a dozen or so sentences which are trying to define an abstract concept and turn it into an Artificial Game Construct. As GM I use a site where someone has done the hard work for me and has defined all alignments, gives examples of "honourable" and "dishonourable" in view of each alignment.
Its not perfect BUT as a player at my table you will have a clear view of how I perceive each alignment. If you chose to ignore it fine, your PC's alignment will change.
Interesting Points:
By RAW, is a Paladin allowed to be "Judge Jury and Executioner"?
Situational, same as everyone else. Bandits attack you? Nobody's going to fault you for killing them.
By RAW, what is a Paladin supposed to do with a creature captured via combat?
Same thing anybody with 'Good' tagged in their alignment. Haul them off to legit authority if such exists. If no such thing exists, be judge/jury/executioner as necessary.
As to 21st Century Morality, while we all (er most) live in it, should those be the ideals that a Paladin strives to get to?
Problem here is that 21st century morality doesn't have to deal with flying fire breathing lizards or shambling corpses. Where the world is a lot more dangerous, what you can/cannot get away with, morally, will become more flexible. If by RAW Orcs are evil marauding hordes, by RAW the Paladin can mow them down without remorse - they can't be redeemed or reasoned with.
How does, rather how must a Paladin approach Evil:
Weaker than the evil?
Same power as the evil?
Stronger than the evil?
Same as any other 'good' character. Killing out of hand should be the last option, and settling things peaceably should be attempted where reasonably possible. The trick is 'reasonably possible'. A marauding orc band doesn't stop to parley, and someone in the middle of an evil act should be stopped before the talking begins.
The Paladin also has to remember that his life and continued existence has value - he might prioritize the lives of others, but that doesn't make his life worthless. It's a resource to spend wisely, not squander suicidally. If he can withdraw to a superior position, he should do so. If innocents will die and there is nothing he can reasonably do to prevent it, he should accept that there was nothing he could do about it - or at least focus on what he CAN accomplish that will help people rather than what he cannot.
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Interesting Points:
By RAW, is a Paladin allowed to be "Judge Jury and Executioner"?
If authorised by the Paladin's church (ie by the Clerics of the Deity) then yes.
If its spelled out in the Paladin's code that he can can act that way, yes.
If the Paladin is unsure then it would be his duty to bring X to the legitimate authorities unless doing so would cause a greater evil to remain at large but certainly not if its just expedient to the Paladin (player)...
If the Paladin did act as JJ&E then a decent GM would send a little warning first time around and (roleplay) instruct the Paladin (player) via the church what is expected of him the next time it occurs.
EDIT: I don't think there is anything RAW... what we have is a dozen or so sentences which are trying to define an abstract concept and turn it into an Artificial Game Construct. As GM I use a site where someone has done the hard work for me and has defined all alignments, gives examples of "honourable" and "dishonourable" in view of each alignment.
Its not perfect BUT as a player at my table you will have a clear view of how I perceive each alignment. If you chose to ignore it fine, your PC's alignment will change.
Nice answers but I'm still trying to talk to the basics
In the Write Up for Paladins, it states they are the Sword arm of the good gods, forces of justice etc, why can't they being for Justice do what the law would do and kill them even if they surrendered via force of arms?
RP is not a consideration at this part, just raw mechanics
In the Write Up for Paladins, it states they are the Sword arm of the good gods, forces of justice etc, why can't they being for Justice do what the law would do and kill them even if they surrendered via force of arms?
RP is not a consideration at this part, just raw mechanics
Mechanically, if you want to be dispensing justice, you should have Knowledge: Law on your Paladin sheet. Then you can make your skill roll and determine appropriate penalty based on available evidence.
Historically, surrendering via force of arms is a mitigating circumstance. It's an agreement between two forces that if the surrendering party lays down their arms, that their lives will be spared (at a minimum). By accepting surrender, you agree to this term of surrender and are thus legally obligated to NOT kill them (so long as they remain a prisoner and do not resist or attempt to escape). Killing them at that point would be dishonorable.
OTOH if you knock someone unconscious and take them prisoner, they didn't surrender. Additionally, you are NOT obligated to accept every surrender, even though you are Good. This is again where having Knowledge: Law is useful. If an evil cultist has just slaughtered innocent children as sacrifices to his dread god, and you can point to the corpse in the room, you're not really expected to accept any surrenders.
Now, if you're not acting as field judge as a Paladin, you can haul the bad guys off to legit authority and THEY can judge them, up to and including death, and your hands are clean - they surrendered to you and you passed them off to proper authorities, your job is done.
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In the Write Up for Paladins, it states they are the Sword arm of the good gods, forces of justice etc, why can't they being for Justice do what the law would do and kill them even if they surrendered via force of arms?
RP is not a consideration at this part, just raw mechanics
Mechanically, if you want to be dispensing justice, you should have Knowledge: Law on your Paladin sheet. Then you can make your skill roll and determine appropriate penalty based on available evidence.
Historically, surrendering via force of arms is a mitigating circumstance. It's an agreement between two forces that if the surrendering party lays down their arms, that their lives will be spared (at a minimum). By accepting surrender, you agree to this term of surrender and are thus legally obligated to NOT kill them (so long as they remain a prisoner and do not resist or attempt to escape). Killing them at that point would be dishonorable.
OTOH if you knock someone unconscious and take them prisoner, they didn't surrender. Additionally, you are NOT obligated to accept every surrender, even though you are Good. This is again where having Knowledge: Law is useful. If an evil cultist has just slaughtered innocent children as sacrifices to his dread god, and you can point to the corpse in the room, you're not really expected to accept any surrenders.
Now, if you're not acting as field judge as a Paladin, you can haul the bad guys off to legit authority and THEY can judge them, up to and including death, and your hands are clean - they surrendered to you and you passed them off to proper authorities, your job is done.
Good points
As was pointed out earlier it really does matter what the "good" and "evil" mean and how is that dispensed.
From RAW Alingment makes it pretty clear Evil is EVIL not evil. Being mean all by itself is not Evil. Being mean as you pour more oil "onto the pole a person is desperately trying to climb not to be eaten alive by what's in the Pit" is an Evil act
But the rules I fear are not concrete and the DM MUST tell the Pally player what is expected of them. Saying a collection of words, "chivalry", "Honorable" (which in Klingon I think is the same word as Victory - jk but not by much), "Mercy" really mean with concrete examples and more
The other question is what if DM rules that the Pally is not a Judge, Jury and Executioner but has to take them to somewhere where there is an authority the Paladin thinks is legit, how far is too far? To that point, what if the Pally gets there and the kingdom/City State/etc is none to pleased with the Pally and Co dragging a problem way outside their borders into theirs?
As for Knowledge and other skills to help them determine what the laws are, at 2+Int Bonus a level, that's not a great start
What I give to my players to define Lawful Good
Might not agree with what is on this site but its a lot better in explaining the Artificial Game Construct that is alignment. Its a decent place to start with.
I do have "codes" in my game for most classes. Even the Wizardy ones have a code of sorts which applies to any college that they may belong to.
Part of the problem maybe that unlike 1ed the Paladin is the only class which has anything in RAW about if he fails to follow his alignment. I remember 1ed was a pain tracking every PC's alignment which had to be done as shifting alignments had a really negative impact on all classes not just Paladins or those with a RAW code.
As for Knowledge and other skills to help them determine what the laws are, at 2+Int Bonus a level, that's not a great start
All the more reason to not dump stats. IMO the Paladin shouldn't be dumping ANY stat, though I understand how people want high CHA/STR on their Pallys and not much else (though I don't agree with the min/max crowd on this).
You don't need tons of points, though. K:Local is actually the skill to know the laws, and you need to hit a DC of 10. Take 1 rank and you can take 10 in most situations, even though it's not a class skill and you might be sucking an INT penalty if you dumped INT.
Interesting Points:
By RAW, is a Paladin allowed to be "Judge Jury and Executioner"?
By RAW, nothing is determined. This is left up to the player/GM.
By RAW, what is a Paladin supposed to do with a creature captured via combat?
How was it captured? What was the scenario in which it was captured, and was "capture" really the right call?
As to 21st Century Morality, while we all (er most) live in it, should those be the ideals that a Paladin strives to get to?
Of course not. It's a silly idea to hold a Paladin to modern-day morality when he does not live in the modern day. Times are different. Magic and monsters are real. The worlds between Pathfinder's and ours are VASTLY different, and should be treated differently. (Unless, of course, you're playing in a modern campaign, but who does that with PF?)
How does, rather how must a Paladin approach Evil:
Weaker than the evil?
Same power as the evil?
Stronger than the evil?
Not sure I totally understand the question. Can you elaborate?
i am finding this discussion very interesting. I am of a mind that the whole point of a crusading paladin going out into the world as an adventurer is to act as judge jury and executioner, otherwise why would a paladin be adventuring?
A paladin could be adventuring simply to make the world better.
She seeks out villages plagued by marauding Ettins, lands beset with roving undead, places where hope has been lost and people need a light to guide them.
Or she could be a hammer of faith, prosecuting the war that exists between her god and it's rival (Orcus, Gruumsh, Evilita, etc.) by attacking opposing temples and organizations.
Or she could be an agent of the soverign of the nation, part of an order of knights that metes the King's Justice.
Lots of reasons to be a Paladin. And each reason could result in a different way to approach playing the Paladin.
Consider all of the Jedi in Star Wars. You could roleplay just about any one of them as a paladin of one sort or another.
The key is, a paladin lives by a CREED. How he feels, expresses or lives up to it is entirely up to the player, so long as he lives by the code of his deity.
Heck, a lot of old cowboy movies and even modern action-hero movies can be interpreted as paladin stories.
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What Feat?
There are no Paladins. Only Antipaladins. Since the board here has made it clear that a pally must obey not only every poster's modern ideas of morality and ethics but also must obey the various Golarion deities ideas. Thus, every paladin has fallen. usually before 2nd level.
Of course not punishing Evil is evil, and thus a paladin would fall.
But of course, so then would be punishing them too much. Falls.
A Paladin must punish juuust right, Like in Goldilocks.
In fact if a paladin does anything but lay in bed with his head under the covers- he falls.
Hmm, no- wait- Sloth is a deadly sin too. So, that's out.
Yep, every paladin falls within moments of taking his oath. No- wait- just by taking his oath, he's lying, so FALL!
Fall, fall, fall, fall, fall. Antipaladins all.
Isn't anyone tired of paladin threads yet?
And, no, paladins should not dump wis- just because they can make a lot of Will saves due to their abilities.