Here are the rules. If you have Ultimate Equipment, no playing.
What do you think the price of this item is? Can you explain why you think it's that price?
Each of these fingerless worked
leather gloves look as though they
have seen heavy use, and often bear
the stains or scent of grass or wet mud.
On command, the wearer can use the
gloves to see and hear though solid
material no more than 15 feet thick by placing both hands on
that material. The gloves can be used for 10 rounds each day.
The rounds need not be consecutive.
5,400 GP.
Clairaudience - Clairvoyance Sorcerer/Wizard 3
Spell Level 3 * Caster Level 5 * 1,800 = 27,000 / 5 = 5,400 GP.
Why divide by 5? Because, I figure it's a once per day item price, but it can be used for 10 rounds per day. Kind of like Boots of Speed.
My best guess.
Hm...a ring of X-ray vision costs 25,000 gp, so I'll guess something like 8,000 gp.
Isengard bids 5.
I'm with hogarth. My gut says somewhere in the ball park of 8,000 gp, on the basis that as a player that would be what I would think they were worth.
Sooo... update Cheapy? Who's closest?
1cp (There's always one who bids $1)
Hmm, that ones a bit more difficult deuxhero, because there are two choices. The spell Protective Penumbra or the Rare Cantrip Penumbra (scroll down a little).
Because it's specifically for Light Sensitivity or Light Blidness (like the Cantrip Penumbra), I'm going to guess that spell.
So: Spell Level .5 * Caster Level 1 * 2,000 * 1.5 = (.5 * 1) * (2,000 * 1.5) = .5 * 3,000 = 1,500 GP.
However, if Protective Penumbra was used it's SL 2 * CL 3 * 2,000 * 1.5 = 6 * 3,000 = 18,000 GP.
I'm going to go with 1,500 GP and the Cantrip Penumbra instead of the spell Protective Penumbra.
Eh, I'm not sure that would really apply. I don't think it's priced as a +1 to hit and +1 Perception item. But I don't know what it's price is, but I'll let others comment instead of asking for it to be revealed.
I got a copy of UE and happened to see the item in the OP.
I lost the game. :/
You rat bastard. GRR.
[Edit] It occurred to me, this could be seen as offensive by people on the board. So for those that don't know about The Game, here is a link: Lose The Game. My post is entirely a joke and not meant to insult anyone.
I got a copy of UE and happened to see the item in the OP.
I lost the game. :/
Maybe you could put the price in a spoiler block...
The price to see through 15 ft is 2k! Congrats to whoever one; cheapy be sleepy so I can't check. Zzzzz
So can someone with UE post the full item entry? I'd like to study it to see how they accomplished that item.
That sounds a bit too cheap for me (look through doors 10 times a day?), but I'd rather have an item err on the side of too cheap (in which case players will actually keep and use the item) rather than too expensive (in which case it usually ends up getting sold).
gloves oF reConnaissanCe
prICe
2,000 gp
AurA faint divination Cl 3rd WeIght —
Each of these fingerless worked
leather gloves look as though they
have seen heavy use, and often bear
the stains or scent of grass or wet mud.
On command, the wearer can use the
gloves to see and hear though solid
material no more than 15 feet thick by placing both hands on
that material. The gloves can be used for 10 rounds each day.
The rounds need not be consecutive.
ConstruCtIon requIrements Cost 1,000 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, clairaudience/clairvoyance
Not so sleepy anymore.
Why the hell is it caster level third? With that, I can see how they came up with a 2,000 gp cost.
Spell Level 2 * Caster Level * 1,800 = 10,800 / 5 = 2,160 rounded to 2,000
Problem is, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is a 3rd level spell, not a 3rd level caster. I think this is a mistake and needs Errata. I think 5,400 (or even 5,000) is pretty fair for the ability to know what's on the other side of a door before opening it.
It reminds me of the Knowledge domains 6th level power. I have a player with a Cleric/Paladin with this domain and he uses it precisely for the purpose of looking through doors in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game.
I love that class feature but agree it's too cheap. (Yea, yea. Irony.)
Why the hell is it caster level third? With that, I can see how they came up with a 2,000 gp cost.
Spell Level 2 * Caster Level * 1,800 = 10,800 / 5 = 2,160 rounded to 2,000
Problem is, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is a 3rd level spell, not a 3rd level caster. I think this is a mistake and needs Errata. I think 5,400 (or even 5,000) is pretty fair for the ability to know what's on the other side of a door before opening it.
It reminds me of the Knowledge domains 6th level power. I have a player with a Cleric/Paladin with this domain and he uses it precisely for the purpose of looking through doors in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game.
Because caster level is not a requirement, it only affects Dispel, etc.
So you can price things however you want the devs are saying with the item.
You can lower your caster level to make an item. Just like a level 20 Bard(Magician) making a Wand of Magic Missile with CL 1. It is cheap and effectively give em 50 full castings of a CL 20 castings of Magic Missile...
For those about to comment on Azaelas' post, the only reason that works is because of the Magician's ability to do so. For most, it'll just be a CL1 wand.
For those about to comment on Azaelas' post, the only reason that works is because of the Magician's ability to do so. For most, it'll just be a CL1 wand.
Sorry forgot to mention wand mastery. Though a few other classes/archetypes/prestige classes can do it as well.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Oh yes, I am well aware of being able to lower your level. However....
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is a 3rd level spell regardless who casts it.
School divination (scrying); Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
A Bard gains 3rd level spells at level 7, a Sorcerer gains 3rd level spells at level 6, a Witch gains 3rd level spells at level 5 and a Wizard gains 3rd level spells at level 5.
Therefore, the minimum caster level of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is level 5 as a 3rd level spell. That means Gloves of Reconnaissance are breaking/ignoring the Magic Item Creation rules, and therefore, need an Errata.
Also, Cheapy, Wizards can do the same thing, but both sooner and later than Bards thanks to Staff-Like Wand except it's better since they get to use their Intelligence and Caster level right from the get go, and if you have any feats (like Spell Focus or Spell Perfection) that increase the DC, they also apply with the Wand.
Staff-Like Wand is how you really **** up a GMs day if you've got a total Enervation Wizard build going on. Mix in Preferred Spell, Staff-Like Wand, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Preferred Spell and other things, and you're looking at well over 50 castings of Enervation in a day.
That is open to interpretation though. As most spella can be cast a CL 1 only they might not be very effective.
Right, but he was referring to bards :)
Since this thread basically ran its course already, I don't feel bad about derailing it. But regarding the enervation thing, those feats won't help with the enervation wands :)
I guess we could make this into a pricing thread where people can request a price of an item.
Right, but he was referring to bards :)
Since this thread basically ran its course already, I don't feel bad about derailing it. But regarding the enervation thing, those feats won't help with the enervation wands :)
Why not?
Prerequisite: You must be at least an 11th-level Wizard and must have the Craft Staff feat to select this discovery.
Benefit: Similar to using a magic staff, you use your own Intelligence score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against spells you cast from a wand, and you can use your caster level when activating the power of a wand if it’s higher than the caster level of the wand.
Choose a school of magic. Any spells you cast of that school are more difficult to resist.
Benefit: Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against spells from the school of magic you select.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new school of magic.
I mentioned Preferred Spell twice on accident, but I was meaning Spell Perfection. I only mentioned Preferred Spell at all in case you need to a metamagic Enervation for some reason.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
So if a character had Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Perfection and Staff-Like Wand, he could craft the lowest level Enervation wand possible, and cast it using his actual caster level, with his actual ability score and the DC of the spell would include the +4 from the Feats he has.
As a side not, while it's not 'legal' I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to allow Spell Penetration to apply as well.
I didn't think feats like that work with staves...
Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.
Actually, Staves work exactly like that. If you have a Staff of Enervation and you have Spell Focus for enervation, then the Spell Focus feat also applies to the Enervation as cast from the Staff. Same with Enervation as cast from a Staff-Like Wand.
OK then...
EDIT: the thing I think they are saying is it isn't you casting the spell it is the Staff/Wand/Scroll/etcetera that is casting it. You are just telling it to cast.
Correct, a Wand or Staff is nothing more than a magical battery. It has a per-determined amount of magical energy being stored inside. Unlike things like a Pearl of Power or Ring of Wizardry, you have a very small selection of choices you can expend that magical energy with.
However, a Staff is unique in that it automatically lets you adjust the effect of the energy expended based off your own caster level, your own ability scores, and any relevant feats you have selected.
Staff-Like Wand is an Arcane Discovery unique to Wizards only that allows them to accomplish the same ability as the Staff. Other classes have similar abilities, like the Magician Bard, but they don't work quite the same. For instance, the Magician can't use his own caster level, until 16th level, nor can he apply relevant feats. But the Wizard can.
For just about anyone else, a First level Wand is a First level Wand, but in the hands of a Wizard with Staff-Like Wand, that First level Wand is more powerful than in the hands of nearly everyone else.
Consider this, a Wizard with maxed UMD and Staff-Like Wand can take that Caster Level 1 Wand of Cure Light Wounds and amp it up to cast it at his own caster level. Since Cure Light Wounds maxes out at +5 a lot of his caster level is wasted. But give him a Caster Level 7th Wand of Cure Critical, and he gets +13 (the minimum level to take Staff-Like Wand) where as everyone else gets +7.
If a Wizard in the party has Staff-Like Wand and a high UMD, he should be the only one ever using Wands if it can be helped as all Wands will function better in his hands than just about everyone else.
This is one of those GM fiat moments do to interpretation... as most feats only effect spells you cast not spells cast by Magic items. Though I know in 3.x you had to take a feat to have feats effect spells cast through staves. Though most GMs ignored that and let it apply...
Also isn't level 11 the minimum level to take Staff-Like Wands?
Yes, normally, a feat only affects spells you cast. There is an exception to nearly every rule though. Staves are an exception, and Staff-Like Wand is a feat that alters all other feats as well.
For instance: Normally, you provoke an Attack of Opportunity when you try to grapple someone, but if you take Improve Grapple, you are now the exception.
Feats change how rules work. You can't more, attack and move in Pathfinder. Unless you take Spring Attack. Why? Because Spring Attack if a feat that changes the rules.
Rules are never absolute, they can always have exceptions and those exceptions often come from Feats. There is no GM fiat moments in this. Staves are explicitly called out as being able to use Feats to alter the DCs of the spells cast from the Staff. This isn't murky wording, unclear sentence structure or bad verbiage. If you have a feat that alters the DC of a spell, and such spell is on a Staff, and you use the spell from the Staff, then that spell is altered by the Feat.
As for the requirements, Staff-Like Wand requires a Wizard level 11, but also Craft Staff, which can't be taken until 11th level caster. It's for those odd cases where a GM allows higher than 20 level characters. An 11th level Cleric could take Craft Staff, but only an 11th level Wizard can take Staff-Like Wand. The earliest you can get Staff-Like Wand is 13th level as that is when you get the next Feat slot.
Isn't there a Wizard archetype that grants Craft Staff for free with out prerequisites.
The GM fiat is the F.A.Q. in relation. Personally I agree with you.
Would I ever use it?: No, I wouldn't.
Why: because I have had it used in my games to reek havoc and ruin the game for the other players. I have seen it used as a GM. I Also refuse to risk ruining my party member's fun.
What kind of gamer am I?: I have gone so far as to forgo the character I wanted to play so that one of my party members could play the character she wanted to and not suffer.
Y'know, after I made that post linking to the FAQ, I thought "Huh, I wonder if there is any text in the feats or staves section that contradicts that. Probably not, so I won't check!" and went on my merry way.
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Am I misreading something? I don't see the point in messing with the save DC of enervation as it doesn't allow a save anyway.
Tels, you could use some shuffling around of Wizard with prestige classes that continue spellcasting to get a caster level of 11 before you get a wizard level of 11. You could arrange it to get Craft Staff with your Wizard 10 bonus feat and then take the staff/wand discovery next level. I'm not sure this could be done before character level 12 though, and it would require a very specific build just to get it one level early.
Am I misreading something? I don't see the point in messing with the save DC of enervation as it doesn't allow a save anyway.
Tels, you could use some shuffling around of Wizard with prestige classes that continue spellcasting to get a caster level of 11 before you get a wizard level of 11. You could arrange it to get Craft Staff with your Wizard 10 bonus feat and then take the staff/wand discovery next level. I'm not sure this could be done before character level 12 though, and it would require a very specific build just to get it one level early.
If memory serves there is an archetype that gets Craft Staves earlier and gets it without prerequisites.
Am I misreading something? I don't see the point in messing with the save DC of enervation as it doesn't allow a save anyway.
Tels, you could use some shuffling around of Wizard with prestige classes that continue spellcasting to get a caster level of 11 before you get a wizard level of 11. You could arrange it to get Craft Staff with your Wizard 10 bonus feat and then take the staff/wand discovery next level. I'm not sure this could be done before character level 12 though, and it would require a very specific build just to get it one level early.
I was using Enervation as an example of what you could put on a Wand. I know it doesn't have a DC, but there are other spells that do.
Take a Wand of Slow, for example. Per RAW, any Magic Item created uses the minimum DC for the spell cast. So a 3rd level Wand of Slow as created by a Wizard with 36 Int, has a DC of 14 (spell level 3, minimum ability score 13 is +1). But with Staff-Like Wand, that DC bumps up to 26. If you've got Spell Focus - Evocation then the DC is 27, Greater bumps it to 28, and if you've got Spell Perfection, it's 30.
Pretty good for a 3rd level Wand I'd say.