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So, I have a player who eventually wants to become a Lich and so was reading up on it and realized that other than the picture nothing really says they have to be ugly (unless I missed something). So, why is it the lich is so ugly... are there spells than can preserve his/her form as it was at death? I seem to recall reading about a lich doing just that in some book but it was so long ago I can't recall what spell was used ....
Anyone ever have a player become a lich is it vastly overpowering?
Thank you
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I just read through the Lich template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lich). According to it, almost all lichs allow their body to decay after a while, as they do not need to eat or sleep to survive and they can easily change their appearance with Disguise Self or another spell.
Oh, and it also says that the decades of solitude involved in obtaining lichdom, as well as the centuries afterwards, inevitably drives lichs Evil and sociopathic. So make sure your player knows that, lol.
PS: I'd estimate becoming a lich worth 3-4 levels of a PC class.
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A lich is a CR 2 adjustment, which means at early levels, it counts as a +2 level adjustment, and after a few levels, it becomes a +1 level adjustment.
However, since it's pretty impossible to become a lich at low levels, the lich will simply always be one level behind.
Example: In a party of 10th level characters, a lich would be a 9th level character with one level of "lich" and will cap out 19th level.
As for becoming a lich, the book says:
The quest to become a lich is a lengthy one. While construction of the magical phylactery to contain the spellcaster's soul is a critical component, a prospective lich must also learn the secrets of transferring his soul into the receptacle and of preparing his body for the transformation into undeath, neither of which are simple tasks. Further complicating the ritual is the fact that no two bodies or souls are exactly alike—a ritual that works for one spellcaster might simply kill another or drive him insane. The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion, but should involve expenditures of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, numerous deadly adventures, and a large number of difficult skill checks over the course of months, years, or decades.The Lich's Phylactery
An integral part of becoming a lich is the creation of the phylactery in which the character stores his soul. The only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich can rejuvenate after it is killed (see Creating a Lich, below).
Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
So 1st, you are going to need the 120,000 GP and the Craft Wonderous item feat. Then you are going to need to invest the time and extra cash in the "Research" to figure out how to transfer your soul to the phylactery.
I would never let a character become a lich before 10th level and probably a few levels after that.
As for their appearances, Reynard is pretty on point. The lich lives for centuries and after a while, physical appearance simply doesn't matter to them.
For the vain lich, there is always Gentle Repose. Preserves the body and lasts days per level.
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A lich is a CR 2 adjustment, which means at early levels, it counts as a +2 level adjustment, and after a few levels, it becomes a +1 level adjustment.
However, since it's pretty impossible to become a lich at low levels, the lich will simply always be one level behind.
Example: In a party of 10th level characters, a lich would be a 9th level character with one level of "lich" and will cap out 19th level.
Do you have a source for this? AFAIK there was no character level adjustment for templates in PF by design.
I recommend lichdom. It rocks! :-)
Do you have a source for this? AFAIK there was no character level adjustment for templates in PF by design.A lich is a CR 2 adjustment, which means at early levels, it counts as a +2 level adjustment, and after a few levels, it becomes a +1 level adjustment.
However, since it's pretty impossible to become a lich at low levels, the lich will simply always be one level behind.
Example: In a party of 10th level characters, a lich would be a 9th level character with one level of "lich" and will cap out 19th level.
There is no level adjustment, but PF in way suggest handing out templates for free*. They don't have level adjustments because no flat formula works well across the boards. In short it is in the hands of the GM to decide how much each monster or template is worth.
*As an example they "suggest" using a monster's CR as part of its levels.
"Monsters as PC" goes into this to some extent.
Oh, and it also says that the decades of solitude involved in obtaining lichdom, as well as the centuries afterwards, inevitably drives lichs Evil and sociopathic. So make sure your player knows that, lol.
I'd call bullcrap on that rule if I were the DM, but seems that's one of those "canon" facts that I shake my head at, given there are Fallen Celestials and Ascended Fiends in the D&D world, along with non-evil Undead (Ghosts, anyone?), and I actually have a Lawful Neutral Necromancer in my Kingmaker group who eventually plans to become a Lich, wich I am totally okay with. Just my two copper cents on that issue.
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I got 99 problems but a lich...
Never mind.
I think their flesh keeps decaying. There is a mummy in one of the modules that puts gentle repose on herself. This probably works for litches too.
Being a lich isn't overpowered, but it brings many social issues if you don't take care of your appearance. As you must die to become a lich, your body is just a lifeless corpse, which will decay swiftly. Personally I believe that all the eldritch ennergy flowing through it dry it.
Gentle repose can be your ally to take care of that. Or alter self, greater polymorph, etc.
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Liches be shoppin!
<.<
>.>
*.*
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Do you have a source for this? AFAIK there was no character level adjustment for templates in PF by design.A lich is a CR 2 adjustment, which means at early levels, it counts as a +2 level adjustment, and after a few levels, it becomes a +1 level adjustment.
However, since it's pretty impossible to become a lich at low levels, the lich will simply always be one level behind.
Example: In a party of 10th level characters, a lich would be a 9th level character with one level of "lich" and will cap out 19th level.
There HAS to be a level adjustment, templates are too powerful and it's unfair to other players who don't have templates. The rules do say that as you gain levels, you get bonus levels and catch up to your party, although you will always be one level behind.
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Oh, and it also says that the decades of solitude involved in obtaining lichdom, as well as the centuries afterwards, inevitably drives lichs Evil and sociopathic. So make sure your player knows that, lol.I'd call bullcrap on that rule if I were the DM, but seems that's one of those "canon" facts that I shake my head at, given there are Fallen Celestials and Ascended Fiends in the D&D world, along with non-evil Undead (Ghosts, anyone?), and I actually have a Lawful Neutral Necromancer in my Kingmaker group who eventually plans to become a Lich, wich I am totally okay with. Just my two copper cents on that issue.
Well, to be honest, that part is not rules text, but rather flavor text. But I think that having a caster who wakes up one day, creates a phylactery, and becomes a lich, without doing anything else, is a crappy way to do it.
Simplest solutions is use the CR Adjustment as a ECL adjustment Ala ARG's table.
ECL+2 from 1-5; ECL+1 from 6-10; ECL+0 from 11+
IIRC...
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The reason Liches are ugly is because they are blasphemous monstrosities of unlife sustained by a steady diet of negative energy and bitter resentment at mortality.
Much like the Dutch. :-)
My take is that I'd handle turning Lich much like I would the arcane discovery feat of immortality for wizards. Granted, it's a level 20 feat, but one tht's a valid choice and comparable imo. Now, yes it's just a feat selection, but none the less I'd have my player who wants this feat to slowly follow a trail of bread crumbs making the proper leaps in arcane theory to explain their discovery.
I would expect, if he simply desired lich-ness, to do the same thing. And, given they marked immortality as a level 20th ability, I think I would keep in mind that any pc lich, should be similarly leveled(namely 18th). While, yes, a lich has huge bonuses, I'd say it's decay is part of it's cost compared to vanilla immortality. Of course, it could be abated with repose(possibly made permanent via item or spell).
But that's just my 2 cents on the subject.
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Personally, I'd wager nobody becomes a Liche just for the immortality. There are other ways to accomplish that which don't require becoming undead. A prospective liche is after two things:
- All the neato powers with which he can take on his percieved enemies
- Being undead means he need devote ZERO energy and attention to maintaining his biology and con focus on important stuff like world-shaking arcane research. Who has time for flatulence and orgasms?
Is it any wonder they tend to "let themselves go"?
Liches be crazy!
I think most of the fluff surrounding the lich template is meant to drive home that the allure of lichdom tends to attract characters with a certain mindset. However there is nothing that says a lich cannot or should not care about their appearance. Gentle Repose is a low level spell that takes care of the issue admirably, at very little cost.
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Well, to be honest, that part is not rules text, but rather flavor text. But I think that having a caster who wakes up one day, creates a phylactery, and becomes a lich, without doing anything else, is a crappy way to do it.Is it flavor text? I checked the PRD and the SRD and didn't see in either where it says the prospective lich must spend decades in solitude, or any reference to them being sociopaths.
While I do agree that if the player wants to become a lich, he should have to spend considerable game time (either with the party's help or on one-on-one games), as well as considerable in-game resources. Just "Yep, I made my Spellcraft, there's my phylactery" wouldn't be good enough in my opinion, as a player or a DM.
The Lich Entry on the PRD doesn't say in the flavor text that a lich must spend decades in solitude and the sociopathy is implied.
Few creatures are more feared than the lich. The pinnacle of necromantic art, the lich is a spellcaster who has chosen to shed his life as a method to cheat death by becoming undead. While many who reach such heights of power stop at nothing to achieve immortality, the idea of becoming a lich is abhorrent to most creatures. The process involves the extraction of the spellcaster's life-force and its imprisonment in a specially prepared phylactery—the spellcaster gives up life, but in trapping life he also traps his death, and as long as his phylactery remains intact he can continue on in his research and work without fear of the passage of time.
The quest to become a lich is a lengthy one. While construction of the magical phylactery to contain the spellcaster's soul is a critical component, a prospective lich must also learn the secrets of transferring his soul into the receptacle and of preparing his body for the transformation into undeath, neither of which are simple tasks. Further complicating the ritual is the fact that no two bodies or souls are exactly alike—a ritual that works for one spellcaster might simply kill another or drive him insane. The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion, but should involve expenditures of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, numerous deadly adventures, and a large number of difficult skill checks over the course of months, years, or decades.
This is the entire flavor text of the lich. I have bolded the relevant parts. While the text does not say that the lich must spend their life in solitude, it does imply that a lich should be power mad and the build rules say you must be evil. That leads to a lot of valid assumptions about a lich's character. Now that isn't to say that you aren't free to change that, but that is the established canon.
As for the latter half, it basically goes to what you said about not just waking up one day and suddenly you're a lich.
The impression I get is that the process of becoming anathema to life itself usually involves kicking puppies or other vile acts. There's no reason to coddle them and talk about how their good inside.
Really the mythological lore behind them and at least golarion lore supports my puppy kicking theory.
Well, to be honest, that part is not rules text, but rather flavor text. But I think that having a caster who wakes up one day, creates a phylactery, and becomes a lich, without doing anything else, is a crappy way to do it.Oh, and it also says that the decades of solitude involved in obtaining lichdom, as well as the centuries afterwards, inevitably drives lichs Evil and sociopathic. So make sure your player knows that, lol.I'd call bullcrap on that rule if I were the DM, but seems that's one of those "canon" facts that I shake my head at, given there are Fallen Celestials and Ascended Fiends in the D&D world, along with non-evil Undead (Ghosts, anyone?), and I actually have a Lawful Neutral Necromancer in my Kingmaker group who eventually plans to become a Lich, wich I am totally okay with. Just my two copper cents on that issue.
When did I ever say he'd do it with the snap of his fingers? He'll have to work for the damned template.
My friend's character is not obsessed with power. What he wants is to attain the knowledge and secrets of life, death, and souls. Death would interrupt (and potentially end) his research, so becoming a lich not only helps him understand undeath as he makes himself a guinea pig for experimentation, but also wards off Pharasma's call till the time when his research is finished. Though by that time, he either ascends to become a god of knowledge and research, or fades from the cosmos itself, leaving only his ultimate grimoire behind. Both ideas sound rather epic, so I hope the character won't die during the campaign.
Liches in myth where usually people who made a pact with death. A phylactery(sp?) is actually a religious item. As most people wore them death would simply use that as the container for their soul. He would then hide it from both the Lich and most mortals.
When a Lich fell the phylactery would resurrect them and then teleport to a new hiding place.
They aren't necessarily Good nor Evil. Now most are evil but not because they become a Lich. More if they became a Lich because the were Evil. A devote LG cleric could become a Lich depending on their Deity. Now it might require them to conduct a specific ceremony afterwards, but it is still possible.
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Do you have a source for this? AFAIK there was no character level adjustment for templates in PF by design.A lich is a CR 2 adjustment, which means at early levels, it counts as a +2 level adjustment, and after a few levels, it becomes a +1 level adjustment.
However, since it's pretty impossible to become a lich at low levels, the lich will simply always be one level behind.
Example: In a party of 10th level characters, a lich would be a 9th level character with one level of "lich" and will cap out 19th level.
There HAS to be a level adjustment, templates are too powerful and it's unfair to other players who don't have templates. The rules do say that as you gain levels, you get bonus levels and catch up to your party, although you will always be one level behind.
Well... when it suggests that a monster with no racial hit die might be powerful enough to warrant a +1 level adjustment, I don't think they were talking about the lich. Mostly they're talking about races that they put into the ARG a little while later (the 1/2cr races) and a few that are a bit more powerful than that.
Liches are quite something more, I'm not convinced +1 level would really cover it.
At least in 3.x, character level adjustment on a template was usually higher than CR adjustment. The 3.5 lich gets +2 CR for +4 CL.
And the stuff you get, it's pretty impressive for a wizard. Immunity to cold and electricity and other undead immunities (mind-affecting, stunning, bleed, death effects, anything that requires a Fortitude save). Damage reduction and +5 natural AC. Rejuvenation if you get killed, and self-healing for 1d8 per round, no limit, if you escape. +2 to Int, Wis and Cha, with that Cha bonus also increasing your HP.
The defensive abilities are much more powerful than the offensive ones, but all in all I think it's quite a lot. You become immune to about half the attacks in the game without casting any spells, and if you get killed, you respawn without level loss.
I highly doubt that's worth only one level. Four (according to 3.5) might be a bit much, but it's not as far off as one.
Liches like all undead have a link to the negative material plane, hence the Eeeevil in their nature. A few Netherese managed to become liches without being evil though so it is possible. Also the elves have the Baelnorn, liches that serve the community. Then again, thats all 3rd ed or earlier and technically not path, DM call sort of thing.
A pc goes lich he should be ready to embrace a "larger" worldview, y'know, Eeeevil. As to the sociopath part? Hey, they're already pc's, you gotta be a little whacked for that in the first place...
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Do you have a source for this? AFAIK there was no character level adjustment for templates in PF by design.A lich is a CR 2 adjustment, which means at early levels, it counts as a +2 level adjustment, and after a few levels, it becomes a +1 level adjustment.
However, since it's pretty impossible to become a lich at low levels, the lich will simply always be one level behind.
Example: In a party of 10th level characters, a lich would be a 9th level character with one level of "lich" and will cap out 19th level.
There HAS to be a level adjustment, templates are too powerful and it's unfair to other players who don't have templates. The rules do say that as you gain levels, you get bonus levels and catch up to your party, although you will always be one level behind.
Well... when it suggests that a monster with no racial hit die might be powerful enough to warrant a +1 level adjustment, I don't think they were talking about the lich. Mostly they're talking about races that they put into the ARG a little while later (the 1/2cr races) and a few that are a bit more powerful than that.
Liches are quite something more, I'm not convinced +1 level would really cover it.
At least in 3.x, character level adjustment on a template was usually higher than CR adjustment. The 3.5 lich gets +2 CR for +4 CL.
And the stuff you get, it's pretty impressive for a wizard. Immunity to cold and electricity and other undead immunities (mind-affecting, stunning, bleed, death effects, anything that requires a Fortitude save). Damage reduction and +5 natural AC. Rejuvenation if you get killed, and self-healing for 1d8 per round, no limit, if you escape. +2 to Int, Wis and Cha, with that Cha bonus also increasing your HP.
The defensive abilities are much more powerful than the offensive ones, but all in all I think it's quite a...
I agree with you that it should be more, but the rules seem clear that it's +2-+1 Level adjustment at high levels.
I don't allow monster PCs unless it's a race with a template like Tielfing. So no Half-Fiend Vampires in my games.
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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lich
If you look at the ecology section it tells you that once the lich stops eating and drinking it loses the nourishment necessary to keep skin strong and supple, and soon the skin and muscles contract, snap, and wither.
So he just keeps eating n drinking like normal and he will be fine. Plus in my opinion that would also help him to stay more civilized and less likely to fall to the path of evil.
Well... when it suggests that a monster with no racial hit die might be powerful enough to warrant a +1 level adjustment, I don't think they were talking about the lich. Mostly they're talking about races that they put into the ARG a little while later (the 1/2cr races) and a few that are a bit more powerful than that.
Liches are quite something more, I'm not convinced +1 level would really cover it.
At least in 3.x, character level adjustment on a template was usually higher than CR adjustment. The 3.5 lich gets +2 CR for +4 CL.
And the stuff you get, it's pretty impressive for a wizard. Immunity to cold and electricity and other undead immunities (mind-affecting, stunning, bleed, death effects, anything that requires a Fortitude save). Damage reduction and +5 natural AC. Rejuvenation if you get killed, and self-healing for 1d8 per round, no limit, if you escape. +2 to Int, Wis and Cha, with that Cha bonus also increasing your HP.
The defensive abilities are much more powerful than the offensive ones, but all in all I think it's quite a lot. You become immune to about half the attacks in the game without casting any spells, and if you get killed, you respawn without level loss.
I highly doubt that's worth only one level. Four (according to 3.5) might be a bit much, but it's not as far off as one.
I'll raise you with a fear aura and high racial bonuses to skill checks, altogether I do not think it should be doable by an adventuring player it should take alot of investment in time and resources outside of the span of a typical AP.
It would also be extremely unfair to give a +2 CR template with the rest of the party remaining at the same level even if you rule slowing down advancement from there on at most it will come up one level behind.
It will be undoable by level 9 for most since it requires 120,000 gold and craft wondrous item to attempt it but according to lore will most likely fail if you do not pour in several hundred thousands of gp, numerous difficult skill checks and alot of time in research.. basically out off reach for a PC of any level.
Additional Lich Information from Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Undead Revisited
"It is not merely force of will that propels one to lichdom, nor is it the simple desire to avoid death, though these are certainly factors in the mindset of the would-be lich. Instead, those who would follow the path of the undying mind must seek out tomes of forbidden magic and lost lore. Though the initiates might not be evil when they begin, the process under which they become liches drives them slowly into the arms of corruption—the focus they must develop drives out all other concerns, including the civilized needs of friendship and love."
Sounds like flavor text to me, and flavor text can be easily ignored depending on GM.
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Sounds like flavor text to me, and flavor text can be easily ignored depending on GM.Additional Lich Information from Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Undead Revisited
"It is not merely force of will that propels one to lichdom, nor is it the simple desire to avoid death, though these are certainly factors in the mindset of the would-be lich. Instead, those who would follow the path of the undying mind must seek out tomes of forbidden magic and lost lore. Though the initiates might not be evil when they begin, the process under which they become liches drives them slowly into the arms of corruption—the focus they must develop drives out all other concerns, including the civilized needs of friendship and love."
Unlike the 'non-flavored' fact that says that liches are always evil ?
It is simply explaining why liches are always evil, without it you only have the 'non-flavored' facts, separating fluff from crunch is something invented by RAW gamers to dodge RAI, PFS made this worse.
The GM can ignore everything, it is not the basis of PF though and apparently even less so in PF Golarion but that should not stop a GM that wants things differently in his campaign.
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Look, if a Good PC wants to become a powerful immortal spellcaster and keeper of lore, there are ways to do that without becoming a liche. I'm sure there are plenty of Good outsiders who would be willing to help you in that regard - but just as becoming a Liche requires a lifetime (sometimes several lifetimes) of selfish, monomaniacal study and horribleness, becoming an undying Saint is going to require a lifetime (probably several lifetimes) of selfless sacrifice and service to the greater good.
Then what of a Lawful Neutral one, who merely wishes to pursue knowledge not for his own gain, but for the gain of others as well?
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Paizo made a conscious decision not to have non-evil undead. I guess that works to make a "sane" set of "core" books where things don't get too weird.
But for personal use, I'm not that dedicated to "all undead are evil" as a principle. Vampires and ghosts in particular, but even some liches and mummies, I can see as being non-evil. Not necessarily ideal son-in-law material, and usually evil because being that kind of creature challenges your ethics, and because evil people are more likely to end up that way, but not ontologically compelled to be that way.
Mummies being evil is still rather baffling to me. They're supposed to be tomb guardians and the preserved bodies of priest-kings, more like the Living Monoliths* than the Agents of the Grave**. It wouldn't make much sense unless you go by that obscure theory that Ancient Egypt is evil.
* = Osiriani Prestige Class which turns you into a living statue and guardian of the pharaohs.
** = Undead Prestige Class made for agents of the Whispering Way, exclusively evil undead worshippers.
I love undead.
I'm bonkers about them.
I forget which book exactly, was one of the many 3.0 Undead books by some 3rd party publisher. They went into some great detail about the psychology of those mortals that achieve immortality. Its different from creatures that are naturally immortal or can live to ludicrous ages on their own since a mortal mind isn't really built for that kind of time scale.
Its not binding in the ruleset. But really, if you're just referencing the PRD when creating something as awesome as a Lich you're missing out.
Liches have always been a favorite. To me, a Lich's 'evil' is not necessarily built into the process. Sure, you can be a evil bastard and now you're a undead evil bastard. Par for the course really.
A good character can absolutely become a Lich. Nothing preventing him from doing so, but more important is his reason for seeking immortality! Is he doing so to pursue some research? To protect his family? To achieve some seemingly impossible goal?
Then what happens once he's achieved his goal?
Worse yet, if immortality was his goal all along, what now?
Even if there's the moment where lightning splits the sky and the newly born lich throws his hands up into the sky, exalted by his new found immortality, faced with the entirety of time to pursue anything he wants...
Dude...that's a loooong time.
I mean, when I have unexpected days off I sometimes find myself doing nothing all day. I can't imagine how it is for someone, even a driven and motivated person once he's expended all his interests. He has FOREVER to do so after all.
The way I see it, on any timeline long enough the Lich eventually succeeds at his initial goal (or is destroyed) the Lichdom was a prerequisite for (most likely a goal achievable in only an extra lifetime or two). Now faced with eternity where days start to bleed into weeks, months, years it starts to go unhinged until eventually its rendered catatonic by the ages and the weight of its memories.
It's so tragic.
I love it.
Now, short term I see no reason why a lich has to go evil. Long term I don't see a way to avoid going mad/misguided/evil
I think the Evil alignment comes from the Negative Energy.
Look at the godsmouth heresy and you see a non-evil magus zombie.
I personally make it any non-intelligent undead are automatically evil simply because of the negative energy. While a newly created intelligent undead slide towards undead based on how they became undead. That way it depends on the person whether or not they are totally Evil.
Director of Narrative
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I’m a big fan of liches.
While it goes without saying that any individual GM can do whatever they want to do at their tables, as far as we’re concerned when it comes to Golarion is that pretty much any undead is evil (with the exception of some ghosts and very individual examples that have a good story behind them).
The big thing about ghosts is that they don’t really want to be ghosts, it’s an aftereffect, something that happened as a circumstance. People who want to transition into undeath as a way to preserve their life are obviously circumventing the system and have maniacal, fanatical aspirations.
I got a chance to write the Whispering Way article and the article about significant liches within our setting, and one thing I certainly tried to seal into that information is that once you decide to make the transition into undeath as a means to extend your own mortality, you’ve already sacrificed a piece of your humanity. The formula to achieve a successful transition into lichdom *is* different from creature to creature (so a GM has a lot of liberty), BUT it always requires a significant sacrifice or atrocious act. Immortality is never easy, especially when sought by the eager and insecure.
But, for those of you playing in homebrews or something, of course, do what works in your game. That’s the beauty of RPGs.
I get the impression at times that some players or dms want to de evilfiy the act of becoming undead, I really don't get this viewpoint. I think exceptions at times make for good stories , but they should be exceptions and rare.
What makes you think they should absolutely be Evil?
some only wish to complete research or protect. Now a mindless undead yes they more than likely should be Evil because of the negative energy powering them. But a Lich or even Graveknight could be Neutral or even slightly Good.
For a Lawful Good examples of Graveknights look at the Black Knight and Green Knight from True Arthurian lore. They chose to sacrifice everything to protect the Lady of the Lake when she became the Lady of the Lake by being sacrificed by her husband, so he could become a Lich and carry on her research, while she was on her death bed. The Knights had devoted their life to her and allowed this to happen because she willed it.
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Well...in cannon, as established, to become a lich you have to do some pretty reprehensible atrocities, that would certainly make you qualify for evil before you ever achieved lichdom (see Daigle's post above). IIRC, a GraveKnight, while less intentional, are still formed from pretty much the worse members of society that humanity has to offer.
I don't recall any reading of Arthurian legend that posits that Green or "Black Knights" (Their were multiple figures of that name) were undead, nor any reading that says the lady of the lake was sacrificed so her husband could become a lich. The Green Knight was almost certainly a fairy or similar figure of the other world.
I don't recall any reading of Arthurian legend that posits that Green or "Black Knights" (Their were multiple figures of that name) were undead, nor any reading that says the lady of the lake was sacrificed so her husband could become a lich. The Green Knight was almost certainly a fairy or similar figure of the other world.
In the original Arthurian Lore (dates back to shortly after Rome invaded the British Isles) She was sacrificed when she was on her death bed so her husband could become a Lich (term wasn't used originally as this term came around after the legend was scribed) to continue her arcane research. The Black Knight and Green Knight that guard the path to her Lake chose to become the "Trials of Honor" to protect her from those who would abuse her power. They knew via visions that she would ascend to a state of existence beyond normal humans.
The original terms for them were Lichyrn, the knights were called Death Watchers.
The multiple Black Knights were originally called Dark Knights. This was changed in modernized versions.
EDIT: to clarify the term Undead historically means anything that was previously dead or cannot die by mortal means.
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But for personal use, I'm not that dedicated to "all undead are evil" as a principle. Vampires and ghosts in particular, but even some liches and mummies, I can see as being non-evil. Not necessarily ideal son-in-law material, and usually evil because being that kind of creature challenges your ethics, and because evil people are more likely to end up that way, but not ontologically compelled to be that way.
I am actually running a game where there is a whole country run by Vampire Republicans who only care about money and are ruthlessly profit driven. The entire ruling class of the country became Vampires simply so that they could enjoy their wealth forever.
From the Monsters Manual of the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons; page 223 last paragraph.
Archlich
From time to time, sages have heard rumors of liches having alignments other than evil, and even lawful good liches apparently have existed. There have been reports of priests who, in extreme circumstances, have become liches. These reports have recently been verified, but the archlich is as rare as Roc's teeth.
Way back when, this excerpt caught my attention, and ever since, made me yearn for the chance to attain archlichdom!
I don't get how anybody can say that a lich can be anything BUT Evil. They are fueled by negative energy, which is pretty clearly evil. They are undead, which are always evil. It says in the description, that they are evil. No matter your intentions, you cannot become a lich without becoming evil.