In the original Arthurian Lore (dates back to shortly after Rome invaded the British Isles) She was sacrificed when she was on her death bed so her husband could become a Lich (term wasn't used originally as this term came around after the legend was scribed) to continue her arcane research. The Black Knight and Green Knight that guard the path to her Lake chose to become the "Trials of Honor" to protect her from those who would abuse her power. They knew via visions that she would ascend to a state of existence beyond normal humans.
The original terms for them were Lichyrn, the knights were called Death Watchers.
The multiple Black Knights were originally called Dark Knights. This was changed in modernized versions.
Do you have a reference for this? Although I know there are parallels to Arthurian characters in earlier celtic myth, most of the earliest references to King Arthur don't date back to past the 8th century.
It is from a Book I have that details 3 early versions of Arthurian Legends. Namely the Roman Version, the Celtic Version, and the early Anglo-Saxon Version. What I listed above actually is a constant in those 3 versions.
It is from a Book I have that details 3 early versions of Arthurian Legends. Namely the Roman Version, the Celtic Version, and the early Anglo-Saxon Version. What I listed above actually is a constant in those 3 versions.What book?
I can't find the Cover... it is an old book... (Print date is late 1800s)
Good old gentle repose.
Taly, ah, but can you be something other than evil, after you become a lich? Centuries wear on, the novelty of evil fades, so a dm ran a neutral lich we encountered.
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Just remember that Scottie wrote those manuals conservatively because he knew other engineers would push the limits.
Also, my take on neutral or good undead is that most undead are inherently evil, but extreme age can give them the time and weight of mind to break inherent tendencies and choose a different path... That or direct or indirect divine intervention.
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If a mummy merely guards and kills trespassers into its ancestral pyramid, how is it evil? Just a lawful guardian.
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Evil in RPGs is not based on intent. It's a real, actual "thing". Places can be evil. Objects can be evil. Undead things are just evil - fact of (imaginary, oversimplified) life.
I get the impression at times that some players or dms want to de evilfiy the act of becoming undead, I really don't get this viewpoint. I think exceptions at times make for good stories , but they should be exceptions and rare.
I imagine the focus required to attain lichdom will typically eclipse any and all other goals neglecting anything else you care for, even good intentions will start to sound hollow after a while. Obsession and ambition is what drives liches into evil, a willingness to make greater and greater sacrifices that strip away your 'humanity' even before you become a lich.
Even good reasons to seek immortality will become blurred and twisted on the journey into undeath, though a lich with 'good intentions' does not automatically make it less evil, it might still pursue these goals in unlife though likely in an obsessive fashion and tainted with immoral, brutal efficiency. A lich dedicated to protect the kingdom / royal family might serve as a lorekeeper, protector, puppetmaster and ruthless assassin as needed.
Making it easy to retain your mortal perspectives or having lichdom be attained without much sacrifice throughly diminishes the lich in my opinion, for that reason (and more) it would most likely stay outside the reach of my players.
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There is no good answer for 3.5 Loyalist's question about a mummy. So, by association, there is no good reason to assume every undead should have to be evil.
All undead are Evil because that's what JJ wanted for Golarion, -not- because it makes sense on a theological level.
Good old gentle repose.
Taly, ah, but can you be something other than evil, after you become a lich? Centuries wear on, the novelty of evil fades, so a dm ran a neutral lich we encountered.
I disagree, evil does not take effort or interest in doing evil. It just requires them to be selfish and uncaring, as such the novelty of morality is infinitely more likely to fade. Liches that stop caring at all will much more likely go dormant.
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There is no good answer for 3.5 Loyalist's question about a mummy. So, by association, there is no good reason to assume every undead should have to be evil.
All undead are Evil because that's what JJ wanted for Golarion, -not- because it makes sense on a theological level.
Of course JJ decided the mummy had to be evil that doesn't mean there is no good reason for it. The fact that a mummy is evil determines it is immoral and ruthless in following it's duty, it will not be bothered or slowed by plights of mercy or particuary care 'why' you are in his tomb, you are there so you have to die.
Neutrality in an intelligent creature would indicate that it has compassion and cares about morality to some extent wether it acts upon it or not, I imagine that is not the flavor JJ was going for in undead, a mummy is better served as a single minded ruthless guardian in my opinion.
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The elves of the forgotten realms setting had liches who weren't evil. they were essentially powerful mages who wished to continue serving the elven kingdoms in death. They had a different name for them but really they were just liches.
How ConvenientI can't find the Cover... it is an old book... (Print date is late 1800s)It is from a Book I have that details 3 early versions of Arthurian Legends. Namely the Roman Version, the Celtic Version, and the early Anglo-Saxon Version. What I listed above actually is a constant in those 3 versions.What book?
Not really... Cover had the best depiction of King Arthur on the inside.
The front had the best Knotwork Letter I have ever seen... plus without the cover this book went from 1500 USD to around 0.01 USD...
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Lich is an enchanted item, not a template as such.
An item that gives the undead type, adds +2 to the mental scores and makes your touch paralyze. Oh yeah and that un-killability, which really isnt much of a power from a player standpoint.
Ya know, noone sends the player away from the table and told to never ever come back when a character dies ;)
More like just allows the game to keep rolling without a need to stop and roll up a new character. Undead immunities are powerful tho, and the paralyze is semi-useful, more utility than anything else. Ability score bonuses are nice, but actually barely worth mentioning.
Or dunno, the steps to become a lich might have changed now from 3.5..
And yes, you can be just as beaurtiful as you could ever want to!
Hell, even do a permanent version of that recorporeal animation spell, and you can switch bodies whenever you feel like it.
Stonegiant maybe, that natural armor looks nice :D
..or a large dragon..
Perhaps even wear multiple bodies, and then switching them back and forth as needed... buahahaha!
I can't find the Cover... it is an old book... (Print date is late 1800s)
Not really... Cover had the best depiction of King Arthur on the inside.
The front had the best Knotwork Letter I have ever seen... plus without the cover this book went from 1500 USD to around 0.01 USD...
Given that again, the oldest even vague references to King Arthur are 8th century at best would suggest that at best this is a fictional retelling of Arthurian legend, since there does not appear to have been any sort of record of a Roman version of the legend
On the topic of liches, why do people assume that being undead is the only way to continue one's pursuit of knowledge? In game we have seen an alchemical solution that extends life without needing to become undead. Given the power that a high level wizard has, their are (probably) multiple routes to virtual immortality without having to become undead. Lichdom might simply be the quick and easy route. Although I could see a research focused lich mellowing out into neutral with time, he still started down the path by committing some sort of horrible atrocity.
spelljammer had atleast 2 nonevil liches.
One was driven by revenge, and wanted nothing else but kill every last single damn neogi anywhere and anytime.
The other didnt even know it was dead. Its familliar began treating it strangely at some point, and despite the air going poisonois the lich didnt notice a thing, nor did not eating or sleeping for months alert him to something being off... and was just happy researching the deeper secrets of deep space. If informed of his death, he would only shrug and continue anyway with the research.
My friend's character is not obsessed with power. What he wants is to attain the knowledge and secrets of life, death, and souls.You do understand that that's the traditional starting point for just about every mad wizard or scientist in literature? Lots of them start out with goals that are perfectly benign on the surface. It's what they do to achieve them AT ANY COST which ultimately pushes them into black hat territory.
That's the real question. In obtaining that knowledge and secrets at what point do you come to a line that you will not cross? For most people, that's a line that keeps them far away from lichdom, and they pass on when their time comes. The urge however to continue crossing those lines, to deny your own mortality does tend to lead you down roads of increasingly forbidden lore and vile practises. Until one morning you're making out your daily schedule and taking no notice of the dozen souls you're going to sacrifice that day "for the greater good."
You do understand I am the DM of that game and that the advancement of science and civilization, especially by men and women who wish to do good for mankind, are not evil? Einstein made leaps in the study of physics, yet it was not he who directly invented the nuclear bomb. His theory played a part in it, but he didn't. Even if my explanation now fell on deaf ears, my point still stands. His character knows his limits, and I decide as DM if he goes evil or not, but so far we have both seen that it is very unlikely, even if he did become a lich. He keeps to his goal, as he has had to endure quite a lot just to stick to it.
Also, I can't help but wonder why you are attempting to taunt me in every thread I've seen you in so far.
Given that again, the oldest even vague references to King Arthur are 8th century at best would suggest that at best this is a fictional retelling of Arthurian legend, since there does not appear to have been any sort of record of a Roman version of the legend
I can't find the Cover... it is an old book... (Print date is late 1800s)
Not really... Cover had the best depiction of King Arthur on the inside.
The front had the best Knotwork Letter I have ever seen... plus without the cover this book went from 1500 USD to around 0.01 USD...
Well if Arthur did exist then he might be able to be placed in the 5th Century AD which was during the fall of the Roman empire. If this is the case then it is entirely possible that his legend extends from that time.
I think the earliest references that you cite are from a writer from the early 800s who compiled information about Arthur which would then place Arthur at an earlier point. Of course we have no idea how much the author changed for his own purposes.
About the player becoming a lich I would say "Let him!" don't let things like the supposed alignment of a lich get in the way of the game. You may want to have him sacrifice a level when he undergoes the change though since he is gaining a lot of power in the process.
Just had a thought, why not create a prestige class where the player takes on the powers and form of a lich, kinda like the dragon disciple class?
It actually comes from 1850 translations of Roman, Celtic, and Anglo-Saxon stories. The stories actually where written around 400(Roman), 1000(Celtic), and 1050(Anglo-Saxon).
I say let him become a lich and face the consequences of said transformation.
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Is there a specific reason he wants to be a lich other then the immortality thing? I can not speak for others, but the whole living as long as possible is not what I find evil about the lich. I would think there would be...My friend's character is not obsessed with power. What he wants is to attain the knowledge and secrets of life, death, and souls.You do understand that that's the traditional starting point for just about every mad wizard or scientist in literature? Lots of them start out with goals that are perfectly benign on the surface. It's what they do to achieve them AT ANY COST which ultimately pushes them into black hat territory.
That's the real question. In obtaining that knowledge and secrets at what point do you come to a line that you will not cross? For most people, that's a line that keeps them far away from lichdom, and they pass on when their time comes. The urge however to continue crossing those lines, to deny your own mortality does tend to lead you down roads of increasingly forbidden lore and vile practises. Until one morning you're making out your daily schedule and taking no notice of the dozen souls you're going to sacrifice that day "for the greater good."
You do understand I am the DM of that game and that the advancement of science and civilization, especially by men and women who wish to do good for mankind, are not evil? Einstein made leaps in the study of physics, yet it was not he who directly invented the nuclear bomb. His theory played a part in it, but he didn't. Even if my explanation now fell on deaf ears, my point still stands. His character knows his limits, and I decide as DM if he goes evil or not, but so far we have both seen that it is very unlikely, even if he did become a lich. He keeps to his goal, as he has had to endure quite a lot just to stick to it.
Also, I can't help but wonder why you are attempting to taunt me in every thread I've seen you in so far.
Negative energy is not evil.
Also, baelnorns and archliches.
Negative energy is not evil.
Also, baelnorns and archliches.
Also, pie.
Negative energy is not evil.
Negative energy doesn't have the capacity to be good or evil. It is, however, a tool of evil. It is anathema to all living things and has a corrupting influence. Channeling negative energy is not automatically evil, but I typically rule that any player that makes a habit of using the energies too frequently risks an erosion of alignment (I'm talking serious spamming of Harm spells, here, not occasional Inflict Light Wound use).
Also, baelnorns and archliches.
These are absurdly rare (if the DM chooses for them to even exist at all). Also, I really don't count anything that happens in Forgotten Realms. It is a silly place, what with a good 30% of the inhabitants of Faerun being epic-level spellcasters. ;-) My guess is that baelorns and/or archliches are actually creatures of the deathless type, but sages simply assumed that they were "good liches". That's my personal retcon.
IMO, Liches = Evil. Period. If you weren't evil when you started to become one, you will soon be so as a result of the condition.
My personal retcon is that the deathless subtype does not exist...
My personal retcon is that the deathless subtype does not exist...
Fair enough. ;-)
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I think the Evil alignment comes from the Negative Energy.
But that makes no sense, since negative energy is not and never has been even a little bit evil.
It's a type of energy that is completely natural to the fantasy world of D&D/Pathfinder. Yes, it's an extra-dimensional energy source, but so is *positive energy,* which is what all living creatures are animated by, making a creature animated by negative energy no more or less 'unnatural' to the mortal world than a living creature, which is also sustained and maintained and nurtured by amoral and uncaring energy from another dimension entirely.
*If* it were the case that negative energy were evil and corruptive and unnatural, somehow, which, as far as I know, has *never* been the case, in any verison of D&D, then yeah, it would follow that a creature animated and empowered by negative energy would become all evil and corruptive and unnatural as well.
But t'aint so.
Now, granted, Golarion has it's own quirks.
The goddess of death, Pharasma, whom one must flip the bird and defy to become undead, is neither a good goddess, nor a lawful one, so flipping her that bird and becoming undead may be disrespectful or even, heaven forfend, cheeky but is is neither chaotic nor evil, as 'Pharasma's Law' is really more of a guideline, and not really a 'law' at all, just the way she likes to keep her house arranged.
On the other hand, the goddess of *un*death, Urgathoa, is a wicked selfish old beast, who cares about nothing other than her own self-satisfaction, and is perfectly willing to perturb the workings of the universe and potentially wreck the lives of countless others to fulfill her own jaded whims.
So, whether or not negative energy is evil, whether or not mooning the death-goddess is wicked, the goddess who is the primary patron of the state of undeath is a naughty person.
Still, that doesn't gaurantee that all undead *must* be evil, any more than the fact that the only gods with the Sun as an area of concern (Sarenrae or Iomedae) are good means that all light and sun spells and effects are automatically [good] or the fact that Zon-Kuthon, an evil god, is the primary patrons of the Darkness domain, means that all [darkness] spells are automatically going to also be [evil]. Urgathoa being evil and the patron of undead doesn't *necessarily* mean that all undead must be evil, anymore than Lamashtu being god of Madness means that anybody with a mental condition has to be chaotic evil, or Erastil being god of Community meaning that all communities have to be lawful good.
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As for the original question, gentle repose. A little scented oil and remembering to use prestidigitation to keep the clothes clean, and you're good to go.
The reason Liches are ugly is because they are blasphemous monstrosities of unlife sustained by a steady diet of negative energy and bitter resentment at mortality.
That memo went out a long time ago, but clearly not everyone got it.
@Set: what I meant is the Negative Energy influences their actions.
Personally I feel that the Lich might after so long overcome this negative influence.
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A lich is a CR 2 adjustment, which means at early levels, it counts as a +2 level adjustment, and after a few levels, it becomes a +1 level adjustment.
However, since it's pretty impossible to become a lich at low levels, the lich will simply always be one level behind.
Example: In a party of 10th level characters, a lich would be a 9th level character with one level of "lich" and will cap out 19th level.
CR has little relevance when you are speaking of characters class levels. An ability that has little effect on a monster can have a profound effect on a character and an ability that is important for a monster can be of little interest to a character.
As an example the lich negative energy touch attack mean that it has unlimited healing after each battle. Rarely a monster survive a battle (well, mine try and a good percentage of them flee successfully but plenty of GM have them always fighting to their last hp) so it is of limited use for it, for a PC it is very valuable.
Another example are the skills it gain as a lich: "Skills: Liches have a +8 racial bonus on Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth checks. A lich always treats Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth as class skills. Otherwise, skills are the same as the base creature."
+8 racial bonus to 3 good skills and several others that become class skills. It depend on its original class but a typical wizard would get a potential +3 to 6 skills.
Monsters as PCsThere HAS to be a level adjustment, templates are too powerful and it's unfair to other players who don't have templates. The rules do say that as you gain levels, you get bonus levels and catch up to your party, although you will always be one level behind.
Note that when it speak of those adjustments it don't speak of templates but of monster with racial HD. Templates evaluation is way more complicated.
Probably using the Advanced Race Guide will give a better idea of teh relative power levels.|
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So, I have a player who eventually wants to become a Lich and so was reading up on it and realized that other than the picture nothing really says they have to be ugly (unless I missed something). So, why is it the lich is so ugly... are there spells than can preserve his/her form as it was at death? I seem to recall reading about a lich doing just that in some book but it was so long ago I can't recall what spell was used ....
Anyone ever have a player become a lich is it vastly overpowering?
Thank you
It was a Red wizard in forgotten Realm, I think Zass Tam (SP?) or something similar. He use gentle repose but sometime forget and he is a bit decayed.
As long as the character cast gentle repose regularly (possibly overlapping the spells so that he don't misses even a minute) he can stave off decaying, the problem arise the first time is original body is destroyed. The phylactery start rebuilding the body in 1d10 days, but it will not cast gentle repose, so the body will decay during that period. Add dispel magic, not healing naturally but through infusion of negative energy and so on and his aspect will worsen over time. How fast is dependant on the care the character take in preserving it.
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The reason Liches are ugly is because they are blasphemous monstrosities of unlife sustained by a steady diet of negative energy and bitter resentment at mortality.That memo went out a long time ago, but clearly not everyone got it.
Blasphemous means different things in a world like Golarion.
Becoming undead would indeed be sacreligious to a follower of Pharasma, but to a follower of Urgathoa its a blessed event, a holy and sacred transcendence of mortal weakness and impermanance and imperfection, a purification and purging and rarification of the self, an ennoblement (quite literally, in the case of someone joining the ranks of the Gebbite aristocracy).
'Bitter resentment at mortality?' Ha, try 'I got myself promoted out of that dead end job at my first opportunity!' To the lich, he is the butterfly, free to fly, cut loose from the shackles of hunger and disease and pain and aging, while the human is the caterpillar, condemned to eat and toil, hoping to survive that fragile and demanding stage of existence.
As for Golarion, the vast majority of divine powers with clerics in Golarion are evil or neutral, with a smaller percentage being good (thanks to the overwhelming preponderance of non-good Eldest, Elemental Lords, Arch-Devils, Daemon Horsemen, Great Old Ones, and, especially, Demon Lords). So, in Golarion, it is far more likely to be 'blasphemous' or 'sacrilegious' to *NOT* create undead, than it is to create undead. You're offending *way* more gods by destroying undead, than by creating them.
Pharasma is not the only god on Golarion. She doesn't get exclusive right to decide what's 'blasphemy' or 'sacrilege.'
Nor do the evil gods, for that matter. Asmodeus might consider it 'sacrilege' to break a contract and free a slave, but that doesn't mean that Cayden Cailean or Desna are going to agree... Rovagug and Shelyn are going to have 100% different ideas on whether it's a sacred or profane act to slash up and deface a beautiful painting.
Gods, in this setting, can be (and, more often than not, are!) evil.
Terms like sacred, profane, holy, unholy, blasphemous and sacrilegious aren't always going to conform to Judeo-Christian assumptions.
I think the Evil alignment comes from the Negative Energy.But that makes no sense, since negative energy is not and never has been even a little bit evil.
Regularly using it is generally evil, isn't it?
I can't think of a situation in any incarnation of D&D or Pathfinder where the good guys have used negative energy habitually. Nor even neutral people, for that matter. I don't mean it's written down somewhere as a LAW, but if only bad guys ever use it, isn't that an argument for its evilness of sorts?
FWIW, I always assumed that part of the reason liches must be evil is due to the depraved but unspecified rituals they've had to perform. My assumption was that it requires ruthlessly exploiting and/or killing many innocents over a period of time (or similar evil act) in order to perfect the rituals required. By the time you've got through that, any moral high ground has been well and truly ceded.
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@Set: what I meant is the Negative Energy influences their actions.
Would it 'though? Does negative energy have moods or goals or a burning dislike of living things? Is it sentient? Is it capable of malice, or aware enough to tell the difference between a living person and a tree and a rock? Does it have preferences for who it 'hates more,' like humans more than cattle more than vermin more than bacteria more than mushrooms more than Cthulhu (who is also animated by positive energy!)? Not really (indeed, if the presence of Ghoul Fever or the contagion spell are any indication, negative energy seems to work *just fine* with living bacteria, which doesn't fit all with an antithetical life-hating energy. If negative energy *hated* life, and positive energy *loved* life, then contagion, which *creates life* would be a positive energy spell, and remove disease *which kills living organisms* would be a negative energy spell!).
No more than positive energy influences people to be good, and since the demons, devils, daemons, etc. are all powered by positive energy *and yet also made of pure evil,* apparently there's no 'alignment tendency' towards goodness built into being powered by positive energy. And, if that's the case, why would negative energy be any different, if there's never been any mechanical ruling that negative energy is any more or less 'evil' than positive energy is 'good?'
Certainly, that would make for a freaky setting, in which all living things, empowered by positive energy, trend towards good (including orcs, aboleth and Cthulhu) while all dead things, powered by negative energy, trend towards evil (including your ancestors, that paladin that just died five seconds ago and every mortal hero or saint you grew up idolizing). But that's not the setting we've got. A dead paladin's spirit doesn't automatically turn evil, just because he's no longer powered by AC and his crank now turns on DC. Queen Abrogail Thrune isn't constantly fighting off those terrible urges to be nice to people that come with a body seething with kindly benevolent loving positive energy.
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I think the Evil alignment comes from the Negative Energy.But that makes no sense, since negative energy is not and never has been even a little bit evil.Regularly using it is generally evil, isn't it?
I can't think of a situation in any incarnation of D&D or Pathfinder where the good guys have used negative energy habitually. Nor even neutral people, for that matter. I don't mean it's written down somewhere as a LAW, but if only bad guys ever use it, isn't that an argument for its evilness of sorts?
Could be. We don't see good people regularly using poison, either, or using mind control magic to force people to do things outside their normal ethical / moral boundaries (or see the later psychological or emotional or legal consequences on those affected, as they try to rationalize why they betrayed everything they thought they believed about themselves and possibly spiral into madness), or get graphic descriptions of exactly how terrible it would be to burn to death in a fireball or lightning bolt, and yet, I'm not sure that the omission of such depictions is necessarily a confirmation of anything.
FWIW, I always assumed that part of the reason liches must be evil is due to the depraved but unspecified rituals they've had to perform. My assumption was that it requires ruthlessly exploiting and/or killing many innocents over a period of time (or similar evil act) in order to perfect the rituals required. By the time you've got through that, any moral high ground has been well and truly ceded.
With the nature of the ritual left unclear and up to the GM, it's the GM's call whether or not anything heinous has to be done.
The classic ritual from the Best of Dragon including drinking a bunch of poison mixed with blood taken from a vampire and a werewolf and some other stuff, making it seem like something a *good* character could get away with (Ooh, I killed a couple Chaotic Evil monsters! The paladin cheered until he found out what I planned on doing with the blood...).
The most prominent lich active on Golarion, Arazni, doesn't seem to have personally done anything evil to become a lich, and wasn't really much of a participant in her own lich-i-fication.
In the Forgotten Realms, or in Greyhawk, you could become a lich by wearing the wrong hat. (The Crown of Horns or the Crown of Blackmoor.)
And yet, if the GM wants to go that route, he's entirely in his rights to say that for character X to become a lich, he's got to sacrifice and bath in the blood of a baby (of his own species) for each year of life that he's lived, absorbing their potential lives to extend his own. It would certainly be thematic, and as evil as it gets (particularly if the babies have to be no older than X days or months old, and must all be sacrificed on the same night, forcing him to acquire forty to sixty babies of the right age, and possibly leading to him arranging for a large crop of succulent babies to be born around the right time, with all the squick that pertains...).
In any event, it's creating a rule to reinforce an assumption that was made in absence of such a rule. The downside of something so circular is that you just go round and round and never see anything new.
To the OP. One of my Party Members in the campaign in which I am a player. He became a Lich and is actually no more powerful than my Cavalier. In fact he is slightly weaker. Though he does make a wonderful night watchman.
Note: We have all types of alignment in our 5 man band.
P.S.: There is a small trilogy of books that were printed under license to use the DnD logo. It is called Shadows of the Gods. Its main hero is an Evil cleric of Hexor/Hextor.
Note: it used the Creator's own setting which gave clerics a pseudo-channel Energy similar to a Paladin's lay-on hands
I don't remember where I read about the evil ritual requirements (maybe RotRL). I think arazni is something of a special case, personally. I'd have more sympathy with accepting a good lich who'd been lichified against their will.
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Again I think part of it has to do with the whole infused with negative energy, trapping the persons soul until destroyed thing that goes along with being undead. Also if you lined up 10 little girls the mummie would smite each and every one of them, it guards and kills without any sense of right and wrong. Mindless killing machines made with negative energy sound rather evil. For the more mindful mummies, see Lich above.
Bold - How can something without any sense of right and wrong, be intrinsically evil? That makes zero sense.
Italics - That whole, "People don't kill people, guns kill people" argument, eh? ;)**********
Moving on, as far as the "negative energy" argument goes, it's a bad one. Negative Energy is not evil. Yes, negative energy tends to be a tool of evil, but so do good intentions. Are good intentions evil?
In fact, let's compare the Negative Energy Plane and the Positive Energy Plane:
To an observer, there's little to see on the Negative Energy Plane. It is a dark, empty place, an eternal pit where a traveler can fall until the plane itself steals away all light and life. The Negative Energy Plane is the most hostile of the Inner Planes, the most uncaring and intolerant of life. Only creatures immune to its life-draining energies can survive there.
The Negative Energy Plane has the following traits:
- Subjective Directional Gravity
- Major Negative-Dominant: Some areas within the plane have only the minor negative-dominant trait, and these islands tend to be inhabited.
Planes with this trait are vast, empty reaches that suck the life out of travelers who cross them. They tend to be lonely, haunted planes, drained of color and filled with winds bearing the soft moans of those who died within them. There are two kinds of negative-dominant traits: minor negative-dominant and major negative-dominant. On minor negative-dominant planes, living creatures take 1d6 points of damage per round. At 0 hit points or lower, they crumble into ash.
Major negative-dominant planes are even more dangerous. Each round, those within must make a DC 25 Fortitude save or gain a negative level. A creature whose negative levels equal its current levels or Hit Dice is slain, becoming a wraith. The death ward spell protects a traveler from the damage and energy drain of a negative-dominant plane.
- Enhanced Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities that use negative energy are enhanced. Class abilities that use negative energy, such as channel negative energy, gain a +4 bonus to the save DC to resist the ability.
- Impeded Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities that use positive energy (including cure spells) are impeded. Characters on this plane take a –10 penalty on saving throws made to remove negative levels bestowed by an energy drain attack.
The Positive Energy Plane has no surface and is akin to the Plane of Air with its wide-open nature. However, every bit of this plane glows brightly with innate power. This power is dangerous to mortal forms, which are not made to handle it. Despite the beneficial effects of the plane, it is one of the most hostile of the Inner Planes. An unprotected character on this plane swells with power as positive energy is forced upon her. Then, because her mortal frame is unable to contain that power, she is immolated, like a mote of dust caught at the edge of a supernova. Visits to the Positive Energy Plane are brief, and even then travelers must be heavily protected.
The Positive Energy Plane has the following traits:
- Subjective Directional Gravity
- Major Positive-Dominant: Some regions of the plane have the minor positive-dominant trait instead, and those islands tend to be inhabited.
An abundance of life characterizes planes with this trait. Like negative-dominant planes, positive-dominant planes can be either minor or major. A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colors are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy swirling through the plane. All individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 as an extraordinary ability.
Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, which kills it.
- Enhanced Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities that use positive energy are enhanced. Class abilities that use positive energy, such as channel positive energy, gain a +4 bonus to the save DC to resist the ability.
- Impeded Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities that use negative energy (including inflict spells) are impeded.
So, enough negative energy overwhelms and kills mortals, and enough positive energy... overwhelms and kills mortals.
Seems pretty neutral to me.**********
Or, how about this: A good/neutral caster has some pressing need to become immortal (what that need is isn't important - Just know the need is there.) He doesn't want to do some of the horrible things that are required to craft that Lich's Phylactery, but what he wants is less important than the greater cause.
What's to stop that caster, after he successfully becomes a Lich, from getting an Atonement?
Does the atonement work? If yes, then clearly it doesn't make sense that "all undead must be evil." If no, why doesn't it? Negative Energy is not evil, and sentient creatures with a sense of morality are allowed to choose their own path (alignment), so what's forcing this one into evil?
My PoV :
By default undead tend to be evil in PF, I suspect the explanation for this is the alien nature of the transformation and the fact that negative energy is unable to create true life. Undeath is in many ways a mockery of life and 'good' encompasses a respect for life.
As far as I can tell undead are barely capable of basic emotion, good and positive emotions tend to be twisted into obsession, ruthless ambition, relentless cravings, apparent insanity and hatred. Willingly subjecting yourself to that is morally gray at best.
That said undead do not have to be evil, ghosts do not have to be evil for one but there has to be a very good reason for undead to cling to morality, 99% of undead should be evil though and nearly all undead would become bitter and hateful in time.
Personally I think attaining lichdom should be damn hard, a person should be willing to sacrifice nearly everything and damn nearly everyone, including themselves, to attain their goal as such I would not be inclined to allow 'good' liches to exist. That said it doesn't mean that 'evil' liches have to be champions of evil, they might be less compassionate and caring, done away with the distractions life offers, abandoning love and compassion for a ruthless efficiency but still hold to many of the same goals they did in life.