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Rogue. Thief. Scoundrel. Burglar. Con-man. This class is an archetype found throughout fantasy literature, television, and film. From Fritz Lieber’s the Grey Mouser, to Bilbo Baggins of the Hobbit, to the Count of Monte Cristo, to Neal Caffrey of White Collar, we have all seen, read about, and enjoyed such characters.
But the rogue is widely acknowledged in Pathfinder to be a fairly weak class. The reasons for that is that so many others can do what the rogue is supposed to do, leaving many players feeling useless and unable to contribute. Here is my take on how the Pathfinder rogue should have, perhaps, been. I have added some talents, rewritten others, added some things that the rogue should have had all along.
Now, I don’t think the class is overpowered, but it is a very capable class now. Able to stand up proudly as the descendant of that back-stabbing thief of 1st Edition AD&D and take her place amongst the serried ranks of Pathfinder classes. As always, friends, I hope that you will post your comments and critiques, advice and suggestions. This is merely the starting point . . . not necessarily the finish line.
And above all else, remember that it is just a game. And we are here to have fun. Enjoy!
MA
Life is an endless adventure for those who live by their wits. Ever just one step ahead of danger, rogues bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor. Never knowing what to expect, they prepare for everything, becoming masters of a wide variety of skills, training themselves to be adept manipulators, agile acrobats, shadowy stalkers, or masters of any of dozens of other professions or talents. Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, bandits and bounty hunters, and explorers and investigators all might be considered rogues, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, and luck. Although many rogues favor cities and the innumerable opportunities of civilization, some embrace living on the road, journeying far, meeting exotic people, and facing fantastic danger in pursuit of equally fantastic riches. In the end, any who desire to shape their fates and live life on their own terms might come to be called rogues.
Role: Rogues excel at moving about unseen and catching foes unaware, and tend to avoid head-to-head combat. Their varied skills and abilities allow them to be highly versatile, with great variations in expertise existing between different rogues. Most, however, excel in overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8.
BAB: Medium.
Good Saves: Reflexes.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex); Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Intelligence modifier.
CLASS FEATURES
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and swordcane. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Starting at 3rd level, a rogue may forgo up to one-half of her sneak attack damage dice (round down) to gain a competence bonus on attack rolls equal to the number of sneak attack damage dice sacrificed. To use this aspect of sneak attack, the rogue must be attacking a target eligible for sneak attack (see above).
Trapfinding: A rogue adds one-half her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to all Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magical traps.
Weapon Finesse: A rogue gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Dual Weapons Expertise (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, if a rogue is two-weapon fighting with either two different light weapons or two different weapons with which she may apply the Weapon Finesse feat, and the rogue is wielding one of these weapons in both and primary hand and off-hand (including unarmed strikes), any feat which the rogue possesses that modifies one weapon also applies to the second. For example, if a rogue is dual-wielding a short sword in one hand and a dagger in her off-hand, and she has Weapon Focus (short sword), she gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls with her dagger as well.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Rogue Talents: As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels rogue attained after 2nd level. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.
Talents marked with an asterisk add effects to a rogue’s sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made.
Acrobatic Master (Ex): A rogue that selects this talent gains a competence equal to one-half her rogue level (rounded down) on all Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim skill checks.
Agile Attack (Ex): A rogue that selects this talent replaces her Strength modifier on all damage rolls with her Dexterity modifier when she uses a light weapon or a weapon that is able to be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. This rogue talent has no effect on opponents immune to sneak attack.
Bastion of Self (Ex): A rogue that selects this talent gains a +2 bonus on her Will saves. This stacks with the bonus provided by the Iron Will feat. In addition, once per day, she may reroll a failed Will save; the rogue must abide by the results of the second roll, even if it is worse than the first. If the rogue also possesses the Improved Iron Will feat, she may reroll a failed Will save twice per day, but no more than once per round.
Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this talent can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue’s sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.
Combat Trick: A rogue with this talent gains a bonus combat feat.
Deadly Range (Ex): When selected, this talent increases the range at which a rogue may use Sneak Attack with ranged weapons by +10 feet. This talent may be selected more than once; its effects stack.
Dodge (Ex): When selected, this talent gives the rogue Dodge as a bonus feat. The dodge bonus to her AC granted by this feat increases by an additional +1 when she becomes a 6th level rogue, and every six rogue levels gained thereafter.
Fast Stealth (Ex): This talent allows a rogue to move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Ledge Walker (Ex): This talent allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.
Nimble Climber (Ex): When a rogue with this talent fails a Climb check by 5 or more, she can immediately make another Climb check at the surface’s base DC +10. If successful, she stops her fall by clinging to the surface. The rogue does not take falling damage when she stops her fall in this manner.
Powerful Strike* (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this take takes a full attack action, she can elect to take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls until the start of her next turn. If an attack during this time is a sneak attack, she treats all 1s rolled on the sneak attack damage dice as 2s.
Prone Fighting (Ex): When prone, a rogue with this talent suffers no penalty on her attack rolls or combat maneuver checks, and opponents gain no bonus on their melee attacks against her (ranged attacks still suffer a penalty). In addition, a rogue may stand up as a move-action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Quick Disable (Ex): A rogue with this talent takes half the normal amount of time to disable a trap using the Disable Device skill (minimum 1 round). In addition, a rogue can open a lock with the disable device skill as a standard action, rather than a full-round action.
Resiliency (Ex): Three times per day, but no more than once per round, a rogue who has taken hit point damage from an opponent that reduces her to 0 hit points or lower may use an immediate action to activate this talent. She immediately gains a number of temporary hit points equal to her level as a rogue. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. In addition, a rogue with this ability may feign death at the same time, forcing her opponent to make a Sense Motive check (DC 10 + the rogue level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier). Failure on this check results in the opponent believing that the rogue is dead and react accordingly as appropriate. While the rogue is feigning death, she remains fully alert and aware of what is occurring around her.
Silver Tongued Devil (Ex): A rogue who selects this rogue talent gains a competence bonus equal to one-half her rogue level (rounded down) on all Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks.
Slow Reactions* (Ex): Opponents damaged by the rogue’s sneak attack cannot make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Strong Stomach (Ex): A rogue that selects this talent gains a +2 bonus on her Fortitude saves. This stacks with the bonus provided by the Great Fortitude feat. In addition, once per day, she may reroll a failed Fortitude save; the rogue must abide by the results of the second roll, even if it is worse than the first. If the rogue also possesses the Improved Great Fortitude feat, she may reroll a failed Fortitude save twice per day, but no more than once per round.
Surprise Attack (Ex): During the surprise round, opponents are always considered flat-footed to the rogue with this talent, even if they have already acted.
Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
Weapon Training: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, even if her attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Fisticuffs (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a rogue begins to learn how to use unarmed strikes in a more effective fashion. The rogue gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and is able to inflict both lethal and non-lethal damage with her unarmed strikes at no penalty. The rogue also deals great amounts of damage with unarmed strikes than normal: a Small sized rogue deals 1d4 with her unarmed strikes, while a rogue of Medium-size deals 1d6 points of damage, and a large rogue deals 1d8. This damage does not increase as the rogue increases in level.
Hidden Weapons (Ex): At 7th level, a rogue becomes a master of hiding weapons on her body. She adds one-half her rogue level (round down) to all Sleight of Hand skill checks made to prevent others from noticing them.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Advanced Rogue Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a rogue can choose one of the following advanced rogue talents in the place of a rogue talent.
Cunning Defense (Ex): If the rogue selects this advanced rogue talent, she may add her Intelligence bonus to her AC in addition to her Dexterity. This advanced rogue talent may only be used with the rogue is wearing no armor or light armor.
In order to select this advanced rogue talent, a rogue must first have selected the dodge rogue talent (see above).
Deadly Strike* (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this advanced rogue talent uses the powerful strike rogue talent (see above), she treats all 1s and 2s rolled on the sneak attack damage dice as 3s.
In order to select this advanced rogue talent, a rogue must first have selected the powerful strike rogue talent.
Defensive Roll (Ex): With this advanced rogue talent, a rogue can roll with an opponents blow to take less damage from it than she normally would. Once per round, as an immediate action, the rogue may attempt to roll with the damage from she receives from a melee or ranged attack (but not a spell). To use this advanced rogue talent, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw with a DC equal to her opponent’s attack roll. If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she cannot use this ability. Neither evasion nor improved evasion applies to a defensive roll.
In order to select this advanced rogue talent, a rogue must first have selected the resiliency rogue talent. If the rogue fails her saving throw and is reduce to 0 or fewer hit points, or if the rogue makes her saving throw, but the attack still reduces her to 0 or fewer hit points, she may activate her resiliency talent as a free action.
Feat: A rogue may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of an advanced rogue talent.
Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, a rogue with this advanced rogue talent can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat cannot use this advanced rogue talent more than once per round.
Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.
Slippery Mind (Ex): This advanced rogue talent allows a rogue to wiggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC, with a +2 bonus on the save. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.
Two Weapon Pounce (Ex): This advanced rogue talent allows a rogue, when wielding any combination of light weapons, weapons that can be used with the feat Weapon finesse, or unarmed strikes, to move up to her base speed and attack once with her primary weapon and once with her off-hand weapon, as if she is using Two-Weapon Fighting. She cannot use this advanced rogue talent while charging or when she uses the Spring Attack feat.
In order to select this advanced rogue talent, a rogue must have first selected the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Improved Evasion (Ex): At 11th level, a rogue’s evasion improves. This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Light Steps (Ex): Starting at 13th level, a rogue learns to move while barely touching the surface underneath her. As a full-round action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this manner, any surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to move across water, lave, or even the thinnest tree branches. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touches, such as lava or caltrops, nor does she need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slipper or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the rogue ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger.
Vanish from Sight (Ex): At 14th level, a rogue can use the Stealth skill while being observed as long as the following conditions are met: (a) there must be concealment within one move action of the rogue’s current position and (b) those who are observing the rogue are distracted, even if for an instant. If both of these conditions are met, the rogue can use the Stealth skill in order to hide. Many rogues carry thunderstones, flashbombs, and smoke bombs for just such a purpose. Alternatively, the rogue may use the Bluff skill in order to feint to distract any observers.
Weakening Strike (Ex): At 16th level, a rogue may forgo up to one-half of her sneak attack damage dice (round down) to instead deal either Strength or Dexterity damage equal to the number of sneak attack damage dice sacrificed. To use this aspect of sneak attack, the rogue must be attacking a target eligible for sneak attack (see above).
Master Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects: the target can be put to sleep for 1d4 hours, paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or slain. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + one-half the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue’s master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.
Ooooh, rogue fixes.
Starting at 3rd level, a rogue may forgo up to one-half of her sneak attack damage dice (round down) to gain a competence bonus on attack rolls equal to the number of sneak attack damage dice sacrificed. To use this aspect of sneak attack, the rogue must be attacking a target eligible for sneak attack (see above).
could be made into:
Starting at 3rd level, when sneak attacking a rogue may forgo up to one-half of her sneak attack damage dice (rounded down) to gain an equal competence bonus on attack rolls.
Have you run the math on that ability? When running the math on my sneak attack replacement that gave +2 damage per 2 levels, a +5 bonus to hit made it really strong. Pretty close to the fighter, IIRC.
Weapon Finesse: I'm torn. On one hand, yea, WepFin should really be a freebie or a property of weapons. On the other, including it in a rogue revision is usually indicative of the author forcing / strongly nudging the rogue to be a Dex fighter, which really kills the true defining feature of the rogue: versatility.
Dual Weapons Expertise: Ok, really cool idea here. Suspicions confirmed about strong nudging towards Dex though. I suppose you *could* just not use your class features...still leaves a sour taste. Still, it'll help out and it is a very interesting idea.
Agile Attacks: ..........
Powerful Strike / Deadly Strike: They're actually pretty bad when it comes to talents. I think Powerful Strike adds all of .16 damage to the average. Deadly Strike doesn't do much better. I'd recommend coming up with new versions.
Fisticuffs: Cheese senses tingling when it comes to Dual Weapons Expertise and Styles. Nothing specific, but...
Light Steps: Finally! A new ability my platemail wearing, greatsword wielding rogue can use! This one goes back to the Dex-focus complaint above. (See below)
Weakening Strike: Can I split half my dice to get a bonus to-hit, and the other half to do this?
I think what you need is something like ranger combat styles, but for rogues. bonus feat at first level, bonus ability at 2nd level, another at 7, and the final at 13th-16th. So like an Order, with feats instead of skills. The rogue should be kept versatile and not push so hard to one playstyle as the default. Some nifty ideas in here though.
I did a survey amongst some "casual players", a fair number of them, and the overwhelming reason for rogue was actually sneak attack. Perhaps my sample size was small, but that changed what I thought most people thought of them.
TarkTX did a post on this too, trying to figure out what drew people to the rogue.
Archaeologist is the best -ologist 8)
Well, I do view the rogue as a dexterity class. Very much so, in fact. It is the light weapons and light armor that does it for me.
Basically, being able to sacrifice 5d6 of sneak attack damage (at level 19) for a +5 to hit doesn't put the rogue in competition with the fighter: it puts him equal to the bard, although the rogue will generate more damage. It also puts him on a level playing field with rangers vs. non-favored enemies, paladins vs. good or neutral opponents, and slightly behind a non-raging barbarian. And he is giving up half of his damage boost to gain that. You are looking at a +1 at 3rd level, +2 at 7th, +3 at 11th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 19th.
Heh. Your plate-mail wearing greatsword wielding rogue has spent three feats to do that. Quite a difference between the traditional picture of a light-fighter skill character, eh?
I had not intended for the class to sacrifice SA dice for both bonuses to hit and Weakening Strike; I will fix that.
MA
I like some of it, not others.
Fact is, things like the duel wielding and weapon finesse should be rogue talents (well, weapon finesse is a rogue talent) so that they are options rather than programmed in. Your rogue can be a finesse rogue - but he could be a thug, too.
So how about...
Incorporate these as rogue talents, then give the rogue an extra rogue talent at first level, so he can get the advantages from level 1 if he wants to. And give the rogue some option that makes strength useful, and you have it.
While I think Dual Weapon Expertise is an interesting ability, it strays too close to the Ranger's territory for my liking. I would rather see something that lets the Rogue use his Dexterity for Attack and Damage rolls, simply combining Weapon Finesse and Agile Attacks, and leave the dual weapon characters to take the feats normally. Call it Finesse Fighter or something.
The ability to trade sneak attack dice for an attack bonus is excellent and seems like a good way of keeping the Rogue competitive with other melee damage classes. I like it and applaud your thinking here.
Light Steps seems a little too mystical for your average Rogue, but would make for an interesting advanced talent (maybe with a level requirement?) for those who want more of that flavor. Further, Fisticuffs seems like it would also be a better talent, rather than a given for the class. Hell, the talents should just be the way you build your rogue style, though that might be pretty hard without a major revision to make the talents work more like the Summoner's evolution pool.
Oops. I meant to go back and fix Light Steps. THIS is what I had in mind.
Light Steps (Ex): Starting at 13th level, a rogue learns to move while barely touching the surface underneath her. As a full-round action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this manner, any solid surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to move across rope, vines, and the thinnest tree branches. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touches, such as a crust over cooling lava or caltrops, but she does not need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slipper or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the rogue ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger.
MA
As others have said, too much pidgeon-holeing (sp?) into a pure dex-based type. It's the typical Rogue, but it's not every Rogue.
But what really sticks out to me, specifically, is the TWF benefits. Rogues tend to take (in my experience anyway) TWF to game the system for as much Sneak Attack as possible, not because a precise-type character would actually use a combat style that makes it harder to hit.
Also, you're stepping pretty hard on the Fighter/Ranger's toes, specifically with the TWF stuff.
How about giving the rogue a bonus to hit with sneak attack for every attack they give up? As a rogue talent it would give the rogue better precision but not lose the damage from sneak attack.
For example, each iterative attack given up gives the rogue a +2 to hit bonus and a +1d6 bonus sneak attack damage on all other attacks, even if they would not ordinarily qualify for sneak attack.
That then gives the rogue the option to focus on single strikes for more hit & damage.
Here's a though, completely separate Rogue Talents from Advanced Rogue Talents. Something like...
Advanced Rogue Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a Rogue may select an Advanced Rogue Talent from the following list. Alternatively, the Rogue may select up to two talents from the normal Rogue Talent list.
Then include the Weapon Finesse, Agile Strikes and TWF abilities in the normal Rogue Talent features.
While I personally play almost every Rogue as a dexterous fiend, I don't like shoe-horning characters into a role. I've got a zombie apocalypse game lined up where everyone plays pre-generated characters that I made so as to avoid questionable rules and obscure feats etc. One of them is a Half-orc Barbarian/Rogue that is a master thief. He hides in an alley with a padded club, reaches out and bashes someones head in (knocking them unconscious) and then robs them. Sure, he's a brutal thief, but he is a master thief.
This would be a harder character to pull off because the the Half-Orc would be penalized for simply playing a thug, while he isn't penalized as such for using the normal Rogue rules.
I'll jump on board with cheaply and the others. The features for weapon finesse, two weapon fighting and unarmed fighting don't sit right with me. If you want to implement these things, then do something like the rangers combat styles, just not the same. Come up with some fighting styles, like two weapon, ranged/sniper, weapon and open hand, and maybe something diverse like improvised weapons or the equipment trick feat.
Looking at the rogue tricks, I think some are too much. But then again the rogue may need this. For example, I think the save bonus tricks should give a re-roll but not a +2. Maybe the reroll can get a +2. Much like traits, i don't think rogue tricks, rage powers, etc. should be the equal of feats.
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Then include the Weapon Finesse, Agile Strikes and TWF abilities in the normal Rogue Talent features.
Weapon Finesse is already available as a rogue talent; "Finesse Rogue".
While I personally play almost every Rogue as a dexterous fiend, I don't like shoe-horning characters into a role. I've got a zombie apocalypse game lined up where everyone plays pre-generated characters that I made so as to avoid questionable rules and obscure feats etc. One of them is a Half-orc Barbarian/Rogue that is a master thief. He hides in an alley with a padded club, reaches out and bashes someones head in (knocking them unconscious) and then robs them. Sure, he's a brutal thief, but he is a master thief.This would be a harder character to pull off because the the Half-Orc would be penalized for simply playing a thug, while he isn't penalized as such for using the normal Rogue rules.
Actually there's no rule that says rogues have to favor Dex over Str, just that rogues tend to prefer Dex for the AC bonus (they only get Light armor proficiency, too). Weapon Finesse and damage from SA is just a way to cut Str out of the list of needed abilities.
Being able to get iron will and improved for one talent doesn't make up for having the worst saving throws of any 3/4 BAB class and arguably the worst saves of any class. (Fort stops save or die, will stops save or puppet, reflex reduces but usually does not stop direct damage. Even with evasion it's just not as important.)
To be honest, I have to agree with this. The rogue needs something to bolster their saves at least in specific circumstances. Perhaps...
Poison Resistance: the rogue is used to handling poisons, and of having them directed at him. He gains a +1 bonus to saves against poisons at second level, increasing by another +1 for every four levels after that (+2 at 5th level, +3 at ninth level, +4 at thirteenth and +5 at 17th level). On a successful Heal check, the rogue can transmit this bonus to another person who has been poisoned for their saves.
Dissembling Purpose: at third level, the rogue knows how to pursue his own agenda while appearing to follow that of others at the same time. These devious thought processes allow him to add his charisma bonus to his Will save against charm spells and effects that would sway his thoughts and actions.
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Okay, let's try Take 2.
Life is an endless adventure for those who live by their wits. Ever just one step ahead of danger, rogues bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor. Never knowing what to expect, they prepare for everything, becoming masters of a wide variety of skills, training themselves to be adept manipulators, agile acrobats, shadowy stalkers, or masters of any of dozens of other professions or talents. Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, bandits and bounty hunters, and explorers and investigators all might be considered rogues, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, and luck. Although many rogues favor cities and the innumerable opportunities of civilization, some embrace living on the road, journeying far, meeting exotic people, and facing fantastic danger in pursuit of equally fantastic riches. In the end, any who desire to shape their fates and live life on their own terms might come to be called rogues.
Role: Rogues excel at moving about unseen and catching foes unaware, and tend to avoid head-to-head combat. Their varied skills and abilities allow them to be highly versatile, with great variations in expertise existing between different rogues. Most, however, excel in overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8.
BAB: Medium.
Good Saves: Reflexes.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex); Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Intelligence modifier.
CLASS FEATURES
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Starting at 3rd level, a rogue may forgo up to one-half of her sneak attack damage dice (round down) to gain a competence bonus on attack rolls equal to the number of sneak attack damage dice sacrificed. To use this aspect of sneak attack, the rogue must be attacking a target eligible for sneak attack (see above).
Trapfinding: A rogue adds one-half her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to all Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magical traps.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Rogue Talents: As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. At 1st level a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent at 2nd level, and for every 2 levels rogue attained thereafter. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.
Talents marked with an asterisk add effects to a rogue’s sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made.
Acrobatic Master (Ex): A rogue that selects this talent gains a competence equal to one-half her rogue level (rounded down) on all Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim skill checks.
Agile Attack (Ex): A rogue that selects this talent can apply her Dexterity modifier on all damage rolls when she uses a light weapon or a weapon that is able to be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. This rogue talent has no effect on opponents immune to sneak attack.
Bastion of Self (Ex): A rogue that selects this talent gains a +2 bonus on her Will saves. This stacks with the bonus provided by the Iron Will feat. In addition, once per day, she may reroll a failed Will save; the rogue must abide by the results of the second roll, even if it is worse than the first. If the rogue also possesses the Improved Iron Will feat, she may reroll a failed Will save twice per day, but no more than once per round.
Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this talent can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue’s sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.
Combat Trick: A rogue with this talent gains a bonus combat feat.
Deadly Range (Ex): When selected, this talent increases the range at which a rogue may use Sneak Attack with ranged weapons by +10 feet. This talent may be selected more than once; its effects stack.
Dodge (Ex): When selected, this talent gives the rogue Dodge as a bonus feat. The dodge bonus to her AC granted by this feat increases by an additional +1 when she becomes a 6th level rogue, and every six rogue levels gained thereafter.
Dual Weapons Expertise (Ex): When this talent is selected, a rogue using Two-Weapon Fighting with two different light weapons or weapons which may be used with the Weapon Finesse feat may apply the benefits of the Weapon Focus feat to both weapons, if either weapon she is wielding has been selected for that feat. Additionally, if the rogue later acquires Improved Critical, she may apply the benefits of that feat to both weapons, if either weapon she is wielding has been selected for that feat.
In order to select this rogue talent, a rogue must first have selected finesse rogue as a rogue talent as well as the feats two-weapon fighting and weapon focus (in a light weapon or finesse weapon).
Fast Stealth (Ex): This talent allows a rogue to move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Finesse Rogue: A rogue with this talent gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
Fisticuffs (Ex): This talent grants the rogue Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and increases her damage when using unarmed strikes to 1d6 (for Medium-sized characters; Small characters deal 1d4, while Large characters deal 1d8). This damage does not increase as the rogue increases in level. In addition, she may is able to inflict both lethal and non-lethal damage with her unarmed strikes without penalty.
Hidden Weapons (Ex): When selected, this rogue talent provides the rogue with a bonus on all Sleight of Hand skill checks made to conceal weapons on her person equal to one-half her rogue level (round down).
Ledge Walker (Ex): This talent allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.
Nimble Climber (Ex): When a rogue with this talent fails a Climb check by 5 or more, she can immediately make another Climb check at the surface’s base DC +10. If successful, she stops her fall by clinging to the surface. The rogue does not take falling damage when she stops her fall in this manner.
Powerful Strike* (Ex): When a rogue selects this rogue talent, she treats all 1s rolled on the sneak attack damage dice as 2s.
Prone Fighting (Ex): When prone, a rogue with this talent suffers no penalty on her attack rolls or combat maneuver checks, and opponents gain no bonus on their attack rolls against her. In addition, a rogue may stand up as a move-action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Quick Disable (Ex): A rogue with this talent takes half the normal amount of time to disable a trap using the Disable Device skill (minimum 1 round). In addition, a rogue can open a lock with the disable device skill as a standard action, rather than a full-round action.
Resiliency (Ex): Three times per day, but no more than once per round, a rogue who has taken hit point damage from an opponent that reduces her to 0 hit points or lower may use an immediate action to activate this talent. She immediately gains a number of temporary hit points equal to her level as a rogue. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. In addition, a rogue with this ability may feign death at the same time, forcing her opponent to make a Sense Motive check (DC 10 + the rogue level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier). Failure on this check results in the opponent believing that the rogue is dead and react accordingly as appropriate. While the rogue is feigning death, she remains fully alert and aware of what is occurring around her.
Silver Tongued Devil (Ex): A rogue who selects this rogue talent gains a competence bonus equal to one-half her rogue level (rounded down) on all Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks.
Slow Reactions* (Ex): Opponents damaged by the rogue’s sneak attack cannot make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Strong Constitution (Ex): A rogue that selects this talent gains a +2 bonus on her Fortitude saves. This stacks with the bonus provided by the Great Fortitude feat. In addition, once per day, she may reroll a failed Fortitude save; the rogue must abide by the results of the second roll, even if it is worse than the first. If the rogue also possesses the Improved Great Fortitude feat, she may reroll a failed Fortitude save twice per day, but no more than once per round.
Surprise Attack (Ex): During the surprise round, opponents are always considered flat-footed to the rogue with this talent, even if they have already acted.
Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
Weapon Training: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, even if her attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
The Right Skill at the Right Time (Ex): A rogue of 5th level or higher develops an uncanny knack for always being able to pull off feats with his skills, even if he has exhibited no prior ability in that area. Twice per day (but no more than once per round), she may select any one of the following skills (Acrobatics, Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, or Use Magic Device). Once selected, the rogue may attempt to use that skill, using her rogue level in place of her actual skill ranks (even if she has zero skill ranks in a chosen skill). She also applies her class skill bonus as normal to this roll. If the chosen action with her skill requires more than one round to complete, she may do so, provided that she is not interrupted in the midst of performing that skill.
At 10th level, and every five levels gained as a rogue thereafter, a rogue gains one additional daily use of this ability (to a maximum of 5 times per day at 20th level).
Cunning Rogue (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a rogue adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) on all skills for the following skills (in addition to his normal Wisdom and Charisma modifier): Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Advanced Rogue Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a rogue can choose one of the following advanced rogue talents in the place of a rogue talent.
Cunning Defense (Ex): If the rogue selects this advanced rogue talent, she may add her Intelligence bonus to her AC in addition to her Dexterity. This advanced rogue talent may only be used with the rogue is wearing no armor or light armor.
In order to select this advanced rogue talent, a rogue must first have selected the dodge rogue talent (see above).
Deadly Strike* (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this advanced rogue talent makes a sneak attack, she treats all 1s and 2s rolled on the sneak attack damage dice as 3s.
In order to select this advanced rogue talent, a rogue must first have selected the powerful strike rogue talent.
Defensive Roll (Ex): With this advanced rogue talent, a rogue can roll with an opponents blow to take less damage from it than she normally would. Once per round, as an immediate action, the rogue may attempt to roll with the damage from she receives from a melee or ranged attack (but not a spell). To use this advanced rogue talent, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw with a DC equal to her opponent’s attack roll. If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she cannot use this ability. Neither evasion nor improved evasion applies to a defensive roll.
In order to select this advanced rogue talent, a rogue must first have selected the resiliency rogue talent. If the rogue fails her saving throw and is reduce to 0 or fewer hit points, or if the rogue makes her saving throw, but the attack still reduces her to 0 or fewer hit points, she may activate her resiliency talent as a free action.
Feat: A rogue may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of an advanced rogue talent.
Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, a rogue with this advanced rogue talent can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat cannot use this advanced rogue talent more than once per round.
Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.
Slippery Mind (Ex): This advanced rogue talent allows a rogue to wiggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC, with a +2 bonus on the save. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.
Improved Evasion (Ex): At 11th level, a rogue’s evasion improves. This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Light Steps (Ex): Starting at 13th level, a rogue learns to move while barely touching the surface underneath her. As a full-round action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this manner, any solid surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to move across rope, vines, and the thinnest tree branches. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as a hard crust formed on the surface of lava or caltrops, but she does not need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the rogue ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger.
Vanish from Sight (Ex): At 14th level, a rogue can use the Stealth skill while being observed as long as the following conditions are met: (a) there must be concealment within one move action of the rogue’s current position and (b) those who are observing the rogue are distracted, even if for an instant. If both of these conditions are met, the rogue can use the Stealth skill in order to hide. Many rogues carry thunderstones, flashbombs, and smoke bombs for just such a purpose. Alternatively, the rogue may use the Bluff skill in order to feint to distract any observers.
Weakening Strike (Ex): At 16th level, a rogue may choose one attack in her normal attack routine and forgo up to one-half of her sneak attack damage dice (round down) to instead deal either Strength or Dexterity damage equal to the number of sneak attack damage dice sacrificed. To use this aspect of sneak attack, the rogue must be attacking a target eligible for sneak attack (see above). Once an opponent has suffered ability damage from this ability, that opponent cannot be affected again by 24 hours.
Master Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects: the target can be put to sleep for 1d4 hours, paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or slain. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + one-half the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue’s master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.
Looks much better, much more versatile. Check out the suggestions for save improvements in my post above as well.
Being able to get iron will and improved for one talent doesn't make up for having the worst saving throws of any 3/4 BAB class and arguably the worst saves of any class. (Fort stops save or die, will stops save or puppet, reflex reduces but usually does not stop direct damage. Even with evasion it's just not as important.)To be honest, I have to agree with this. The rogue needs something to bolster their saves at least in specific circumstances. Perhaps...
Poison Resistance: the rogue is used to handling poisons, and of having them directed at him. He gains a +1 bonus to saves against poisons at second level, increasing by another +1 for every four levels after that (+2 at 5th level, +3 at ninth level, +4 at thirteenth and +5 at 17th level). On a successful Heal check, the rogue can transmit this bonus to another person who has been poisoned for their saves.
Dissembling Purpose: at third level, the rogue knows how to pursue his own agenda while appearing to follow that of others at the same time. These devious thought processes allow him to add his charisma bonus to his Will save against charm spells and effects that would sway his thoughts and actions.
True, but the thing is . . . bastion of self and strong constitution STACK with Iron Will and Great Fortitude. You can spend two feats and two talents (by 3rd level), and suddenly your saves look like this: Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +5! That is pre-stat mods, of course. By 20th level, it will be Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +10. Before adding any ability score modifiers or resistance bonuses. And these bonuses (from the talents and feats) don't go away in an anti-magic shell!
I do like your poison resistance idea and I almost added it. I am just concerned it will take too much away from the Assassin prestige class.
MA
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I reworked the abilities as new talents and added a couple of new abilities to boost the versatility of the rogue.
I will also be adding (in my game) the following feat:
Prerequisites: BAB +2, rogue talent class feature.
Benefit: You may select one rogue talent of your choice and add it to your list of rogue talents known. You must meet any prerequisites (if any) of the rogue talent chosen. You may NOT select an advanced rogue talent.MA
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-rogue-talent
Extra Rogue TalentI reworked the abilities as new talents and added a couple of new abilities to boost the versatility of the rogue.
I will also be adding (in my game) the following feat:
Prerequisites: BAB +2, rogue talent class feature.
Benefit: You may select one rogue talent of your choice and add it to your list of rogue talents known. You must meet any prerequisites (if any) of the rogue talent chosen. You may NOT select an advanced rogue talent.MA
I was not aware it existed, so I have removed my post above. Thanks.
MA
True, but the thing is . . . bastion of self and strong constitution STACK with Iron Will and Great Fortitude. You can spend two feats and two talents (by 3rd level), and suddenly your saves look like this: Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +5! That is pre-stat mods, of course. By 20th level, it will be Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +10. Before adding any ability score modifiers or resistance bonuses. And these bonuses (from the talents and feats) don't go away in an anti-magic shell!
Nice! I confess I like your rogue remake a LOT! (I prefer my own monk remake, but hey, that's just me ;) )
I would consider making some of the save-boosts features and not rogue talents - unlike the fighting options, these are things all rogues can use, and they make the rogue in general stronger. I second Atarlost, really; the assassin isn't much cop as a PrC.
Oh, this is beautiful. Needs some revision on a couple talents (Powerful Strike and Deadly Strike are weaker than they seem) and maybe add some of the other good talents from the other books and from the ninja and clarify if I can apply Weakening Strike and the ability to increase my attack at the same time. Other than that it's awesome.
Oh, this is beautiful. Needs some revision on a couple talents (Powerful Strike and Deadly Strike are weaker than they seem) and maybe add some of the other good talents from the other books and from the ninja and clarify if I can apply Weakening Strike and the ability to increase my attack at the same time. Other than that it's awesome.
You should consider also plundering the Master Spy PrC and stripping it's class abilities to turn into rogue talents, like the resistance to alignment detection.
Thanks. I knew Powerful Strike and Deadly Strike were weak as writeen, which is why I removed the -2 on attack rolls and full-attack restrictions. Are they still weak? Because now they apply to every sneak attack made.
I did rob the ninja of their (non-ki) talents for this. LOL But, I didn't even consider the Master Spy PrC; I will have to take a look.
With the change I made to weakening strike (applies to 1 attack, ability damage can only be applied to any one creature every 24 hours), I see no reason why it wouldn't stack with the ability to increase your attack rolls. You would give up ALL sneak attack damage (at level 20) to add +5 on the attack roll and do your normal weapon damage +5 points of either Strength or Dexterity damage. And since you can't stack the damage to put someone 15 or 20 points down, why not make it easier to hit?
MA
Oh, this is beautiful. Needs some revision on a couple talents (Powerful Strike and Deadly Strike are weaker than they seem) and maybe add some of the other good talents from the other books and from the ninja and clarify if I can apply Weakening Strike and the ability to increase my attack at the same time. Other than that it's awesome.You should consider also plundering the Master Spy PrC and stripping it's class abilities to turn into rogue talents, like the resistance to alignment detection.Thanks. I knew Powerful Strike and Deadly Strike were weak as writeen, which is why I removed the -2 on attack rolls and full-attack restrictions. Are they still weak? Because now they apply to every sneak attack made.
I did rob the ninja of their (non-ki) talents for this. LOL But, I didn't even consider the Master Spy PrC; I will have to take a look.
With the change I made to weakening strike (applies to 1 attack, ability damage can only be applied to any one creature every 24 hours), I see no reason why it wouldn't stack with the ability to increase your attack rolls. You would give up ALL sneak attack damage (at level 20) to add +5 on the attack roll and do your normal weapon damage +5 points of either Strength or Dexterity damage. And since you can't stack the damage to put someone 15 or 20 points down, why not make it easier to hit?
MA
Ha, didn't notice you had removed the restrictions. It's much better that way. And those two stacking is pretty cool, thanks for making that clear.
Like Cheapy, I am a little uneasy about giving Weapon Finesse free. It weakens the "enforcer" variant, but I suppose that it's not a big deal. Arguably, Weapon Finesse should be available free to everyone on every finessable weapon anyway.
I agree in principle, but I think MA adjusted it so instead of getting WF for free, you get a rogue talent at level 1. That way you can take it as Finesse Rogue, or not as you prefer.
I'm not sure why no-one else is posting.
I have more to say, but if no-one is interested, I won't bother.
You spammed us out.
Meh, not really. I just hadn't really had anything to say yet.
Something that concerns me is the Cunning Defense Advanced Rogue Talent. It mandates you have the Dodge talent as well, but you get to add your Intelligence to your AC.
Now, I'm only using the NPC Heroic stats for a Skill character. She has Str 12 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 8 and Cha 10. She gets two stat boosts and I'm going to go ahead and toss them into Con and Int for Str 12 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 8 and Cha 10. This Rogue is likely going to get Chainshirt and +2 is pretty reasonable (possibly +3 even).
So her AC is 10 + 6 (Chainshirt) + 2 (Dex) + 1 (Dodge) + 3 (Int) = 23. This isn't including any Rings or Amulets or Shields that could add to AC.
A Heroic Melee character has Str 15 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 and with two stat bumps into Str and Dex for a total of Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8. Assuming just +2 plate mail, no shield or anything and the Dodge feat.
His AC is 10 + 11 + 1 (Dex) + 1 (Dodge) = AC 23. So the Cunning Defense allows a Rogue to roughly equal the AC of a Plate Mail melee character. This isn't taking into account Shiels or other bonuses from items, or feats like Shield Focus (other than Dodge).
Is it just me or is this a bit much? Should the Rogue be able to roughly match a Melee characters AC? Sure, a Sword and Board character will leave the Rogue in the dust, but it just strikes me as odd that, within reason, the Rogue is only going to be beat by characters that carry shields.
Also consider this, the Rogue will probably be able to match the Monk for AC as well, and I'm guessing touch AC too as the Intelligence bonus is untyped, so it applies to all AC types, even Flat-Footed.
Don't get me wrong, I like Cunning Defense, but I think it might be better to have it be a normal Rogue Talent that adds Intelligence to AC on a 1 point per 2 Rogue levels? Make it similar to the Duelist ability.
Here's a thought, how does the Cunning Defense interact with the Duelist's Canny Defense? Does a 10 Rogue/10 Duelist get to add her Intelligence to AC from her Rogue Talents and add it again from her Duelist ability? Or does one make the other irrelevant? If Cunning Defense scaled with Rogue levels like Canny Defense does, maybe they could stack to determine the total bonus?
For instance, a 10 Rogue/1 Duelist (using the 1 for 2 Cunning Defense above) the Rogue could add up to +6 to her AC from her Intelligence score (5 from Rogue levels, 1 from Duelist).
I like a lot of this.
I will add a dissenting opinion to an earlier sentiment by other posters -- I actually like rogues having Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level. (However, I agree that TWF was unnecessary and am glad it was taken out.)
While yes, you may wish to have a thuggish rogue, the rogue as written makes it very hard for people to build Dex-based builds without a lot of feat taxes. And more to the point, I think that is a MUCH BIGGER problem than having a class ability you end up not using much because you choose to make an exception-to-the-typical rogue build.
The problem with Finesse Rogue as a talent is that it means your typical Dex based rogue either spends his 1st level feat on Weapon Finesse -- meaning he must put off anything else till later -- or has to spend all of 1st level not hitting anything until he can get the talent at 2nd level. That's especially frustrating if you're playing in a slow leveling campaign.
Also, all this means is you can't please everyone. :)
On other stuff... I agree with the above posts that Acrobatic Master is too powerful. Acrobatics is a really powerful skill alone--possibly the most powerful skill in the game--just a boost to that is powerful enough without boosting the other skills.
I'd also like to see as rogue talents or class feature stuff that boosts Disarm, Steal, and Dirty Trick maneuvers (I realize the latter two are not core). Whether you just get Agile Maneuvers as a bonus feat or class bonuses to those abilities--maybe even something like your BAB counting as full for those maneuvers--I don't know, but that's another area where I feel like the game mechanics conflict with what the rogue should be good at.
I'm not sure why no-one else is posting.
I have more to say, but if no-one is interested, I won't bother.
Well, I started to reply a couple of times, but then you posted something new. So I was actually waiting for you to finish your thought. Plus, yesterday was a holiday here in the states and I spent most of the day standing over a bar-b-que grill char-broiling hamburgers, hotdogs, sausages, steaks, pork, and chicken. And spending time with my family.
I will try to get back to you today, but I have some errands to run and otherwise a busy day ahead.
MA
While yes, you may wish to have a thuggish rogue, the rogue as written makes it very hard for people to build Dex-based builds without a lot of feat taxes. And more to the point, I think that is a MUCH BIGGER problem than having a class ability you end up not using much because you choose to make an exception-to-the-typical rogue build.
Absolutely with you on this, the monk and the rogue both suffer from the same problem.
The problem with Finesse Rogue as a talent is that it means your typical Dex based rogue either spends his 1st level feat on Weapon Finesse -- meaning he must put off anything else till later -- or has to spend all of 1st level not hitting anything until he can get the talent at 2nd level. That's especially frustrating if you're playing in a slow leveling campaign.
That's why I suggested putting in a rogue talent at first level, just as a fighter gets a bonus feat at first level. It means you can take the feat from the talent rather than pay it as a tax.
I like that underhanded maneuver...