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As per usual, my players shouldn't be reading this post.
Ok so 3 real world years ago in the very first encounter of our campaign I introduced a 10 year old townsfolk NPC child who, in the midst of a goblin attack discovered she had arcane talent and fought back against the invaders. The campaign has progressed well,, the party is reaching level 18 and the NPC (now an adult, a level 16 sorcerer, and all but married to one of the PCs) has occasionally joined them on adventures in a henchman capacity where her bloodline has proven to have a connection to and power over the monstrous minions of the big bad.
Now the group has been joking for years that this particular NPC will turn out to be the campaign final boss so when I started riffing on this particular idea last adventure it was pretty epic. Unbeknownst to the party the big bad kidnapped and cloned her a bunch of times, the party had a big final battle against a lesser Jabberwock and a couple of casters, one who they presumed to be this NPC but it turned out to just be a clone.
Upon rescuing the original most of the party think things are back to normal, with the potential exception of dealing with her clones cropping up in the future.
One of my PCs however doesn't see it this way. The party rogue, the usually lovable loose cannon, has decided that the NPC is too much of a liability in the face of the Big Bad's looming apocalypse and has decided to kill her and/or trap her soul such that she can't escape or be resurrected. The player wants this plan to be kept secret from the other PCs both IC and OOC.
Now the rogue is the powerhouse of the party, I have zero doubts about his statistical ability to push this plan through. However this is really going to cramp my style as I wrap up this campaign, plus upset both the PCs and their players.
These are the options I've come up with so far and I'm not entirely happy with any of them.
-Tell the player not to despite he's convinced "it's what my character would do"
-Let him proceed with the plan and give the party tools to find out what he's been up to so they can fix things, party turns on each other.
-Let him proceed and have a pivotal NPC simply vanish from the campaign.
-Give the NPC a sudden boost in power such that she can unexpectedly ward of the attack.
-Have the NPC grow wise to the threat on her life and vanish for a few sessions only to come back and make a preemptive strike against the rogue.
Any ideas as to how to best handle this for the enjoyment of all.
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Just to make sure I understood it right:
Bad guy made clones of Sorceress. PCs killed one of the clones; Sorceress herself wasn't involved.
Now Rogue wants to "take Sorceress out of the equation", but this won't actually remove any of the clones. So the clones will still be running around, but he'll have killed an ally. Did I get that right?
Let him succeed, resulting in a TPK (or a fight much much more difficult then it should have been) because the NPC wasn't around for a pivotal moment. Choices have consequences. If they live the rogue can either realize he blundered and undo his error. Or continue with things much harder.
Although if the rogue in game suddenly disappears for a few days to 'buy some supplies' in order to pull off his plan but won't tell his friends anything about what he is buying or why, that should raise some questions in game about what he is up to. As you said the party may turn on each other, or they may convince the rogue, in character, that having the NPC around is worth the risk. The only downside to party PvP is if that gets translated into real life hurt feelings and people not having fun with the game anymore (usually the case, but some gaming groups have no problem with it).
Another option would be to make the NPC currently traveling with them one of the clones. So he takes out one of the clones in his attempt - real NPC is still around to do her stuff when needed. Downside would be this would only fuel his belief she is a liability and possibly make other party members join him in his crusade to exterminate her.
BTW, "it's what my character would do" needs to be used with caution. Sometimes "it's what my character would do" ruins the game for others (other players or the GM). In those cases a player really should step back and metagame their character out of that attitude.
Depends on the alignment of the group/characters. If the rogue is a neutral alignment and the others are good, they will obviously try to stop him (should they find out his plan). If they too are neutral, they wouldn't want his actions to interfere with their own interests, and if the Sorceress is a part of that (which you said one of the PC's is married to her), they will attempt to stop him as well.
If they're all evil though, then they would either be indifferent to the matter, or join up with it depending on how sinister the idea is.
If the Rogue does succeed, I would rule that the character has a (slight) alignment change toward Neutral Evil if the killing had no accurate/true justification (as mentioned above, killing her will probably not affect the other clones, which are still out there), and the PC's may have a fight.
Personally, it wouldn't be bad to pursue the idea. I would reckon that after the deed is done and the PC's find out that they would fight. You could have either a Clone show up to throw them off thinking they killed a copy (and to spy on them for the Big Bad), or you could have the real deal show up and have the clone spying on them killed (and the Rogue wouldn't be completely viewed as a bad guy).
I would suggest that you have the PCs perform some sort of test in attempts to identify the real deal from the clones, such as having the clones not have a certain class feature/ability that the real deal can perform, and actually make it possible for them to identify the clone by having the clones not have a certain class feature/ability, while the real deal has it.
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Couldn't the Rogue accidentally nab one of the Clones instead, sent to infiltrate the party?
Bad guy made clones of Sorceress. PCs killed one of the clones; Sorceress herself wasn't involved.
Now Rogue wants to "take Sorceress out of the equation", but this won't actually remove any of the clones. So the clones will still be running around, but he'll have killed an ally. Did I get that right?
Pretty much
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Couldn't the Rogue accidentally nab one of the Clones instead, sent to infiltrate the party?
Haven't any of you actually READ any Marvel comics from the 80s and 90s? OF COURSE she's a clone! the REAL sorceress was in a stasis coocoon at the bottom of Hudson Bay or in a cryogenics lab in Hoboken the ENTIRE time!
Seriously though VRMH is right; the rogue should go ahead with the plan only to find out it was the clone. This is what turns the sorceress into the big bad at the end. She's watching on CCTV via a crystal ball in the BBEG's palace or better yet sensing through her clone and knows how the rogue's plan goes down. "You see my dear?" purrs the big bad, "I've kept my word, kept you safe here the WHOLE time, while your so-called FRIENDS conspire to slay you! You've misunderstood me this whole time sorceress, I'm not such a bad guy..."
Suddenly not only does the party mysteriously stumble on the secret assassination at the last second "Rogue...what did you DO?!!" as they find the rogue cradling the dead clone's body covered in her blood, but also the REAL sorceress has been brainwashed into thinking that her former party has just been USING her this entire time; even her lover was just lying to her the whole time.
Final showdown has the lover face to face with the real sorceress, and now he has to make a sadistic choice; either give up his own life to prove their sincerity and bring her back from the side of evil or murder the girl he saved all those years ago and end his only chance for true happiness.
This thing practically writes itself!
But then the rogue, at the last second, throws himself in front of the deathblow to spare them both. As he lies there, close to death, the sorceress' lover curls over the rogue's rapidly cooling corpse. "I'm...sorry buddy, sorry I ever doubted her or you..." he whispers feebly. "You take care of each other now, and you tell your kids about their old Uncle Rogue..." and with a final redemptive tear he fades away.
In the epilogue of the game we have the party visiting the sorceress and her PC husband, finally free to be married after all these long crazy years of darkness. The sorceress has a baby in her arms. "We're calling him Rogue, after a very dear friend..." she smiles.
AND SO OUR EPIC TALE ENDS.
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I'm wondering what will happen when the rogue attempts to dispose of the so-called "liability", only to find out that "whoops, she can actually cast 8th level spells".
Couldn't the Rogue accidentally nab one of the Clones instead, sent to infiltrate the party?Haven't any of you actually READ any Marvel comics from the 80s and 90s? OF COURSE she's a clone! the REAL sorceress was in a stasis coocoon at the bottom of Hudson Bay or in a cryogenics lab in Hoboken the ENTIRE time!
I agree with Mark, whatever he does you can always pull the "It was a clone! and THIS is the real Sorceress!" thing, Marvel LOVED that one. Just don't put your players through 3 years of guessing which is the real one and which isn't
For inspiration on what to do right and wrong. Spider-Man's Clone Saga, any thing with Jean Grey ever and the phoenix stuff. Plus many more!
Unless it seriously messes up hours of preparation work or you think the rogue is just not being involved in the game, I'd just have the rogue mess things up, it seems unlikely that the rogue can keep the disappearance of the NPC a secret from a high level party and intra-party conflict might win the day for the BBEG.
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ummm- doesn't clone read... "If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return)."
That said- I am totally against her being a clone - all this does is justify the rogue's actions.
Firstly- why does he not want the other players told? If they're good roleplayers, they can handle it, and that info won't be transferred to the characters. Sounds like he knows he's making trouble...
Secondly- These characters are 18th level. Let him proceed with the plan. The other characters can just ask the Gods what happened. The other PCs can, and should, find out what happened.
Thirdly- They should be unable to complete the climax of the game without the sorceress. Let them figure out how to get her back.
Most importantly- Your job is to make the game FUN!!!! Remind the players of this. And if it comes down to US vs THEM, do what would be the most fun for the most players (include yourself in those numbers). If the only person who would get fun from the death of the Sorceress is the rogue, don't let him. Tell him you have to make the game fun for everyone, and not just him.
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It's D&D death isn't scary past level 9.
But honestly your best off with finding a way to turn the party disention into a way to further the campaign. It sounds difficult to me but if your creative enough it can be done. If you can, then even if you don't find a way to prevent it you can still roll with what the party throws at you. After all it's the party that really controls the game.
Solutions
1) You could "Humanize" your NPC, by that I mean have her do or say something that makes the Rouge re-think is course of action. The least creative way of doing so would be to have her risk her life for a party member.
2) You could give into the rogue suspisions and make her a clone and not the real one like they think she is. I feel this option would be a cop-out but you gotta do what you gotta do.
3) Try to convince the "player" to go with something less lethel, like Zone of Truth for a start. Or if he is set on his extreme ways then Imprisonment, Temporal Stasis, or good old fashioned manacles (Anti-Magic).
4) Have you NPC be guilt ridden with this clone thing and run of to deal with it. 16 year old's run away all the time right?
5) Last but not least something I call "The Mokuba Effect". You have her get kidnaped yet again.
1) You could "Humanize" your NPC
She could be pregnant. But the rogue's player might see that as a heavy-handed roadblock, while the "betrothed" player may not really be ready for that kind of commitment.
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I think the most delightfully cliche version would be like this:
Rogue slays Sorceress. Puts her soul in a gemstone, hides gemstone where it can't easily be gotten to.
Party confronts an evil clone. Rogue realizes that he's failed somehow. Party still in the dark about the clones.
Party confronts another evil clone. Party starts to wonder what's up. Eventually Rogue starts to wonder if he's accidentally put away Good Sorceress, but there's still Evil Clones.
Now the big climax of the campaign is coming. Can Rogue free Sorceress in time so that she can help? Will he come clean to the party, or try to clean up his own mess in secret? How will Good Sorceress react when freed?
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The point of playing...is to have fun.
Don't let the party turn on each other, unless that's what they all want.
Or else, your campaign will end.
that said, try to give everyone what they want.
She could be a clone, or a simulacrum, or a doppelganger. Let him kill her, only to find out that she was a bad guy all along!
Call it, I'm saving you from your X wife before she turns on you kinda heroics.
It doesn't take magic for really good people to do really bad things.
But magic is more believable than betrayal.
Shouldn't the princess be in another castle??
These are the options I've come up with so far and I'm not entirely happy with any of them.
-Tell the player not to despite he's convinced "it's what my character would do"
-Let him proceed with the plan and give the party tools to find out what he's been up to so they can fix things, party turns on each other.
-Let him proceed and have a pivotal NPC simply vanish from the campaign.
-Give the NPC a sudden boost in power such that she can unexpectedly ward of the attack.
-Have the NPC grow wise to the threat on her life and vanish for a few sessions only to come back and make a preemptive strike against the rogue.Any ideas as to how to best handle this for the enjoyment of all.
She is a 16th level Sorc....
Contingency should do it. Its a normal tactic of casters.
From SRD:
The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being "cast" instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur.
So Contingency - Greater Teleport
"Any hostile action that will kill me, render my unable to cast, or immobilize me will instantly teleport me to my specified lair. "
Done... Rogue tries to kill her. She teleports away. Rogue has to explain what the heck he was doing... if she happens to see him before she teleports which might not happen. Either way she is alive and alerted to attempt on her life.
Synopsis of pretty much all Marvel/DC/etc comic clone storylines
Perfect example DC comics Young Justice cartoon with Red Arrow/Roy Harper...
There are a lot of options.
Since your goal is for her to survive, Teleport/Dimension Door seem to be your best bets. Planeshift would be too risky, and would probably extend your campaign longer than you want. Maybe have the Sorceress tell her would-be husband (in secret): "I'm afraid of being kidnapped again, so, I'll setup this magic protection. If anything were to happen to me, I'll be at this location (give or take whatever % applies to her)." And maybe have some sort of pyrotechnics/flare thing to help them pinpoint the exact location.That way, at least one person in the party will know where to look for her.
This is very good advice. Though more details might help up.
Unfortunately, Greater Teleport is L7, you can only Contingency L6 or less (and you need CL 18 for that). So, it'll have to be Teleport/Dimension Door.
So Contingency - Greater Teleport
"Any hostile action that will kill me, render my unable to cast, or immobilize me will instantly teleport me to my specified lair. "
Oops. Teleport then.
I mean details from OP.
Your ideas are very good.
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Couldn't the Rogue accidentally nab one of the Clones instead, sent to infiltrate the party?Haven't any of you actually READ any Marvel comics from the 80s and 90s? OF COURSE she's a clone! the REAL sorceress was in a stasis coocoon at the bottom of Hudson Bay or in a cryogenics lab in Hoboken the ENTIRE time!
Seriously though VRMH is right; the rogue should go ahead with the plan only to find out it was the clone. This is what turns the sorceress into the big bad at the end. She's watching on CCTV via a crystal ball in the BBEG's palace or better yet sensing through her clone and knows how the rogue's plan goes down. "You see my dear?" purrs the big bad, "I've kept my word, kept you safe here the WHOLE time, while your so-called FRIENDS conspire to slay you! You've misunderstood me this whole time sorceress, I'm not such a bad guy..."
Suddenly not only does the party mysteriously stumble on the secret assassination at the last second "Rogue...what did you DO?!!" as they find the rogue cradling the dead clone's body covered in her blood, but also the REAL sorceress has been brainwashed into thinking that her former party has just been USING her this entire time; even her lover was just lying to her the whole time.
Final showdown has the lover face to face with the real sorceress, and now he has to make a sadistic choice; either give up his own life to prove their sincerity and bring her back from the side of evil or murder the girl he saved all those years ago and end his only chance for true happiness.
This thing practically writes itself!
But then the rogue, at the last second, throws himself in front of the deathblow to spare them both. As he lies there, close to death, the sorceress' lover curls over the rogue's rapidly cooling corpse. "I'm...sorry buddy, sorry I ever doubted her or you..." he whispers feebly. "You take care of each other now, and you tell your kids about their old Uncle Rogue..." and with a final redemptive tear he fades away.
In the epilogue of...
There is so much cheesy win here, I cannot contain myself. This needs to happen. Mark, I award you 100,000 internets.
I mean details from OP.
Your ideas are very good.
Oh, thank you--very kind of you to say so.
Edit: A third option you could run, concurrently with Contingency (Teleport/Cloud Form/etc.) and Unconscious Agenda is (Extended) Getaway. This would allow the sorceress to teleport herself and her better half back to a location of their choosing as a swift action (so, gives her a third escape route, assuming the rogue doesn't kill her in one turn).
The advantage is that she's immediately with someone who can help her, and it would seem that triggering the spell has no verbal/somatic components.
that could work. have multiple scrolls of it and everything is good. Also a simple Alarm spell on the door to where she usually is can help a lot to. especially if no one else is supposed to be there. Like say when she is asleep.
One of my PCs however doesn't see it this way. The party rogue, the usually lovable loose cannon, has decided that the NPC is too much of a liability in the face of the Big Bad's looming apocalypse and has decided to kill her and/or trap her soul such that she can't escape or be resurrected.
How? He's a Rogue. He doesn't have spells, there aren't magical items that do this (trap the soul), she's a level 16 Sorcerer. 8th level spells are not something that you can have and be easy to kill. Not to mention that if he does kill her her soul instantly moves into a clone. I suppose you could have her die and then no-one realise she's in a clone body instead of a clone. Then at the end she reveals her presence, after the rogue gets his comeuppance though. But that still means she disappears and there's inter-party conflict. Better if he just fails outright and the rest of the party doesn't find out. Otherwise he does this basically pointless endeavour that pisses everyone off and makes your life really hard.
Just have her cast Mage's Magnificent Mansion and sit in there when she's sleeping. Alarm, Contingency, etc, and some other utility spells like others have said. Endgame Sorcerer that's what your low level slots are filled with, anyway. If he attacks her she can cast Summon Monster IX and summon 1d4+1 monsters. Add in Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, and Superior Summoning means she throws out some reasonable summons. Rod of Quicken can give even better action economy. Maze doesn't offer a save so he has to wait till his turn to make the dc 20 int check. Wall of Force to block herself off, or him.
I don't think he means clone as the spell. And a crafty player can find a way.
And a Rogue can coup de'grace her if she is sleeping. Mage's Magnificent Mansion is a good idea as well. As are any of those types of spells.
Oh, I did wonder. I assumed he was house ruling they all worked or something. Simulacrum spam isn't stopped by the target being dead. Probably even more messed up with the target being dead because of the effect on the PC who has a relationship with her.
Oh, I did wonder. I assumed he was house ruling they all worked or something. Simulacrum spam isn't stopped by the target being dead. Probably even more messed up with the target being dead because of the effect on the PC who has a relationship with her.
Understatement of the Millennium there...
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Let the rogue get away with it.
Then have the big bad send his own silmulacrum (or a dream spell) to the other PC's explaining what the rogue did and giving incontrovertible evidence. Any decent villain would love seeing his main threats fighting each other
Then let the fun ensue.
The thing here is that this is a form of PvP. One PC has a relationship with this character, there is no justification for the rogue's actions and he is knowingly doing something that he knows the other PC's would disapprove of. The player is screwing over the rest of the party. Let him face the consequences of his actions.
A rogue without allies will go down like a sack of potatoes. I don't see how he could stand up to a whole party on his own. Speak to the rogue player and make him aware that this is a form of PvP and if he is OK with that then let him go ahead.
Finally I would move his alignment one step towards evil. He is murdering someone for no good reason. That's evil to me.
Maybe he wants to become an assassin?
So... will we ever find out the fate of the damsel in distress? I'm curious now.
Me too...
Someone unrelated to the party should Reincarnate her. This reincarnated NPC could then interact with the PC's and perhaps have enough memory loss not to know exactly what happened to them.
She can re-fall-in-love with the PC she was attached to, while he quests to find why he can's rez her.
Then there's the pesky druid that Reincarnated her, and how he managed to do that!
Let him do it. Then just as he delivers the death blow reveal that she was actually one of the players transmogrified against their will the whole time!
...or she's filled with candy. Surprise...she's a pinata!
...or she disolves into a pile of goo on the floor. She was nothing more than an elemental all these years.
...or killing her releases her godseed and as she ascends to the heavens she eradicates the ro...wait, did we have a thief in the party? I don't remember.
...or the rogue's sword turns into a microphone.
...or she disolves into mist and goes back in her coffin.
I guess my point is; if you as the GM WANT her to live, she lives. If you WANT her to die then she dies.
Another great trope would be the rogue, convinced she's pure evil, has her dead to rights with the NPC wizard he's hired ready to seal her soul away and then you, as the GM, turn and look at the rogue with all the femininity and innocence you can muster, open your eyes and ask "Why rogue? Why, after all these years do I have to die? I've never harmed you, never even spoken ill of you. Please..." now you physically get down on one knee in front of the player "kill me quickly, for I know I cannot stop you. But answer me with honesty and no malice in your heart; why must I die?"
Some kind of appeal to the rogue, coupled with the wizard NPC on site looking at the heartless rogue, casting a quick detect alignment, and suddenly coming up with the fact that his act is turning HIM evil right before the NPC's eyes while the girl is innocent and Good aligned SHOULD be enough to have said NPC wizard at least put a hand on the dude's shoulder and at most whip off a disintegrate on 'em.
Y'see at the end of the day the title of the post is SAVE my PC. There's like 7 right there with dozens more above. To everyone who STILL thinks the rogue wins, FULLY...re-read the title and the OP.
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I think you have invested too much in this NPC.
I think you have invested too much in this NPC.
Sadly I agree... Don't get me wrong I have a lot of NPCs that I always work into the world. Though I don't care if they bite the dust.
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Has the rogue's player considered how the other players that are attached to that NPC are going to feel about this betrayal?
Because he's not going to have any reason to protest if/when the party reacts in character and turns on him.
It just seems at times that those most willing to sow in-party conflict are often the least prepared to deal with realistic consequences and reactions from the world and other PCs.
It just seems at times that those most willing to sow in-party conflict are often the least prepared to deal with realistic consequences and reactions from the world and other PCs.
Oh thank Shelyn I thought I was the only one who has noticed this.
Have your rogue been at any bars or parties lately? If so couldn't Evil McEvilmann have had an unfriendly bard use suggestion to seed the thoughts of killing her. You describe his as a bit of a loose cannon so having thoughts like "it would be much easier if she was just dead" are not out of the way for the rogue to have had while dodging clone fireballs.
It would require that Dr.Nogood has some way to know or at least a good chance to guess that the rogue would have that thought in the back of his head.
So why would Baddy Baderssen kill her? Well he still has a clone, a proper per the spell clone for her to wake up in. Now he has the perfect hostage and a rift in the party he despises.
So the rogue was under an evil spell and can't be blamed to far, a bit but that is no more than he deserves. Not so much to cause harm as long as the evil bard is exposed shortly after the killing.
Either that or it was plan by the sorceress' creepy uncle who wanted her to stop hanging around such a dangerous crowd (the PCs) and came up with a convoluted plan to get her to leave them (they killed her after all).
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I think you have invested too much in this NPC.Sadly I agree... Don't get me wrong I have a lot of NPCs that I always work into the world. Though I don't care if they bite the dust.
This isn't a DMPC though. This is a major NPC that has accompanied the party for a while and is important to a PC. The player in question is basically committing PVP by proxy. That's why it's an issue.
ummm- doesn't clone read... "If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return)."
Did no one notice this? So long as there's clones out there, she can't die....
Or have I totally missed something? I did read this thread very fast...