Before the even slightest notion of Ultimate Equipment some people wanted to be able to make their celestial armor made out of Mithral. The issue was due to the description of the armor in it stating it is made of fine links of gold or silver, which many ruled as it being made of those materials, and couldn't benefit from Mithral.
ENTER Ultimate Equipment. Checking celestial armor it makes no mention whatsoever of it being made of fine links of sliver or gold, or any relation to it. Does this mean that I can finally make my dream Mithral celestial armor?
+3 chain mail (+9 armor total-> becomes +11 when the enhancement bonus is +5)...0 Armor check penalty ...+10 max dex bonus...spell failure 5%
Total AC bonus from armor at +5 enh bonus=. +21... This is a huge improvement over the normal celestial armor which only gave a +19 with a -2 ACP.
So, can I do the Mithral version due to the ultimate equipment description?
Alteration of the special armors and weapons is still a sore point for people. I would allow it however, but I would probably charge extra since the price for the mithral gives more a of benefit than what mithral cost.
The benefit of Mithral is factored into its cost. There shouldn't be a reason to fault a PC more gold because they found a cool armor to work, to maximize their AC. Since chain mail is heavy armor, it's an extra 4,000 gp to make it Mithral. I think that's more than enough to cover the initial and only benefit.
Regardless, due to the new wording it does seem to be doable, right? Jut pass it by he GM?
.. ok you guys are missing the beauty of it. the armor now, says that is made of fine links and that it us light. by making it mithral you make it better. as I said in the OP the original version was I'd fine silver or gold, so it couldn't be it of mithral. people want it out of mithral. by making it mithral you lower the armor check penalty by 3 and increases dex bonus by +2. it gets better, not worse.
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I would disallow it because Celestial Armor already has a Mithral Template applied to it (And actually a BETTER Mithral Template)
Celestial Chainmail: Max Dex of +8, Check Penalty -2, Arcane Spell Failure 15%, Light armor
Mithral Chainmail: Max Dex of +4, Check Penalty -2, Arcane Spell Failure 20%, Light armor
I understand that it's no longer gold/silver, but you can clearly see that a Mithral Template has been applies to the armor. I think applying it twice is cheesy and breaking with the RAI.
please show where it is a template. mitgral is a special material, not a template. the armor is magically enhanced to be made that light. the material is separate futon the issue. adding the material, attacks, not overlaps, since the material is not the same as a magical enhancement.
Exactly what benefit will you be getting from making it mithral?
I think they are saying that despite the description it is mechanically good enough so that it is a better version of mithril than mithril. They are not saying it is actually mithril. In any event I would go to your GM.
it might be better thank just a passion netmask visual, but is but add good as a Kirkwall celestial armor. as for the benefit of mitral, read my other posts, I've already listed it multiple times. -3 ACP, +2 dex
also, since its not mithral, making it mithral would allow the special abilities of naturally to be present.
I'll run it by my GM.
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please show where it is a template. mitgral is a special material, not a template. the armor is magically enhanced to be made that light. the material is separate futon the issue. adding the material, attacks, not overlaps, since the material is not the same as a magical enhancement.
What do you think a special material is? It's a template that you add on top of equipment. Just because they don't explicitly call it a template doesn't mean that it's not a template. A template is any set of adjustments that you can add on top of a standard element to alter it. A monster template is a template for monsters. Special Materials are templates for weapons and armor.
Regardless of the pedantic argument, you cannot deny that Celestial Armor already has the Mithral qualities added to it, expect better. Adding Mithral to armor that has already been modified with mithral qualities would be over the top.
back in 3.5 they had something called templates for armor and weapons which were completely different than actual materials. the mithral is not a template. you can't add it into something else that is made of one thing. that is why the original version of celestial armor had this problem. because it was already made of gold or silver. if materials were templates, than you could add as many types of material to an about it weapon, without problem, and yet the rules state if you do this, only 1 material actually benefits, typically the main material.
I'm going to have to agree with Elamdri, I mean look at it this way
Regular Chain mail - Armor
Mithral Chain mail - Armor +
Celestial Chain mail - Armor ++
It's just all around better than mithral, and celestial is basically described as being made of magical gold or silver.
nerdgasm: you've just covered the issue. based on the new description for ultimate equipment, it no longer says its of gold or silver. that means it is just journal martial, created in a way to be made lighter, and magically enhanced. this is the reason behind me stating it to be mithral.
also, isn't trying to figure out rules, always just a bit pendatic?
I honestly don't think it's an issue, it's basically intended to be an upgrade to mithral armor, if you're a GM feel free to allow mithral celestial armor, but I just don't think the two bonuses should stack, and any player who brings it up at my table will most likely be accused of cheese-mongering
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also, isn't trying to figure out rules, always just a bit pendatic?
The point was that sometimes being pedantic is important, and sometimes it isn't. In this case, it doesn't matter what you call the special materials. That's not what is important here.
What is important is that the Mithral "Effect" if I can call it that is already obviously applies to the Celestial Armor, albeit that the "Effect" has been boosted somewhat for the Celestial Armor.
My point was that if you are trying to apply an "Effect" to an armor that already has that "Effect" applied to it, I think it's cheesy and against the intent of the item.
..so, wizards breaking planes, and monks flurrying with almost nigh awesomeness is not broken but a special material armor as mithral celestial is too much? wow. glad i'm at my table.
ok, understandable. however, the mithral ability comes drum the item being mithral. however, here there is nothing showing it being made it it mithral except for the supposed similarity of abilities. one being a special material, one the way the item was created.
..so, wizards breaking planes, and monks flurrying with almost nigh awesomeness is not broken but a special material armor as mithral celestial is too much? wow. glad i'm at my table.
ok, understandable. however, the mithral ability comes drum the item being mithral. however, here there is nothing showing it being made it it mithral except for the supposed similarity of abilities. one being a special material, one the way the item was created.
monks are not awesome. The rest is a matter of taste. :)
He didn't say it was broken, he said it was cheesy and totally against the intent of the item, that's a fine point, but a very important one.
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Well, lets look at it this way:
Cost of standard Chainmail Armor = 150g
Cost of making it +3 = 9,000g
Cost of adding fly 1/day on command= 5400g (Caster Level x Spell Level x 1800 then divide total by 5)
Cost of making it mithral = 4,000g (Includes Masterwork)
That leaves us with = 18,550
Now, interestingly, if we apply the cost of mithral a second time, we are left with 22,550.
Now, since mithral includes the cost of masterwork armor, and since our armor is already masterwork, if we subtract the cost of the masterwork armor from the second application of Mithral (150g), we are left with a cost of 22,400
which is exactly the cost of the Celestial Armor
So Celestial Armor basically has 2 mithral armor applications since Chainmail has a base dex of 4 and each application of mithral adds +2, giving us the 8 of Celestial armor (Except for the check penalty, which doesn't benefit from the second application of mithral for some reason)
cheesy and broken are pretty much the same, especially in this case. I understood what he meant. nonetheless, I'll bring it up with my GM later today. he's I've for custom items, as king a they make sense, and even when they don't.
and yet in the description it says it is so fine and light... that's where the bonuses are coming from, not some application if mithral. if that was the case, how do you explain the original version, which said it was it is gold or silver links?
and yet in the description it says it is so fine and light... that's where the bonuses are coming from, not some application if mithral. if that was the case, how do you explain the original version, which said it was it is gold or silver links?
A lot of it comes down to the fact that some people believe the special items were made that way, and are not to be altered so modifying them will always fall under the realm of GM Fiat. Celestial armor is really good, and while it does not give you the best AC, it does help you in other areas. I can see why an improvement might not be allowed.
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Cheesy and Broken are not the same, at least not how I use them anyway.
I define Cheesy as anything that attempts to do something against the spirit of the rules by using vague or ambiguous wording.
My go-to example of cheesiness is Magus players who attempt to use arcane mark to get a free swing in every round without burning a spell slot.
I define Broken as anything that upsets the balance of the game.
My go-to example of broken is Planar Binding, which can easily upset the balance of game play.
Something can be cheesy but not broken, something can be broken but not cheesy and something can be both. But the terms don't mean the same thing, at least as I understand/use them.
In this case it was both. And I knew this full well. Either way, I'll bring it Up to my GM and see what he says. He tends to make some crazy items for random treasure or what have you. For instance my bow does double Dmg vs undead, triple in their natural setting. And double dmg vs a few other types. Trying to see if it's possible to get celestial armor as Mithral version shouldn't be out of the realm at our table.
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I don't know that making Celestial Armor Mithral is broken. You're getting a net +2 to AC if you have the Dex to use it, which I assume you do, and reducing the check penalty to zero. If that's breaking the game, we've got bigger problems. But I certainly don't think that it was intended to be possible. But hey, if your GM lets you do it, that's totally cool.
For instance my bow does double Dmg vs undead, triple in their natural setting.
How do undead have a natural setting?
certain undead are typically found in swamps and the like, others in dungeons and caves. funny thing us, its a +5 str bow of my god, so there are more latent powers in it. One of which, I've heard is supposedly the ability to use any str if I have it. which more with ultimate equipment its just a 1k gp addition to the bow. lol. he made it to be some complex deific addition that only high level casters can do. guess that's not the case anymore. :)
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Yeah, I have to side with those that say special items are what they are. If you want a custom item then use rules that exist for designing items from the ground up.
That said I'm all for creating unique items for my players that aren't in the books. However, I would not allow my players to craft the items themselves.
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The 4k cost is disproportionately small for practically eliminating the detriments of wearing armor.
While I would personally feel that you could have your Mithral Celestial Armor, it would not be a simple 4k increase.
Let's just say it takes a lot more effort to make those links that "fine" to gain all the mechanical benefits that create "celestial armor."
Price? Probably 36,000 gp. That's the cost of Mithral x (the number of times you benefit from Mithral) squared.
But... that's just my opinion. You and your GM should hammer it out due to the existence of existing custom items in the game. If you're wielding the equivalent of ~+7-+8 custom weapon, you shouldn't have issues with a 36k armor enhancement.