Of those, 2 (Cav and Samurai) can if they can just find some way to expand their mount choices somehow.
The Beast Rider feat (not to be confused with the archetype that has the same name) adds the pteranodon (and a few other non-flying mounts) to the list for Samurai and Cavaliers, but that feat is limited to Half-Orcs and full Orcs.
Also, the Mount class feature notes that the GM can choose to approve any other suitable animal as a Mount. If were GMing the kind of campaign where flight is an absolute necessity, I'd be inclined to throw the Cavalier/Samurai a bone.
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I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how lack of flight is such a devastating problem for fighters period, much less compared to other classes. I mean if I were going to whine about the fighter vs the wizard "I can't fly" would be way, way, way, way, way down on my list of grievances...
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I'm looking at the title of the thread again and I see the problem. The problem isn't the fighter. The problem is understanding what the fighter can do. There is nothing that says the fighter must relegate himself to melee. The title assumes that is all he can do.
There isn't a single creature in the bestiaries or NPCs that a fighter can't deal with (of an appropriate CR).. He may not be able to solo some of them, but that's not really what any class should be able to do.
The game is cooperative and giving the fighter flight instead of the wizard is a good idea because one of them can take out the enemy quickly. Did you know that the wizard can dimension door the fighter who can take a full round action without needing pounce? Did you know that hasting the party can be better than giving the wizard flight?
Every time this discussion comes up, it always comes down to what an individual character assuming they are alone. The game doesn't assume you are alone. It assumes that you go adventuring with several others (3 to 4 others). As someone who trained for combat, I can tell you that a squad (an adventuring party) is greater than the sum of it's parts. During training exercises, every time we had soldiers acting on their own instead of with the group, they failed. Every time we had squad work together, we increased our odds of success greatly. Ask Michael Jordan what it means to play as part of a team. He knows that he's great. He also knows that he is better with a team.
If you want to give fighters the unlimited ability to fly for free, as a swift action, then just houserule it into your game.
Did you know that hasting the party can be better than giving the wizard flight?Did you know there is a personal spell called "overland flight" that lasts hours/level?
Did you know that slow is an even better option than Haste (which aside from the Jump bonuses, doesn't help the fighter kill something he can't reach)?
Overland flight is available at level 11. Is that the baseline we're going to use for comparison? I can work with that. Level 11 is a great level for a fighter.
As for the fighter not being able to reach the enemy, I'm wondering why he can't. A composite longbow (something a level 11 fighter should have) can reach out and touch someone up to 1100 feet away. He doesn't even have to worry about taking a measly -2 to hit until the enemy is 115 feet away. Haste would allow the fighter who took manyshot, rapid shot, and is level 11 a grand total of 6 rounds down range with 4 of them having a pretty good chance of hitting. Which is better now? Slow or Haste?
The problem is that you are completely ignoring the capabilities of the fighter. If you are going to ignore the fact that he can actually use more than just melee weapons, then you will never understand why flight is mostly something enemy needs to escape.
^ It's like being part of the Justice League, except your Wendy or Marvin, not Batman.
I don't understand the complaint about being dependent on equipment and then this analogy. Batman is pretty dependent on his equpment. Why is that a problem for the fighter but not Batman?
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"It's a cooperative effort" is true, but missing one VERY important thing: "It's a cooperative effort between an average of 4 people".
Tell me: Why is the Wizard's attention devoted ENTIRELY to helping the Fighter overcoming problems with what is supposed his specialty? There are at least two other party members (plus animal companions and summons) that the wizard can benefit instead. What makes the Fighter special?
obdurate
adjective1. unmoved by persuasion, pity, or tender feelings; stubborn; unyielding.
2. stubbornly resistant to moral influence; persistently impenitent: an obdurate sinner.
3. See also, obstinate
4. See also, deuxhero
Deuxhero,
Reasonable examples have been provided to refute your claims.
Differing play styles have been given to show your absolutist view is not the only or even a majority one.
Forum friends,
Give it up, folks. Facts and alternatives aren't going to go anywhere with the OP.
Deuxhero, I suggest a game that uses gestalt classes, point-buy, or a single class so that PCs can adequately be built to be optimized in every situation. I think you'll be happier. However, that game is not Pathfinder.
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Yeah, I'm not normally one to say it, but...
Deuxhero, you're wrong. Period. People have shown you examples, made convincing arguments, and yet you refuse to accept it.
The martial classes went for a long, long time without any means of fighting flying enemies, and they played just fine. No balance issues.
You are wrong. /thread
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^ Perhaps you could read the first post on this page?
^^ No they haven't. They just spent 4 pages insisting they either A: spend a third of ANY fight with a flying foe shoveing ~half their expected reward down their mouth while everyone else actually does something B: Insist the Wizard spends his time for no other BUT making the Fighter work despite any number of other things and at least 2 other party members who can also benefit from a buff.
"The Caster-MArtial Disparity god undulates lustily as its chosen priest's mad gibberings fill the so called sane ones ears with confusion and bewilderment.
It's a 5th level spell, not a 6th.Did you know that hasting the party can be better than giving the wizard flight?Did you know there is a personal spell called "overland flight" that lasts hours/level?
Did you know that slow is an even better option than Haste (which aside from the Jump bonuses, doesn't help the fighter kill something he can't reach)?
Overland flight is available at level 11. Is that the baseline we're going to use for comparison? I can work with that. Level 11 is a great level for a fighter.
Sorry, I was assuming that you wanted to do more than just fly with your highest level slot.
^ Perhaps you could read the first post on this page?
^^ No they haven't. They just spent 4 pages insisting they either A: spend a third of ANY fight with a flying foe shoveing ~half their expected reward down their mouth while everyone else actually does something B: Insist the Wizard spends his time for no other BUT making the Fighter work despite any number of other things and at least 2 other party members who can also benefit from a buff C: Attempt something with a 50% chance of success that will only deal a 10th of the enemy's HP in damage (compared to 40%+ you will do without even trying as a dedicated melee fighter) even if it works.
None of these seem like very good ideas, and are something most classes don't require.
Actually points have been made and a build or two posted. Just because you choose to ignore those points (like the fighter not being relegated to melee) does not mean they have not been made.
Here's some fun facts:
1) Every class is dependent upon the WBL. Every single one. Don't believe me? Try to build an uber wizard using only the two bonus spells per level and no magic items. I don't think it can happen. Try it with any class.
2) The fighter is proficient with nearly every weapon in the game. This means melee and ranged.
3) Switching from one weapon to another quickly requires the expenditure of one feat. For a class that has 11 bonus feats, I don't think that's all that big of a deal.
4) Your wizard is rather useless if all he is doing is debuffing. He still needs to take out the enemy. I wonder who can handle that...
5) Hyperbole gets you nowhere. The fighter does not need to spend half their wealth to fight. The fighter does not need the wizard to buff him (although it's certainly welcome). The fighter will hit more than 50% of the time and deal far more than 10% of the enemy's hit points. Oh, and the fighter also can buff if he chooses the right feats/archetypes.
You are stuck on melee. Yes, a fighter that decides to only bring a melee weapon on an adventure is screwed if there is a combatant more than 10 feet away. Of course this is when Darwin steps in and fixes the problem. Maybe you need to look at more options than that for any combat.
Yeah, too bad you don't get bonus slots from high ability scores...
You got that how by 9th level? A bonus 5th level slot requires an Intelligence of 20. It can be done but I don't think it's all that common by level 9. Of course, if you are putting most of you resources into it, then I guess so.
How about this. Why not show us what the uber wizard will look like at level 9 with 20 point buy and appropriate WBL. Make sure you account completely for every spell beyond the two bonus spells to include the costs to find, learn, and scribe them. No GM fiat. You have to pay for them 100%.
I'll consider building a level 9 fighter that doesn't need your wizard.
Let us then see how long your favorite mage lasts without a meat shielding losing hit point damages intended for him instead.
My point is, fighters do more than fight. By engaging in melee (or by standing in the open cursing at a flying oppenent and drawing its attention) they absorb hit point damage and time...which *allows* the mages and everybody else to do their jobs. Providing for hit point loss is probably the single most important thing a fighter does.
When and if people figure that out then they will know how to contribute to their team effort against any foe when playing a fighter.
As for the mage, yes sometimes he has to raise his shield (fighter) over his head to avoid damage from flying monsters. So what?
^ Uh, for a SAD class? 18 is your bare minimum starting Int after racial, you get 2 +1 any ability score at 4 and 8. You get that bonus slot naked, let alone after your +4 headband! A WIzard at 9 without 20 int is, literally, a stupid Wizard
Only if you're minmaxing. Only if you plan on depending on SOD or SOS spells. Neither of which the wizard needs to be effective.
My Wizard started as INT16, and at 13th level (and counting!) he has INT19. No stat bonus items because our GM is cheap. Even if he had one, you have to wear an item for 24 hours to get the bonus slots. Guess what? Sleeping is kind of hard wearing ornate crown like things (this is a flaw in RAW that makes people never take anything off).
^ Uh, for a SAD class? 18 is your bare minimum starting Int after racial, you get 2 +1 any ability score at 4 and 8. You get that bonus slot naked, let alone after your +4 headband! A WIzard at 9 without 20 int is, literally, a stupid Wizard
^^
1: Actually, it's not completely awful. Yes the lack of DC and bonus spells from the headband hurt badly, but you are still a pretty decent combatant.
2: I can't locate the OotS where V explains the difference in proficiency and competency, but... There is a BIG difference between not taking a -4 penalty in a weapon and actually being able to hit consistently with it for decent damage, which a ECL 10 melee Fighter isn't doing with a bow.
3: See 2.
4: But he isn't always debuffing, he just wants to do the debuffing first when enemies are so close to eachother
5: I didn't say half his wealth by level (though it actually is true if you use Wings of Flying), I said half his REWARD. Potion of fly is 750 and the entire party of 4 earns 5450gp from a CR10. Last I checked, 750 is indeed more than half of 1362.5
Bonus: Because the topic is about melee?
I have decided that since you aren't going to actually take the conversation that you started seriously, then you can win this argument. I have a beautiful woman who wants my attention and isn't going to ignore me. Have a great day. Happy gaming. I hope you find solace.
Along with the previous suggestions (ranged attacks, flying mount, magic items, Improved Eldritch Heritage feat, spell cast by a teammate...), a 3-level dip in the Horizon Walker prestige class will give your fighter a built-in ability to fly by level 9.
But I assume this solution will also be invalidated for whatever pseudo-reason...
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This comes up in almost every campaign I've ever run or played in, and the fighter never seems to consider the possibility of a flying foe in his build.
It makes good, common sense for a character with as many feats as a fight gets to spend one feat (Deadly Aim) on the ability to attack from a range. All characters can't always be good at everything, but that one little feat can make you reasonably effective against flyers and a number of other types of enemies.
This is all assuming that your group wizard (or cleric w/ Travel domain) is too stupid or too much of a jerk to prepare Fly.
Fighter can fight just fine, and can do his job just fine.
What you just seem dead on not accepting is that this is a GROUP game.
The fighter is not a 'solo' class, nor has it ever been, that said they are actually still quite viable if you DID want solo play.
The flying creature isn't that much of a problem really, if you can't hit it, then it can't hit you. So where's the issue?
Plenty of solid suggestions here, the only thing that seems to be a problem is that you want the game to fit to your playstyle, rather than your playstyle shift to fit the game.
Why weren't the players smart enough to prepare for the encounter and all the buffs already applied? Why are they NOW spending actions getting ready? Why do you expect a class to compensate from lack of foresight and tactical appreciation on behalf of the player?
Sorry 'offset lazy gameplay' should never be a class feature of any class.
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I'll ask it again, since you ignored it on page 1....
Why is the combat with flying monsters only ever in a giant huge featureless plain with unlimited ceiling??
Have you never been in a dungeon? Have you never been in a cave? Have you never stormed a citadel? Have you never been in tombs? Have you never adventured underground? Are there no trees in this world? Is there nothing to climb (o look, fighter class skill!) to gain altitude?
Why is your flying foe always on a flat featureless wide open plain with an apparently enormous open sky to fly around in??
O...and also, out of curiosity...why does this flying foe NEVER come into combat range? Why does this flying foe NEVER seek to use his numerous melee attacks to do damage? Why do these 50% or greater foes that fly never get ambushed themselves? Why are these foes ALWAYS flying...do they never tire? Do they never sleep? Do they never come down to eat? Do they never land to drink?
O, fie upon the the 50% of creatures/monsters/enemies in all the Paizo books (or more! lest we forget it was AT LEAST 50% that fly) who never tire and never eat or sleep or drink and always live in the great wide open plains and never ever ever ever ever ever ever melee themselves.
Never ever?
Never ever.
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Just a thought...Paizo can save on printing costs by removing all melee stats from the flying monsters, since apparently they never kill anyone by attacking physically themselves.
Maybe they just fly there, out of reach of the fighter and wait for the fighter to die of old age.
I've been playing this game wrong.
Just as Berik and Bomanzz have added; why are these circumstances so incredibly contrived to place the fighter in the worst possible position with the foes completely in the best position, and then why don't the flying foes actually ENGAGE the Fighter?
If the 'foes' are simply flying around off in the greater distance then its not actually an encounter is it?
Once again, the Fighter class (nor any other class) is not designed to compensate for a complete lack of thought on behalf of the player.
one question you have never answered is how often this comes up in your own games, and how much of an impact it has.
..and if it is coming up a lot:
Why haven't you just optimised into Bows.
How are the other melee (Rog/Monk/Barb etc) dealing with this problem?
Why do you choose to engage in such oddball locations?
Because fly is min/level, too short to be applied in anything short of an ambush that "speak in a firm voice" will blow.
So if you are ambushing the flying creature, why didn't you consider this before making the ambush and preparing accordingly? Just drop a net on the creature, or let your Wizard (who should have prepared spells for that ambush) dispel the flight-spell (and every other buff at the same time) of the enemy? Or simply why didn't the wizard bring a silent-rod so he can send you flying without that "Firm voice", if dispelling flight is no option.
If you're just too stupid to play a BSF, don't do it. Play one of those über-super-fancy-flying-classes you love and leave the fighter to someone who actually likes the versatility of ranged AND melee combat.
And when you're purposefully neglecting any ranged combat ability to maximize your melee, then that's your problem, not that of the game, and it even is fairly balanced overall, because for every encounter you excel at, there's one you in which you suck. (going with your assumption of 50% flying enemies, which was already proven wrong earlier).
So answer the following:
1) Why is it the fault of the fighter class, if you are just ignoring half of its abilities with your build? (i.e. ranged combat)
2) Why is it the fault of the fighter class, if you and your teammates are not thinking ahead and preparing for the situation?
3) Why is it the fault of the fighter class, if your DM is a <isert bad word of your choice here> and always throws flying enemies in an open field at you, that appear out of thin air, so you don't see them coming?