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I'm referring to the Page of Spell Knowledge on page 314 of Ultimate Equipment. I see a couple threads on this item so far, but I don't think it's been addressed the appropriate way to use it. I'm seeing three ways it could potentially work:
1) By RAW, it appears if you simply have it, bam, spell is on your spell list.
2) You must have it during your daily spell preparation. Then after that, maybe it doesn't even matter it you have it?
3) You must wield it to use it.
Personally I like option 3 best, but I'm sure most players would hate that. Thoughts?
The flavor of this item is all out of whack for me. Paizo's RPG Superstar competition heavily discourages the creation of spell-in-a-can items, yet this could only be more a spell-in-a-can if it were an actual can. The fact that it is a page makes it even worse. "Party, you find a page with magic writing on it. Now make a check to see if it's a scroll or a page of spell knowledge."
If option 1 above is correct, then now we have the visual of a sorcerer walking around with a bushel of magical papers sticking out of his back pocket.
Since the word it uses is "bearer", I'm fairly certain it does not need to be held. The author is fairly active on the boards though, so perhaps he can shed some light.
2) You must have it during your daily spell preparation.
Does the item even work for non-spontaneous casters?
CROSSBLOODED Orc/Draconic Bloodline Sorcerers are now THE Blaster build.
Previously it was a big spell cast since you waited till 7 to get fireball.
Problem solved.
2) You must have it during your daily spell preparation.Does the item even work for non-spontaneous casters?
My bad. My spontaneous caster players tend to RP that they "focus their energy" (or similar) at the start of the day. They've done it for so long I forgot you don't have to do that. Ignore point #2.
The author is fairly active on the boards though, so perhaps he can shed some light.
To be clear, despite my negativity, I don't think the author did a bad job at the item. I think the price is probably about right. The flavor just weirds me out a bit and I do worry that spontaneous casters didn't really need this kind of power boost; they do just fine in the games I play without having added versatility.
If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known.
Emphasis mine.
With the exception of components (and no, I would not consider a Page of Spell Knowledge a component) a known spell is not limited by using a move action to pull it out, you also are able to switch spells every round, if desired, and still move.
If you were required to actually hold a Page of Spell Knowledge to cast the spell, you would not be able to do either of these things.
No, I think the key is it being part of your 'known' spell list. Otherwise, going by your option #3, it would just be considered as a permanent scroll.
If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known.Emphasis mine.
With the exception of components (and no, I would not consider a Page of Spell Knowledge a component) a known spell is not limited by using a move action to pull it out, you also are able to switch spells every round, if desired, and still move.
If you were required to actually hold a Page of Spell Knowledge to cast the spell, you would not be able to do either of these things.
No, I think the key is it being part of your 'known' spell list. Otherwise, going by your option #3, it would just be considered as a permanent scroll.
As a magic item, it generally requires you to have it on your body.
Ioun stones are about the only item that doesn't normally fulfill that requirement (and is pretty much unique in that respect with rules for it to happen).
Are you saying that having the wonderous item in a box, hidden below your floorboads beneath your desk at home allows for you to take advantage of it?
Other Wondrous Items Wondrous items not worn in one of the magic item slots are called “slotless” wondrous items. Sometimes these items take the form of trinkets, like the figurines of wondrous power. Other times they are larger items, such as the carpet of flying. Typically the possession of such an item is enough to gain its benefit, but sometimes one must manipulate and activate the item. Slotless wondrous items are the largest category and most diverse of the wondrous items.
I would also say it fits with the "use activated" and wouldn't bat an eye if the GM said I needed to be referencing the scroll as part of the casting of the spell. Yes you can cast the spell as if it were on your list, you still don't know the spell. Possession and use of the item gives you that ability.
At worst you have a page (or small "spell book" if you have multiple) that you need to have accessible (not in a haversack, floating around in some extradimensional space) when you cast your spell.
As a magic item, it generally requires you to have it on your body.Ioun stones are about the only item that doesn't normally fulfill that requirement (and is pretty much unique in that respect with rules for it to happen).
Are you saying that having the wonderous item in a box, hidden below your floorboads beneath your desk at home allows for you to take advantage of it?
Where did I ever say that?
I was saying you should not need to actually pull out the Page of Spell Knowledge and hold it to use it. But yes, definitely I think you need to have it on you.
Other Wondrous Items Wondrous items not worn in one of the magic item slots are called “slotless” wondrous items. Sometimes these items take the form of trinkets, like the figurines of wondrous power. Other times they are larger items, such as the carpet of flying. Typically the possession of such an item is enough to gain its benefit, but sometimes one must manipulate and activate the item. Slotless wondrous items are the largest category and most diverse of the wondrous items.
I would also say it fits with the "use activated" and wouldn't bat an eye if the GM said I needed to be referencing the scroll as part of the casting of the spell. Yes you can cast the spell as if it were on your list, you still don't know the spell. Possession and use of the item gives you that ability.
At worst you have a page (or small "spell book" if you have multiple) that you need to have accessible (not in a haversack, floating around in some extradimensional space) when you cast your spell.
This is where I disagree. The benefit of the magic item is it is considered as part of your 'known' spell list. When you cast a known spell, you can do so each round, switching to different spells if desired, and not burn move actions to do so.
I really do feel having the Page of Spell Knowledge on you is enough to cast the spell (or spells) as you would any other spell on your known spell list. And I don't think having it in a normal backpack, scroll case or Bag of Holding, Handy Haversack makes a difference in that, either. Now if you removed any of those containers for any reason, then yes, you would lose access to the page(s).
And finally, due to the cost of the item for each spell level, it is quite expensive. So that is another factor why I feel you just need to have it on you (not hold it) when using it.
I don't think with how much each spell level is that the item would only be a permanent scroll, which is what you are suggesting.
I'm not disagreeing about what the item does, the description states that well enough. You have access to that spell as if it were on your known list. However it is still a magic item, it needs to be used and if we're going to get technical about it RAW actually says that if there is no activation mentioned in the description, it uses command word activation
Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates.
For me, the nature of a sheet of runes is to be read. I'm not suggesting intent is a command word to activate the Page of Spell Knowledge, but without an activation action called out, that is what we have. RAW, you use a command word to activate the page, then apparently you can cast the spell detailed on it.
I don't like it, I'd much rather go with the nature of the item and read it as a use activated item.
If anyone else doesn't like the RAW, do yourself a favor and click the FAQ.
I don't have UE yet. How much would a page of fireball cost? Is it in the go limit or a 6th level char?
You only assume command word if it's not suggested in the nature of the item. The item does suggest this. I'm all for pointing out the idiocy of following the RAW, but this is not it.
A while ago I suggested 'spell tokens' which were identical to pages of spell knowledge except they cost twice as much. They were slotless but typically worn on a string around the neck or something.
My idea was largely met with negativity, saying they were broken and too good.
You only assume command word if it's not suggested in the nature of the item. The item does suggest this. I'm all for pointing out the idiocy of following the RAW, but this is not it.
The point being if someone is going to state it works some particular way I'm willing to read up on the rules to see if it does, not just blindly assume things work the way I say they do because I like my opinion. We're here talking about the Rules, not how you want them to work in your game.
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I don't have UE yet. How much would a page of fireball cost? Is it in the go limit or a 6th level char?9K like an equivalent pearl of power. A 6th level sorcerer with craft wonderous (which all sorcerers should have a good reason not to have given some of the stuff in UE), can craft one within gp limits. It would be a dc 27 spellcraft check - 5+ CL 17 +5 (not knowing Fireball). Lets see Take 10 +6 ranks +3 Class Skill + 2 Aid Another (friend from the party/familiar) + 2 library at a school of magic? (masterwork tool equivalent) +2 int bonus + 2 Crafter's Fortune spell/bardic inpiration/???
And that is the terrible part of the item. As it is a woundros item it can be crafted by people that don't know the spell.
A piece of paper that taught you how to cast a spell made by someone that don't know that spell. A sorceror or oracle without a spell can self teach himself any spell using Craft woundrous item .....To be balanced it should have the same limit of potions and scrolls, requiring the crafter to have the spell memorized while crafting the item. It would still be easy to create with collaborative crafting between a cleric/wizard with the spell and a oracle/sorcerer with the feat but it would avoid the absurdity of a scribe with Master Craftsman, an high profession (scribe) skill and no spellcraft skills being the best teacher of spells for spontaneous spellcasters.
You shouldn't need to hold the item to use it (or spend an action, for that matter). I'm pretty sure that's the way it worked in my turnover too, but since the final text changed a bit, I'd have to check that when I get home to be sure.
Considering Benchak the Nightstalker created this item (that’s correct, right Benchak?), it appears clearly the intention was not to have to hold the item when using it.
And that is the terrible part of the item. As it is a woundros item it can be crafted by people that don't know the spell.
A piece of paper that taught you how to cast a spell made by someone that don't know that spell. A sorceror or oracle without a spell can self teach himself any spell using Craft woundrous item .....To be balanced it should have the same limit of potions and scrolls, requiring the crafter to have the spell memorized while crafting the item. It would still be easy to create with collaborative crafting between a cleric/wizard with the spell and a oracle/sorcerer with the feat but it would avoid the absurdity of a scribe with Master Craftsman, an high profession (scribe) skill and no spellcraft skills being the best teacher of spells for spontaneous spellcasters.
I don't have the thread handy, but the rules folk are going to be clarifying soon what requirements can actually be bypassed by increasing the DC by 5. My reading of the core rules suggests any requirement, but the implication is that when an item says you must be a druid or other unusual requirements, that those will become hard requirements that can't be bypassed.
I know that for now, I'm not allowing crafters in my game to make one of these without knowing the spell. I made that ruling and also ruled that you don't need to have the page on your person as I suggested in the first post. And I suggested that in terms of rarity, you're far more likely to find a scroll of a spell than a page of a spell.
Ultimately, it is the price that pushed me to that conclusion. The sorcerer in my party, the only one interested in these so far, already has the human favored class bonus, which going by the price of these pages, is worth about $425,000 gp at level 20. If anything, these pages highlight how poorly balanced the racial favored class bonuses can be. HP is equal to toughness, skill points are equal to 3-5 skill feats, human favored sorcerer is equal to 10 expanded arcana feats.
A while ago I suggested 'spell tokens' which were identical to pages of spell knowledge except they cost twice as much. They were slotless but typically worn on a string around the neck or something.
My idea was largely met with negativity, saying they were broken and too good.
Funny how that works, isn't it? People are more interested in the publisher than the actual balance of the item.
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I don't have the thread handy, but the rules folk are going to be clarifying soon what requirements can actually be bypassed by increasing the DC by 5. My reading of the core rules suggests any requirement, but the implication is that when an item says you must be a druid or other unusual requirements, that those will become hard requirements that can't be bypassed.
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I had a chance to talk with SKR (he will be doing the clarification rules in the upcoming book, btw) at GenCon and he did indicate that racial requirements can be bypassed, as well.
We talked about creating the Boots of Elvenkind, and he said you can take a +5 to the DC for bypassing “creator must be an elf.”
Sean indicated the main reason the +5 DC rules were implemented, and allowing anyone to make items, is it opened up the chance for cursed items.
I did point out to him that most people would most likely wait until they were within 10 of the result needed, and then just take 10 to guarantee result. He agreed that most would do it that way, but said not all, and they wanted to give the chance out there for those who are willing roll their checks in making their items.
Funny how that works, isn't it? People are more interested in the publisher than the actual balance of the item.
Multiple studies have shown that people are more likely to have a better opinion of text that is presented with an attractive picture than text on its own or with an unattractive picture.
Multiple studies have shown that people are more likely to have a better opinion of text that is presented with an attractive picture than text on its own or with an unattractive picture.
You should enter the RPG Superstar (unless you already have). If you thought of that idea with the spell tokens earlier (similar to the Page of Spell Knowledge), I'm sure you can come up with something to compete with.
I don't have the energy to commit to anything like that. I've thought about it, but I am suffering from some chronic conditions that prevent me from performing adequately.
Otherwise, I'd totally jump at the chance to participate.
Right now, I'm working on rules for colossi, multi-part climbable monsters.
The one neat thing about this item, especially if Sorcerers can craft a spell they don't know at +5 DC, is that it actually encourages Sorcerers to go for Craft Wondrous Item instead of skipping crafting feats all together. I know I did on my Sorcerer.
I see this item as basically saying, "Hey, we know that Wizards / Clerics have about the same number of Spells per Day as you spontaneous fellows. And we also know that the ability to have as many spells as they do is wicked powerful. So at the cost of a feat (or generous DM) you can also benefit from a little Spell Research!"
I fully expect to see Craft Wondrous Item as a staple of many Sorcerer and Oracle builds now.
I actually have no problem with a sorcerer teaching himself spells by crafting this item.
Spellcraft is basically, well, a knowledge of spells. It's the skill that allows you to identify what spell another person is casting. It makes sense to me that a sorcerer who has studied the theoretical elements of a spell would be able to employ that knowledge to make himself an item that allows him to cast the spell. In a roundabout way, it's the sorcerer's version of making himself a spellbook, albeit in a much more time-consuming and expensive way.
Which I suppose also puts me squarely in the "this item needs to be held to be used" camp.
You shouldn't need to hold the item to use it (or spend an action, for that matter). I'm pretty sure that's the way it worked in my turnover too, but since the final text changed a bit, I'd have to check that when I get home to be sure.Considering Benchak the Nightstalker created this item (that’s correct, right Benchak?), it appears clearly the intention was not to have to hold the item when using it.
Not to be disrespectful, but sometimes that doesn't mean much. People tend to forget that this game is someone elses sandbox, you might write something up and they okay it, but the both of you aren't on the same "wave length" necessarily. Case in point, the synth archtype.
The way it was supposed to work, the way it came out of the editors hands and how RAW worked and how they thought it was supposed to work... the poor thing is a mess and has been removed from PFS because of it.
We may have RAI from the writer, that doesn't mean RAW follows it sadly.
Well, I don't know about the situation with the synth archtype, but I understand what you are saying. A spell/magic item/rule/etc. can change from first draft to the point of being printed.
But I think where the item may not be exact in it's description, it is descriptive enough to let us know it works like a known spell, i.e., not something you need to activate. And coupled with that the designer indicated that was the original intention, that is enough for me in that the item doesn't need to be held to use it.
RAW that is the issue, we have a magic item with a description that doesn't back up the way it should be used with how it is described. If it isn't command activated it is use activated, the description being a page of runes. How is a page used in a straightforward manner? It is read.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. a character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
If it is supposed to be a use activated item, it clearly doesn't follow RAW with the intent.
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And that is the terrible part of the item. As it is a woundros item it can be crafted by people that don't know the spell.
"Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page"
I'm pretty sure this stipulation in the creation description implies that you need to have the spell to make it, so a Wizard/Sorcerer combo makes sense, and the Wizard can just buy the scrolls to sell back higher to the overpowered Sorcerer.
If you really think it's an item that needs activation (not all do), then great, you pick it up, activate it however you do, and then it's activated: you now know that spell. You can proceed to cast spells like normal with your newly expanded spells known list.
I don't see any actual conflict between RAW and what the author's stated intent was, so I will just go with that.
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And that is the terrible part of the item. As it is a woundros item it can be crafted by people that don't know the spell.
"Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page"
I'm pretty sure this stipulation in the creation description implies that you need to have the spell to make it, so a Wizard/Sorcerer combo makes sense, and the Wizard can just buy the scrolls to sell back higher to the overpowered Sorcerer.
As already stated in the post you cited, it can be bypassed by taking a +5 to the crafting check.
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/22/13
The CL is meaningless too. The minimum Cl for the item it the level needed to cast the spell. So the DC to craft a page of spell knowledge with a first level spell is 6, 8 for a second level and so on. Add the +5 because you are lacking the spell and it become 11, 13 and so on.
An autosuccess when taking 10 for a person of the appropriate level with 1 skill point/level in the crafting skill even without an intelligence bonus or a class skill bonus.
Officially a page of spell knowledge can be created by a person with profession(scribe), the Master Craftsman feat and no skill in spellcraft/knowledge arcana .... apparently a good writing hand is more important than knowing what you are doing.
With the +3 from the skill being a class skill and the +2 from the feat a 5th level scribe with 10 wisdom will have a profession skill bonus of +10, for a total of 20 when taking 10. He would be capable to routinely scribe pages of spell knowledge with level 5 spells.
With a masterwork scribing set he would be capable to write pages for level 6 spells.
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2) You must have it during your daily spell preparation.Does the item even work for non-spontaneous casters?My bad. My spontaneous caster players tend to RP that they "focus their energy" (or similar) at the start of the day. They've done it for so long I forgot you don't have to do that. Ignore point #2.
Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before.
Sorcerers prepare spells. They are faster than wizards but still need to spend 15 minutes concentrating to get their spells back.
...if taking a Feat called "Master Craftsman" represents "not knowing what you're doing", sure.
i would say the exact opposite... that feat means you exactly know what you're doing for crafting magic items of the relevant type.
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...if taking a Feat called "Master Craftsman" represents "not knowing what you're doing", sure.
i would say the exact opposite... that feat means you exactly know what you're doing for crafting magic items of the relevant type.
With 0 spellcraft skill. Teaching a spell. Sure. [/Sarcasm]
"Master craftsman" on Scribe(profession).
You are a master at scribing stuff. Not at inventing spells.
With your interpretation a guy with Profession (scribe) would be capable to pick scribe scroll as his linked crafting feat.
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Teaching someone how a spell is cast isn't making a simple magic item at all. I would have put crafting the pages of spell knowledge under the Scribe scroll feat, not under wondrous items.
You don´t teach someone a spell. You produce an item, that is so masterful that it can transport magic. It´s similar to use magic device functions. Nothing to do with spellcraft at all.
You don´t have to study physics to repair or assemble an engine for example.
I think this item and the pricing are really cool and good. It gives the game something that was limitating before and urgently needed, because this way you can play a sorcerer, but get some spells you need in some situations you are forced in or meet unexpectedly.
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+1
just like when crafting your own headband of INT you don't need to already know the bonus skill it will grant.
i file this under the 'you can choose the problematic visualization of how mechanics work, or you can choose the non-probematic approach'.
the item IS a wondrous item*, not something using scroll rules at all, the scroll form can simply be seen as an appropriate form for an item 'granting knowledge'... nothing suggests you need to read it (although that is a reasonable way to initially activate the item, which functions continually from that point, and isn't activated each time you cast that spell), for example it works perfectly fine while you are blinded.
the pricing is good because its still attractive to spend a feat on extra arcana, or other similar options (favored class, etc).
but the net effect of all the preceding bonus spell known options, AND this one (and ring of spell knowledge) really does make sorcerors and oracles alot nicer to play IMHO, even if they may not know every single spell a wizard may have in their spell book, it is now 'enough'.
although i'm still unsure abou RAI vs. RAW of rings of spell knowledge, exactly how you teach them a spell, and if the intent is to allow 're-teaching' or replacing the previous spell with a new one...??? FAQ ???
* not to say that i don't agree that wondrous item is an awfully bloated item category, but this is a rules question forum, not a 'opinions on 3.x conventions that Paizo really should have fixed' forum.
Late to the party but for the record, none of my Pathfinder groups have had any trouble understanding the function of this item. We run it as written, without any added command words or requirement to be wielded, and see it as a perfectly fair and reasonable spontaneous caster's answer to the pearls of power, which I remind you are barred from spontaneous casters.
If you really think it's an item that needs activation (not all do), then great, you pick it up, activate it however you do, and then it's activated: you now know that spell. You can proceed to cast spells like normal with your newly expanded spells known list.
I don't see any actual conflict between RAW and what the author's stated intent was, so I will just go with that.
I'd have to agree with Quandary, and even then only as the worst-case interpretation, rather than the stated/intended application.