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So, after just getting my copy of the Paths of Prestige book, I found myself more interested in Hellknight Signifier then the Dawnflower Dissident for my Oracle, the problem is, she worships Sarenrae.
Now, Sarenrae is NG, one step away from LG, so that would mean that LG would be an acceptable alignment for a Hellknight Signifier of Sarenrae, but the issue that occurs to me is how would such a character please both Sarenrae and the hellknights?
I'd have no idea which Order to join, and I think the Order of the Godclaw would strictly be off limits since Sarenrae isn't LG. I know Sarenrae has paladins, but I think it would be much more difficult for a hellknight to justify worshipping Sarenrae or for a worshipper of Sarenrae to justify being a hellknight.
While Sarenrae is a goddess of honesty, this is the only lawful aspect I can find in her, and it would be extremely difficult for a Hellknight to offer redemption to a criminal (especially when the hellknight knows that the lawful punishment for what the criminal has done is death).
If it helps, my Oracle's curse is Legalistic - which may already end up forcing the character to eventually become LG in due time, but for now I'm more interested in if anyone has any advice on being a hellknight that worships Sarenrae.
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I think Abadar is about as close as you can't get who worshiping a "sort of" goodly deity and still being a hellknight. Strictly speaking Hellknights interact rather frequently with lawful evil outsiders, in manners other then open conflict. Others might have more specifics to add, but this doesn't seem like something Sarenrae or Iomadae would approve of regardless of the quality of your intentions. Also Hellknights as a general rule are LN with a lean slight towards LE. I imagine there could easily be various situations that could arise that might put you at odds with the tenants of a NG diety. Especially since with the whole lawful thing, you're supposed to be following orders, you might be able to get away with order of the Nail though, even their Lictor is LG(Edit: nvm that's their Master of Blades) lol!
That said Sarenrae did work with Asmodeus to defeat Rovagug, so screw her if she wants to be a hypocrit =P!
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Yeah, Hellknights don't really do the whole 'redemption and mercy' thing... However, Sarenrae and Asmodeus did kinda work together against Rovagug, so you could find a thread there to start.
Yea, and someone told me that Sarenrae is Asmodeus' daughter, though I couldn't find anything to back that up.
I think Abadar is about as close as you can't get who worshiping a "sort of" goodly deity and still being a hellknight. Strictly speaking Hellknights interact rather frequently with lawful evil outsiders, in manners other then open conflict. Others might have more specifics to add, but this doesn't seem like something Sarenrae or Iomadae would approve of regardless of the quality of your intentions. Also Hellknights as a general rule are LN with a lean slight towards LE. I imagine there could easily be various situations that could arise that might put you at odds with the tenants of a NG diety.
That said Sarenrae did work with Asmodeus to defeat Rovagug, so screw her if she wants to be a hypocrit lol!
Actually, hellknights can worship Iomedae, who is of course lawful good.
Sarenrae does give mercy, but only once, and if the recipient of that second chance throws it away they are toast (probably literally since she is a fire goddess).
A Sarenrite in the Hellknights does not make a huge amount of sense, but if they are a member I would think that they could belong to one of several orders. In the Order of the Pyre, they could specialize in hunting down former converts who are now Apostates, since that is an example of people who would have had their one second chance already. In the Order of the Nail, they could specialize in stamping out "uncivilized" practices that former "savages" have returned to.
Look to the sect of Sarenrae from Katapesh for inspiration.
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Yeah, Hellknights don't really do the whole 'redemption and mercy' thing... However, Sarenrae and Asmodeus did kinda work together against Rovagug, so you could find a thread there to start.Yea, and someone told me that Sarenrae is Asmodeus' daughter, though I couldn't find anything to back that up.
It isn't she's formerly an empyereal lord, that's about as much as they fleshed out her pre-godhood background.
Ragatheal general of the legions of heaven is the son of the Archdevil Dispater if you're looking for some good ol' semi deific daddy issues though.
I am not sure that the two mesh well together.
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Sarenrae witnessed Asmodeus kill Ihys, the primal god of good and her creator, during the prime of the multiverse(cf. Book of the Damned 1: Princes of Darkness). Letting her worshippers play pattycake with the worst criminal in the history of time, even by far association via a society like Hellknights, is not going to fly.
I can't really give you advice, but the aforementioned Ragathiel, Empyreal Lord of Heroes, is a good stand-in for Sarenrae and a decent deity for a Hellknight. Maybe it's time for a retcon?
Order of the Godsclaw would be your order of choice, they've distilled some sort of codex out of the teaching of the 5 lawful deities.
I agree that Sarenrae is rather a-typical god to worship for a hellknight/signifer.
Ruyan.
I understand Rathiel's origin but I still cannot understand why an angel would associate with devils.
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Well they are only an Oracle, not a Cleric. Just because they worship Sarenrae doesn't mean their magic comes from the Dawnflower. It comes from lots of places.
Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals.
You don't pray for spells, you don't have to have a patron deity (might have to for Pathfinder Society), you don't even need a divine focus to cast spells that require a divine focus.
So if your character wishes to bring the ideals of Sarenrae to the Hellknights, go right ahead.
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Order of the Godsclaw would be your order of choice, they've distilled some sort of codex out of the teaching of the 5 lawful deities.
I agree that Sarenrae is rather a-typical god to worship for a hellknight/signifer.Ruyan.
Sarenrae being an atypical god for a hellknight does give lots of potential for roleplay however, and this is mainly a roleplay question. But would the order of the godclaw really work with a non-lawful diety? Sarenrae does consider at least some of the lawful gods as her allies so it might be the best fit as to getting along with fellow hellknights (but then I don't necessarily need to let the hellknights know I worship Sarenrae, in fact worshipping Sarenrae in Cheliax is pretty rare these days). Others have mentioned the Order of the Pyre, and the idea of bringing Sarenrae's holy fire upon those who were given the chance of redemption and turned back to evil does seem interesting - but unfortunately I didn't pick the fire mystery (the character in question could still end up with a flaming scimitar though).
Well they are only an Oracle, not a Cleric. Just because they worship Sarenrae doesn't mean their magic comes from the Dawnflower. It comes from lots of places.
Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals.You don't pray for spells, you don't have to have a patron deity (might have to for Pathfinder Society), you don't even need a divine focus to cast spells that require a divine focus.
So if your character wishes to bring the ideals of Sarenrae to the Hellknights, go right ahead.
How to approach bringing the ideals of Sarenrae to the hellknights is the issue however. Since the hellknights are a lawful institution and letting criminals go for a chance at redemption, or turning them over to the church of Sarenrae to attempt reeducation/brainwashing/redemption isn't exactly lawful.
Well they are only an Oracle, not a Cleric. Just because they worship Sarenrae doesn't mean their magic comes from the Dawnflower. It comes from lots of places.
Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals.You don't pray for spells, you don't have to have a patron deity (might have to for Pathfinder Society), you don't even need a divine focus to cast spells that require a divine focus.
So if your character wishes to bring the ideals of Sarenrae to the Hellknights, go right ahead.
Pretty much this. An Oracle doesn't have a "direct" link with just a single deity like a Cleric normally does. They instead draw upon the power of the deities that share their moral senses. And just because Sarenrae is only an honest deity doesn't mean that she isn't a reasonable deity.
There are multiple stories where angels and demons, good and evil, law and chaos, are to be combined together to stop a common threat. The most prevalent problem lies in how such contact would even be a benefit to one (either) side.
Honestly? If RP is very frequent and upheld within your sessions, this would definitely provide a key roleplaying turn point within the campaign. As an Oracle, a God shouldn't outright deny a character their powers or provide any harm unless it goes completely against their worshipping code or that there is no reason a character should be doing the things they are doing. (You'd think a Deity would know, but if it is truly bothersome, they would say something to you, and you would try to persuade them the reasoning behind your involvement with the Hellknights.)
How to approach bringing the ideals of Sarenrae to the hellknights is the issue however. Since the hellknights are a lawful institution and letting criminals go for a chance at redemption, or turning them over to the church of Sarenrae to attempt reeducation/brainwashing/redemption...
Redemption is a concept of Justice and Righteousness. Being Lawful isn't just following through a set of punishments that aren't derived out of good reason. Sarenrae would know that those who were offered redemption and denied that chance would deserve whatever punishment the other hellknights throw at them.
Another thing is that Hellknights aren't just about "The Law says this" or "The Law dictates that"; they are a separate society, and there are those who don't exactly condone the lawful aspects of Hellknights, and there are those within said society who are corrupt.
Sarenrae is also about giving the benefit of the doubt (which is why she is all gun-ho about Redemption), and a NG Hellknight upholding reasonable ideals (such as the Laws of Hellknights) and enforcing them (against those corrupt Hellknights) isn't as far-fetched or frowned upon as you think it is.
I'm not sure how the Hellknight orders would look upon that member though, especially since the origin of the hellknights while more than likely fabricated as propaganda of house thrune tells of a knight of sarenrae that abandoned his faith to become the first Hellknight.
there are paladins who also have levels of hell knight, one of the orders has a mistress of blades who is a paladin, so a good hellknight isn't unheard of. I'd retcon the diety if it were me thou.
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There's nothing forbidding it, but it definitely sounds like an uphill struggle and isn't an obvious choice!
That being said, Sarenrae is a goddess of honesty and redemption, and seems to get along okay with lawful gods like Iomedae. If anyone would be (perhaps unrealistically) optimistic about their chances of 'changing the system from within' and 'redeeming the hellknights,' it would be a follower of Sarenrae (or perhaps Shelyn...).
For all the 'hell' in the title of the organization, the lawful gods of the Godclaw are weighted towards good and neutral, not evil (Iomedae and Torag for LG, Abadar and Irori for LN and Asmodeus for LE), and there are a fair number of Paladins in the organization, with it being one of the favored classes per the Faction Guide. So the 'but, but, but, it's got *hell* in the title!' isn't really much of an argument.
There's also rationalizations that can be made, such as the alliance-of-convenience of Sarenrae and Asmodeus against Rovagug.
I'd caution against a Paladin or Cleric of Sarenrae, as that might be a bit too much of an uphill struggle, but an Oracle who likes the Dawnflowers tenets shouldn't be a problem, since Oracles don't necessarily get their favorite god, or whichever specific god they *think* they might be getting their powers from, or, for all we know, from gods at all, and Oracles don't have any sort of alignment requirement or code they have to follow to retain their class abilities, making it completely possible to be a 'heretic' who worships Desna as a Great Old One, or Cayden Cailean as a fertility deity, or a rock that she keeps in her pocket and calls Bob.
I know I'm late to answer this question, but The Order of the Scourge is v ery much about fighting corruption and crime. I can still see that fit with Sarenrae. A Sarenite in the Order of the Scourge could be merciful to those who were genuinely seeking to better their lives, but would expect them to also bear the consequences of their crimes. The truly evil and corrupt would get no quarter.