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Based on everything you know about an adventuring "day", how much can a party withstand?? (EL=Encounter Level)
Total XP: 23,200xp (or 3,866 for each of six players)
SCENARIO:
Number of Level 4 Player Characters: 6 (Fighter, Oracle, Rogue, Bard, Wizard, and Sorcerer
Number of NPCs: 1 Cleric
Average Party Level: 5 (due to 6 players) not including 1 NPC
ENCOUNTERS PLANNED:
A. EL6 (1 Berzerker Orc, 6 Orcs)
B. EL7 (1 Shaman Orc, 12 Orcs)
C. EL7 (24 Orcs)
D. EL8 (6 Orcs, 2 Worgs, 2 Orc Worg-Riders)
E. EL7 (12 Orcs, 1 Shaman Orc)
F. EL9 (1 Orc Leader, 1 Shaman Orc, 1 Berzerker Orc, 3 Orcs)
Question: According to typical Pathfinder RPG module design, how many of these encounters can the PC party (including 1 NPC) handle before their resources are so tapped that they are "done for the day", or before they'll get killed?
I've worked hard to design this orc lair adventure, but now have "cold feet" and need your help determining if this is too much or just right?
PLEASE RESPOND IF YOU CAN: My game is tomorrow =)
Thanks!
How good are they at working at a team, and what do the individual party members trend towards strategically. I've seen parties who could take all that in a day, and others who would get tired after D or E.
I think given your encounters, the most pertinent question here is going to involve the spellcasters spell choices. That being said, the fact that this is 6 level 4 characters instead of 4 level 6 characters is actually a hindrance, as access to fireball would pretty much terminate half your encounters, with the standard orcs dying instantly.
In theory, as the system is designed, an encounter of CR=APL should deplete the party of 20-25% of their resources. Since all of your encounters are above APL, that would suggest the party's resources would be depleted or near-depleted after encounter D.
(note: resources can include party members; a 100% depletion of resources could be a TPK)
That said: Experienced, tactically-minded groups that work well together could probably handle the entire series of encounters, especially with some luck of the dice involved. At the same time, groups that are prone to spending all of their "best" resources up front could find themselves out of gas by encounter B or C.
I suggest you leave the way open for a tactical withdrawal as a possibility if the party finds themselves overwhelmed.
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Thanks for the info.
Based on our experience with the Pathfinder RPG, what patterns do you see?
There used to be a 13.33 factor of some kind, but over the years I've forgotten the rule about types of encounters. Perhaps this is written in the old 3.0 DMG, or maybe in the Gamemastery Guide....
If anyone knows the location of this jem of information, please let me know.
I'm interested in solid module designs and practice generating encounters while having a better handle on when it's too much. And, not just by observing, I want to predict and design better.
Thanks
13 1/3 is the number of encounters at average party level that will increase the characters one level in 3.5.
Wait a second. Just a thought, but wasn't there a recent discussion Bout Orcs being under CRed due to how Ferocity works and how dangerous it makes them relative to CR? Or am I crazy?
On topic, I ran a similar arc once, with similar levels and circumstances (it's actually weird, they were level 4 too. I used drow tho). Short story is, it worked great. I hinted ahead tho that they had a looong day ahead of them, which likely helped them play accordingly.
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13 and 1/3 encounters between levels huh... yeah I remember that pretty well.
Can we figure out how this plays into a typical adventure path. I'm hoping to emulate that.
When I pick up the PAIZO APs I see encounters that are at-level or less, and I think, the players are just going to trample over that encounter...
I realize not all encounters should be challenging, hard or epic... but why not this time.
What I wonder about... is that this sort of math should be obvious were a simple table created. A very simple table showing not what happens all the time, but rather an IDEAL module path for encounter design.
I'm just struggling to draw one up.
Let's say the module is designed to advance the party to the next level. Then according the 13 1/3 rule there should be 13 "encounters" right?
If that is the case, all we need to do is break-down the remaining encounters....and of course, establish the CRs.. which seems hard to due as it is highly dependent on the CONTEXT of the adventuring day. A party who has 1 encounter in a day could very well handle an epic encounter i.e. APL+4, right?
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Keep in mind these are average encounters. There is nothing wrong with having a EL 1 encounter that becomes nothing but either a speed bump or one in which it is too tough for the party and they have to retreat.
Good game design does not always mean "appropriate levels" for encounters. This can also alleviate the dreaded 15 min adventuring day. Since the PC's will never know the encounter levels.
Keep in mind as well, just because a module is designed a particular way, it does not mean you can't expand upon or modify it for your home games.
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Right on Crimson Jester.... good point.
As for the "Module Design" I want a better handle on things like:
> Anticipating when enough encounters have been designed to level up the party
> Anticipating when its probably time to provide haven for rest and replenishment
> Anticipating, in my design, the number and assortment of CR encounters that are "enough" for the whole story.
Granted, this all varies, and many of us who've been playing for aeons do most on the fly, or just keep going until the story is done.
My questions today, however, are all about modular design (not for sale or publication) but modular design for my own campaigns.
Background: In my homebrew games over the past decade, they've tended to flow so thoroughly from one encounter to the next via overlapping story arcs, that in most cases the game plays like an episode of Keiffer Sutherland's "24". This is something I wish to depart from, if for no other reason than person growth. The games are fantastic and met with rave reviews, but the minute I become complacent I stop growing as a GM, thus I'm attempting to hash apart the elements that makes them complete, so I can deconstruct the modular structure and determine just how much an adventuring day can withstand (or should).
APL=Average Party Level; CR=Challenge Rating
Here's what I've learned:
> Any assortment of encounters are fine.
> Roughly 13.33 encounters = 1 level
> The game expects that 1/2 of all encounters the CR = APL
> Once you pass APL+3 for the encounter challenge, it may be impossible or result in serious fatalities (although this may be good for final fights)
> CRBp397 defines easy, average, challenging, hard, epic.
> GMGp42 explains tips on low and high encounters
> A GM should remember to rate a group of 6 players each with a Level 5 character as an APL 6 prior to determining encounter APL ratings
> An APL6 can confront Easy (CR=APL-1), Average (APL), Challenging (APL+1), Hard (APL +2), Epic (APL+3)
For the second half of the module planning, the GMG seems to recommend (p397) the idea of using an XP budget, selecting the hardest encounters, then filling in the rest. This would include creatures, traps or hazzards.
Using this basic guidance, let me know if you see the following as true?
Out of 13 encounters, one "Level's Worth" of game content might include:
> 50% at APL:
- >>CR 6
- >>CR 6 (2,400xp)
- >>CR 6 (2,400xp)
- >>CR 6 (2,400xp)
- >>CR 6 (2,400xp)
- >>CR 6 (2,400xp)
- >>CR 6 (2,400xp)
- >50% at various other levels (per GM's desire)
- CR5 (1,600xp)
- CR5 (1,600xp)
- CR7 (3,200xp)
- CR7 (3,200xp)
- >>CR8 (4,800xp)
- >>CR8 (4,800xp)
- >>CR9 (Final Epic Fight)(6,400xp)
Findings:
This brings the modular xp total to: 40k which is 6,666xp for each of the 6 players in this scenario. If the group is on the FAST XP Progression, this would level the party, and go over the neeeded allotment by 1200. This implies that a few of the encounters didn't need to be as high. If there were only 4 players the entire model would shift, and the epic encounter might be too fatal. Having 6 players versus 4 should probably make a big difference in GM's ideas of challenge planning.
Taking a swag at encounter levels probably accounts for the flexibility of having 4 players versus 6 at different times during the game i.e. referring to the set of 4 to 6 encounters in the second half of the plan that can be flexible in terms of challenge rating.
Half of the game the players fight CRs=APL. This makes planning easy to remember. Half the game the players fight CRs that vary to GM taste within the 5-step perameters of easy, average, challenging, hard, and epic.
I will return to analyze my current adventure content against these points. Stay tuned.
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So, in my current game I have 6 players each with a Level 4 character, making the APL=5.
Thus:
Easy=CR4, Average=CR5, Challenging=CR6, Hard=CR7, and Epic=CR8.
50% of encounters should be CR5. Yet, so far they have encountered CR6, and CR8. This means that unless I intended their battle with 2 Shambling Mounds to be "epic", potentially worth the casualty of a PC death, I perhaps should have considered 1 at CR 6, plus 1 other creature at CR3 instead. They are currently battling the Shambling Mounds, and its not going so well. lol
Out of 13 encounters, one "Level's Worth" of game content might include:
> 50% at APL:
•>>CR 5 (1600xp)
•>>CR 5 (1600xp)
•>>CR 5 (1600xp)
•>>CR 5 (1600xp)
•>>CR 5 (1600xp)
•>>CR 5 (1600xp)
>50% at various other levels (per GM's desire)
•CR4 (1200xp)
•CR6 (2400xp)
•CR6 (2400xp)
•CR6 (2400xp)
•>>CR7 (3200xp)
•>>CR7 (3200xp)
•>>CR8 (Final Epic Fight)(4800xp)
This would total 30,400xp divided by 6 players = 5066xp each.
Table 3-1 on p30 of the CRB suggests that on the fast track, this is just enough to level up each player in the party to 6th level.
Lessons Learned:
I had planned a large orc bash, and calculated the xp to level up the party pretty well. However, one player contracted lycanthropy and the full moon is tomorrow. Thus, the fought 4 werewolves (total CR6 = 2400/6 = 400 each) and party side-trekked to the woods and encountered the Shambling Mounds, earning them the xp for 2 CR6 monsters= 4800/6 = an additional total (including werewolves) of 1300xp each.
Looking back, there isn't anything wrong with the CR6 encounter of werewolves, but the 2 CR6 shambling mounds (Total CR=8) represent effectively an "epic" encounter (and one of sudden surprise).
It can be estimated that at least 1 character may die in the shambling mounds encounter - truely gruesome!
Next, I will come back to revisit what an encounter means to party resources, in order to best estimate the number of CR encounters a party can "handle" in a day, before needing rest and replenishment =) Stay tuned...
It might be easier to dispense with the a target number of encounters and just go by the XP total. If you know they need 60000 XP total (so 10000 XP each), then pick out 60000 XP worth of creatures and sort them into however many encounters makes sense. It also doesn't matter if an encounter is exactly one CR or the other as long as you can gauge how tough of a fight it'll be.
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It might be easier to dispense with the a target number of encounters and just go by the XP total. If you know they need 60000 XP total (so 10000 XP each), then pick out 60000 XP worth of creatures and sort them into however many encounters makes sense. It also doesn't matter if an encounter is exactly one CR or the other as long as you can gauge how tough of a fight it'll be.
True, MagiMaster, however after reviewing the guidelines in the GMG, a good rule of thumb is to make 50% of encounters APL. That said, I realize the rest is up to the GM. However, by listing the encounters for a given story arc, I'm able to see roughly how many would round out the story, and budget based on an epic last fight. I'm also more aware now of the CR levels for traps and hazzards that I may wish to place in the adventure, something that some GMs forget to do, or forget to award XP for. Sometimes GMs are surprised when the party suddenly levels, causing potential rework of CRs for the next module. A perfect case of this is my "orc-bash" adventure. Without going into details, it's important that the PCs fight the orcs before they gain access to the mass area-of-effect spells like fireball etc. If the party suddenly levels, and I'm not aware of thier rough point in the progression, I might have to rethink that type of game, or perhaps some monsters may become too uninteresting at more advanced levels.
Ultimately, I bet there's a rough formula within the APs ... which, with this type of observation should be recognizable if I wish to replicate and estimate the length of my own adventure path stories in a homebrew game.
I think I left a word out there. I meant to say if you know they need 60000 XP to level.
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Let's look at a themed variant (Savannah (Warm Plains) [Bestiary p326], with some more challenging encounters, while we fill in traps, hazzards (GMG p244+) and monsters (B=Bestiary).
Character Levels:5 ; Number of Players=6; Overall APL:6
Out of 13 encounters, one "Level's Worth" of game content might include:
Narrative: The party travels across a warm plain then enters an area of caves. The party seeks something within one of the caves at the edge of the plains they must cross. Once inside the cave, they encounter hazzards, traps and creatures meant to ward off any intruders from obtaining the item.
> 50% at APL:
•>>CR 6 (2,400xp); 3 Ankhegs (Bp15)
•>>CR 6 (2,400xp); 4 Cheetahs (Bp40)
•>>CR 6 (2,400xp); 1 Dire Hyena + 5 Hyenas (Bp179)
•>>CR 6 (2,400xp); 6 Gnolls (Bp155)
•>>CR 6 (2,400xp); 1 Wyvern Arrow Trap Near Cave(CRB461)
•>>CR 6 (2,400xp); 1 Hazzard: Accursed Pool (GMG p244)
>50% at various other levels (per GM's desire)
•CR5 (1,600xp) Bad Air (CR4+CR1 for Room Trap=CR5)
•CR5 (1,600xp) Awarded as an overall roleplay award OR assigned for slaying the Naga's minions (some minor treasure guardians etc.)
•CR7 (3,200xp) 1 Summon Monster Trap (CRB421)
•CR7 (3,200xp) 4 Violet Fungus (B274)
•>>CR8 (4,800xp) 1 Dire Tiger (Bestiary p265)
•>>CR8 (4,800xp) 1 Gorgon (B165)
•>>CR9 (Final Epic Fight)(6,400xp) 1 Naga, Spirit (B213)
Game Materials: A field to fight the ankhegs, a treetop villa to fight the gnolls, a craggy area to fight the Cheetas, a small cave complex to place traps, hazzards and treasure guardians. Total maps=approx 4
Question: The adventuring day... approximately how long might a GM estimate this adventure taking in "days" based on the CR levels listed above, assuming all of the encounters are planned encounters and not bypassed?
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The Adventuring Day (Estimates)
As a GM I might group this into "adventuring days" for better planning. This might give me visibility into things like: possible camp sites, selecting nighttime encounters, and generally estimating a little more game time for the whole "rest time".
Assumption: An APL CR encounter takes up 20-25% of the party's resources. Thus they might encounter Ankhegs, Cheetas, Hyenas and Gnolls before making camp on the first day. During the night they may encounter the dire tiger (possible not-so-random encounter).
The next day, they may either fight the dire tiger near the cave entrance (unless previously encountered.
Upon entering the cave, they would encounter the Wyvern Trap and Accursed Pool along with a trapped room with Bad Air. If the party encountered the Dire Tiger on the second day, they may be low on resources, otherwise progress to the room with Violet Fungus.
A resourceful party may press on to the Gorgon room then fight the Spirit Naga and minions, otherwise retreat outside the cave, and tackle those in the morning.
Estimated Duration In "Adventuring Days": 2-3 days.
This is still a rather "vanilla" adventure, and the GM would need to flesh out descriptions, backgrounds, create treasure, and place this adventure in the context of a running campaign, however so-far my prep time has only been about 45 minutes since I use a projector and MapTool and can craft all the maps on-the-fly as needed. With 1 more hour of prep, I could make the maps stunning, finish treasure, and jot notes about introduction and conclusion, NPCs or other interesting features to turn this "vanilla" adventure into something compelling.
Do you think the estimates of the "adventuring day" sound right? Any feedback or thoughts?
Thanks