I will be starting a new AP (Skull & Shackles) in a few months and have started introducing character options to my players in our last session, so that they might start thinking about their next character.
My players were especially excited about the ARG races being playable. In fact they were really excited about them, even making me fear that they'd all choose one of those races. That's something I don't want, preferring an odd race to be "something special" to roleplay. So I started thinking about ways of allowing those races while not encouraging all my players to take one, and preserving that "special feel" an uncommon race is supposed to convey.
Here are the options I thought about:
1) Allow only X non-core races in the group. That's an easy one of course, but I fear it might leave some players dissatisfied.
2) Core races get 20 pt.-buy, Non-core races get 15 pt.-buy. Here comes the houserule part: choosing that option would allow every player to make a decision for himself regardless of the group, and be happier with it.
I'm looking for input on option #2: is it a good or a bad idea? What would you do, while keeping the intention described above?
Thanks for your answer Benly, I appreciate your input.
In fact, the problem is not on a game balance level for me, it's more about flavour, since I just want to avoid the PC's group being a circus/freak show of weird races like I've seen/experienced in some games.
But you make a good point, the ability point buy mechanics is probably too sensitive. I do like your "trait" idea, which in a way goes exactly the same way as how Tiefling were handled in the Council of Thieves AP.
Maybe another solution would be to have my players write a background story for their characters, so that they'd really start feeling if a race would be the right choice or not.
I went with option 1 and my players have been fine with it. Only one non-Core race is allowed. In my next campaign I am strongly considering imposing an "only one non-Human" rule, but that has more to do with the adventure (which begins in an isolated human village) than any balance issues.
Why not make it to where each race can be represented X number of times?
Heck, I make my players write the character's background and have to approve it before they can play it. My Skull & Shackles inspired campaign currently has 2 Gillmen simply because they had a good background. Other races include a kitsune, a samsaran, a stryx/strix(?), and a kobold. Their background is they are a small-time pirate crew formed from social outcasts.
It has been better than the other group running in the same campaign made up of core races with a single non-core race(aasimar cleric).
Avoid using option 1 as it is now. Put the restrictions on the races themselves based on their rarity in the campaign. Say Advanced races have an availability of 2 each while Rare races have an availability of 1 each. Some exceptions apply.
Xan_Ning has an interesting thought...
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This makes me curious, which are the playable races that people feel are much stronger than the core race?
I feel Aasimars and Tieflings are too good, maybe drows too (drow nobles are obviously too powerful). Strix too, since they can fly, which is a huge advantage, (although not so much for casters)
Maybe if Aasimar/Tieflings were not Outsider(Native), which makes them immune to lots of stuff, had no energy resistance, and in the Aasimar's case, only one attribute bonus (either only Wis or only Cha) they'd be reasonably balanced.
Believe it or not they are actually weaker than most. The aasimar only gain a bonus to mental stats no physical stats. Tieflings are only really powerful as an Abyssal and Infernal. Strix might fly. But that isn't valuable in say a dungeon crawl.
Why do you think Drow are powerful?
At higher levels any resistances they have are barely going to do anything. Heck, last night I seen a Aasimar Cleric get one shotted by a dragon that was an Easy challenge for their party level. Simply because it rolled Max damage.
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This makes me curious, which are the playable races that people feel are much stronger than the core race?
I feel Aasimars and Tieflings are too good, maybe drows too (drow nobles are obviously too powerful). Strix too, since they can fly, which is a huge advantage, (although not so much for casters)
Maybe if Aasimar/Tieflings were not Outsider(Native), which makes them immune to lots of stuff, had no energy resistance, and in the Aasimar's case, only one attribute bonus (either only Wis or only Cha) they'd be reasonably balanced.
I had a conversation on another page about this, and I think it just feels like those races are overpowered. The reality is that most of their abilities are fairly situational, or limited in some way. I find that a human paladin will actually outperform an Aasimar paladin in many situations, and while a Tiefling rogue might outperform a halfing rogue once a day, the halfling will perform more consistently throughout.
Drow are also balanced (with the base drow presented in the ARG). Remember, spell resistance is more likely to hinder an ally's healing spells than it is to stop an enemy's attack spells in most situations.
I'm not sure about normal drows, they may or may not be better than other races. I'm willing to accept either answer. If they are better, it's not by much.
Drow Nobles, on the other hand, get a bazillion attribute points.
Aasimar/Tieflings still feel slightly too good for my tastes. Being immune to Charm Person, Hold Person and other humanoid-only spells is very good. And Aasimars break the rule of having +2 net gain on attributes, like core races.
I'd have no problem with them if they were humanoid instead of outsiders.
Strix are still a bit too good IMO, flight is much more often than not, a great advantage. Personally, I'd not feel comfortable GMing for a group where one player can fly at will from 1st level while the others must walk.
Isn't that a 15th level sorcerer bloodline power?
I don't feel any of these races is OMGWTFBBQ overpowered. I don't think any of them would break the game or really disrupt balance. But I do think they might be slightly better than core races.
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Flight is pretty powerful, but it also limits your options at 1st level. You have to make a DC 15 skill any round you want to make a full attack, and the Strix have a net 0 stat adjustment. Which is not to say you can't make a solid strix character, but you've got a pretty narrow set of options available at starting levels of play.
I'll be honest, the only time I've gone with an Aasimar or tiefling over a core race for a character, it's been when I was making a character in conjunction with one of the Blood of... splat books. Which, in all fairness, do give the races a pretty big bump if you're not also using the racial splat book for the core race you're comparing it too. I know my beastbrood sorcerer with the effective CHA of 25 at first level was a bit much... But a core race usng the Core Rulebook and ARG stacks up pretty nice against most other races using the same material (svirfneblin being the notable exception). I also remember back in the days of 3.x, a physical stat was actually more highly valued than a mental stat (thus your half-orcs with +2 STR, -2 INT, -2 CHA) which does bear true a little bit even in PF, at least at low levels.
I think the real game-breaker in the ARG is the idea that a 15 point race build will be balanced to most any other race. Being able to build a race designed specifically to mechanically complement your class build is a huge advantage. A net +2 stat spread may theoretically be balanced, but if you're picking and choosing your racial bonuses and dump stat to exactly complement your idea, it's a much bigger boost than having to try and match a pre-built race to your class design.
Ah, don't get me started on the Race Builder. It's the one thing in the book I really don't like.
ARG is a great book. But the Race Builder is disappointing to say the least. But I digress.
You're right about each race's available options. I was focusing more on their racial traits, and forgot things like racial feats and favored class options. Right now, humans probably make the best sorcerers and oracles, and half-elves make great Summoners, in both cases it happens thanks to their favored class bonus.
Also, humans do have access to all other races' exclusive feats and spells, thanks to Racial Heritage (with this, humans can get claws, tails, scent, low-light vision, darkvision and celestial animal companions!)
But I still don't agree on Stryx and their balance. The lower attribute net gain is not that bad, specially since the -2 goes to Charisma, which happens to be the (unfortunately) least used attribute anyway, (not even sorcerers need it anymore) and the +2 goes to Dex, which is the most overloaded attribute in the game.
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Strix are really good at one thing: they make fantastic scout-archers. They are better at that one thing than anyone else is, for the most part, but I don't think they're better at it than other races are at the things those races are good at.
Agreed. Plus, as I noted earlier, flight at low levels requires a lot of skill checks to successfully perform most actions while airborne. A first level strix has a 30% chance or greater of not even being able to take a full attack while airborne if he fails his fly check to hover. And the airborne guy makes a great target for archers :D
To be fair though, 1st level flight can let you slip past a few obstacles that would be fairly difficult for non-flying low level characters. Functionally, I think this probably just leaves you waiting alone on the far side of the ravine while your friends catch up, but it is what it is.
Drow nobles are more for rare NPCs not player characters.
Strix flight is an iffy. If in wilderness or wide open caverns yes it can be handy, but most adventures take place primarily in a tight spaced dungeon/building.
The race builder is meant for GMs NOT players. If a GM allows a player to build a race then that is their own fault for Either allowing it or not putting restrictions on the traits. Honestly I like the race builder as it has nearly everything a GM needs to make special races for their Homebrewed setting.
Personally 15 and under doesn't result in that big of a power jump. 16+ on the other hand... it depends on the traits taken. Such as the Troll Player Race a guy was making. Yes he was a player but he wasn't looking to powergame. He wanted a unique troll-based race. In the end it was a 16 point build (23 if just GM let him take large) but had Vulnerability to both fire and acid the two most commonly used energy types across all levels in my experience.
The races aren't the problem it is the player.
Strix make one of the best Ranged Fighters but they really suffer against another ranged Fighter. They are naturally going to be sinking a skill rank every level into fly. That way they don't plummet to the ground every time they take a ranged hit. They are going to be lightly armored. And so on. In a party that meshes well the Strix will be powerful. But so can any other race.
If you wanna nerf their flight. Make the Wing-clipped trait mandatory.
Yeha, it's a DC 15 to hover and full attack... But at low levels, there is not much difference between a standard action attack and a full attack (well, except for monks). And nothing stops a stryx from simply landing on top of a really hatd-to-climb building and keep shooting from there.
Again, I don't think they are OMGWTFBBQ game-breaking bastions of brokeness. I just think at-will flight for a slightly lower attribute bonus count is a very, very good deal.
Depends on whether you have enough freedom of movement to use it. In a dungeon it is nearly worthless. And landing is only marginally safer than flying when it comes to ranged attacks.
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I was toying around with giving the players a total of 25 (maybe 30) points to spend on a race and stats. If a player wanted a lower cost race they would have more to spend on stats, and vice versa.
That sounds like a fantastic idea! So basically it would mean (for a 30-pt buy for race + abilities) that a kobold character would in fact get 25 pts to buy his abilities, whereas an Aasimar would only get 15 pts.
@Thanis: I'll probably do that. One or two non-core races for a group of five doesn't sound too bad.
Anyway, thanks for everybody' contribution so far.
Just add a cost to playing a 'restricted' race. I do this with the 'rare' races of my game, such as 10 character points to play a construct race (worth about 17 RP under the race building system).
For the campaign I'm preparing for, the guy who is GMing this one was worried about the same thing. So he gave us this:
-Custom race builder races get a -5 ability point buy (so a 20 instead of 25)
-Custom and non-core characters get 3 traits
-Core races get 6 traits and 1 extra starting/maximum Hero Point.
Of course we'd all been drooling over the race builder so most of us made custom races anyway (we were in the middle of a campaign when the ARP came out). Still, it seems like a good way to help encourage more core races. You could also limit the number non-core races if you want. Maybe give non-core races a -1 or -2 to point-buy rather than a full -5.
Honestly, I don't see Aasimar as a problem especially with scion of humanity making them act like humanoids. Teflings...meh...the resistances are only minor, darkvision has been done with other core races, and darkness isn't all that useful in the fact that just as it shuts down enemies it can shut down allies as well. All things considered their are simply not that many abilities either have that really bother me as far as being used in play (really true of almost all the races in the ARG). Also, I have always felt that the games was the players to control while I as a DM simply facilitate their fun. So, if they want to have their party look like a zoo then that is what they look like and my game changes accordingly.
To the OP, my personal preference if I were in the game would be to simply have core only races. Number 2 seems like too much of a restriction, and personally, would be too obvious a message to me as to what you wanted me to do. I would rather have you give me an up front "no" on non-core races instead of letting something in you'll only worry about throughout the game.
The Race Builder ain't bad at all if your making races flavorful and not intentionally game breaking. Any race under 20 RP is going to be okay to start out at lvl 1 just fine. When I DM I allow all these:
Dwarves
Elves
Gnomes
Half-elves
Halflings
Half-orcs
Humans
Aasimars
Catfolk
Dhampir
Drow (No nobles though)
Fetchlings
Goblins
Hobgoblins
Ifrits
Kobolds
Orcs
Oreads
Ratfolk (I do houserule thier swarming to be 'allies' instead of just other Ratfolk though)
Sylphs
Tengus (In my Golarion the West they are called Kenkus, East is Tengus, and the language choice reads as such. I.E. Tengu can't read or write Kenku & vice versa unless they learn it, which is otherwise fine.)
Tieflings
Undines*
Changelings
Duergar
Gripplis*
Kitsune
Nagaji
Samsarans
Strix
Sulis
Svirfneblin
Vanaras
Vishkanyas
Wayangs
Adamant Entertainment:
Half-Ogre
From ARG:
Gathlain
Gnoll
Kasatha
Lizardfolk
Wyrwood
Wyvaran
The only two I cut are Gillmen and Merfolk because of thier water dependence, makes them hard to have in most campaigns. If the campaign is all or mostly in water I could be persuaded with cookies. Undines kinda fit here too but they won't die if they aren't in water.
I'm working on making a few new races of my own as well, and keeping them under 20 RP is my guideline.
Meh it depends on how the 20 RP is spent. I don't feel like you need to tweak down the Aasimar and others, thier resistance isn't that big for example. And some concepts are going to eat up rp without giving big advantages.
Here are some of my customs that I think are no more powerful or weaker then a Core race
Unimar - Humanoid unicorn, made to be intermediary between good nature deities and civilization
They are 13 RP
Low-light Vision
Medium
Normal Speed
+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis
Standard Language thier auto being common and sylvan
+2 dodge in forest terrian
Fleet Footed
Sprinter
Lightbringer
Spell like Ability (greater)
1/day Magic Circle against Evil
Gore 1d6
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Ursun 19 RP (inspired by the Ursoi) - Large and resembling polar and grizzly bears depending on environment.
Large
Normal Speed
Specialized
(The total is +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha)
Xenophobic
racial language: Ursun
can learn: common, Giant
Nat Armor +1
Ancient Enemy Ogres (Flavor makes them racial enemies and competitors)
Bite 1d3
Claws 1d6
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Dragonborn 17 RP
Dragon type
Darkvision
low light vision
immune to magical sleep & paralysis effects
Medium
Normal Speed
Standard
+2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Dex
Linguist
Common, Draconic
Ancient Foe vs. Dragons
Breath Weapon (I allow the pick between acid,cold,electricity, or fire at 1 lvl, and can't change.
Most of what I created that I haven't listed runs between 8 and 17 RP.
The Dragonborn and Ursun being high on the list, but they don't usurp any core races really.
I see no reason why 20 rp is too OP.
The 20 RP Wyrwood for example is a good example as well.
Correction: specialized: pick mental or physical. Two ability scores of that type get +2 with one score of the other type getting a -2.
Azaelas I'm including the +2 Str, and -2 Dex from large size.
Wow I really missed the large size... though I tend to not use large size on a PC race.
P.S.: the Correction was to my statement of specialized being wrong... I was actually askinhabitants where the other bonuses came from... my stupid phone cleared the post and I couldn't fix it in time
No worries. I don't see large size as a major advantage for a pc. It's got some significant drawbacks. (items cost more, and thier easier to hit.) So I think that balances the Str boost. The point being neither my custom Dragonborn or the Ursun are gamewise more powerful then an elf, dwarf or human.
I have always found the opposite. No amount of balancing will work for large size at early levels.
The reason is a single one:
10 ft. reach.
Large sized races cause way to many problems in parties. And Umbral Reaver is right reach is powerful... though if memory serves reach must be purchased in the race builder.
I have always found the opposite. No amount of balancing will work for large size at early levels.
The reason is a single one:
10 ft. reach.
And the weight of their Gears increase faster than their carrying capacities.
My first post-ARG campaign is kind of a zoo here (gnoll, catfolk, ratfolk, 2 kobolds, and a kitsune). I figure it's nice to get it out of everyone's system, but for the next game I run I'm just going to work out any non-core races that may be common to the area up front, and otherwise shut the book, with the possible exception of allowing a token unusual-race character if well rationalized.
But yeah, that's strictly a world-building issue, not a question of balance, which is best handled by just requiring final approval and using good judgement.
I thought my friends upcoming campaign was bad...
I don't see anything wrong at all with Googleeshng's pcs.
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My current plan is my home games is to allow a few races that are beyond the 7 core that are considered common in my world (about 6 beyond standard) and allow them to "unlock" other races as they run into them. This way I don't end up with a zoo that doesn't match the core population of my world and we have to find an explanation for on the spot. That being said if a player comes up to me and gives me one hell of a pitch I'm willing let something odd in that I've already gotten a place for. This way I can show my players what these races are like in the world at my table and then from there they can craft their characters off the cultures I've presented for them instead of building something really out their and then having to find a place to fit it in by next game.
I don't see anything wrong at all with Googleeshng's pcs.
Oh nothing is wrong it is just... overload of non-core races... though if the characters are well built then that will be a wonderful and unique party... I still love Da'ath's(I believe that is their name) all homebrew races campaign... it is something that I wish was more common.
Well everytime I read a 'playable' at 1st lvl race, I start working them into the world to where they are just as prevalent as the core races. I have a notebook full of where every common,featured, and uncommon race can be found. And how they can be pcs. For example the Kingmaker campaign I'm DMing, has a Kitsune Gunslinger/Wizard, Kitsune Rogue, Vanara Paladin, and a Tiefling Summoner.
And I have two players that come in every now and then that are Elf Ranger, and a Half Orc Monk who focuses primarily on grappling.
I was toying around with giving the players a total of 25 (maybe 30) points to spend on a race and stats. If a player wanted a lower cost race they would have more to spend on stats, and vice versa.That sounds like a fantastic idea! So basically it would mean (for a 30-pt buy for race + abilities) that a kobold character would in fact get 25 pts to buy his abilities, whereas an Aasimar would only get 15 pts.
@Thanis: I'll probably do that. One or two non-core races for a group of five doesn't sound too bad.
Anyway, thanks for everybody' contribution so far.
What happens if they all want to play an ARG race? How do you choose which one gets to play one?
What happens if they all want to play an ARG race? How do you choose which one gets to play one?I was toying around with giving the players a total of 25 (maybe 30) points to spend on a race and stats. If a player wanted a lower cost race they would have more to spend on stats, and vice versa.That sounds like a fantastic idea! So basically it would mean (for a 30-pt buy for race + abilities) that a kobold character would in fact get 25 pts to buy his abilities, whereas an Aasimar would only get 15 pts.
@Thanis: I'll probably do that. One or two non-core races for a group of five doesn't sound too bad.
Anyway, thanks for everybody' contribution so far.
Then, going by that post, they would all have lower ability scores. Though 10 points seems harsh. I prefer the idea of bribing with traits.
It is kind of awkward when the PCs are a mutant freak-show of obscure, rare races, and, while Race Points are nowhere NEAR balanced and the way you spend them is just as important as how many you have, the core races do TEND to be slightly weaker (or perhaps just less interesting) than the advanced ones. Or perhaps it's more a matter of the advanced races being tailored to more specific roles while the core ones are more multipurpose. As such, there is usually an uncommon race that fits what you want better. The race may not be more powerful in general, but it is in a specific role.
Either way, I like the idea of giving the core races a little something extra to help encourage players to use them, while still allowing advanced ones. Something small, like extra traits and/or a few extra points for point-buy.
My current plan is my home games is to allow a few races that are beyond the 7 core that are considered common in my world (about 6 beyond standard) and allow them to "unlock" other races as they run into them. This way I don't end up with a zoo that doesn't match the core population of my world and we have to find an explanation for on the spot. That being said if a player comes up to me and gives me one hell of a pitch I'm willing let something odd in that I've already gotten a place for. This way I can show my players what these races are like in the world at my table and then from there they can craft their characters off the cultures I've presented for them instead of building something really out their and then having to find a place to fit it in by next game.
"Mad Scientist(s) or (insert spellcasting class name here) did it." ?
My current plan is my home games is to allow a few races that are beyond the 7 core that are considered common in my world (about 6 beyond standard) and allow them to "unlock" other races as they run into them. This way I don't end up with a zoo that doesn't match the core population of my world and we have to find an explanation for on the spot. That being said if a player comes up to me and gives me one hell of a pitch I'm willing let something odd in that I've already gotten a place for. This way I can show my players what these races are like in the world at my table and then from there they can craft their characters off the cultures I've presented for them instead of building something really out their and then having to find a place to fit it in by next game."Mad Scientist(s) or (insert spellcasting class name here) did it." ?
That is actually the background for one of my races...
They are called Chimeryn... think of the chimeras from Full Metal Alchemist...
My current plan is my home games is to allow a few races that are beyond the 7 core that are considered common in my world (about 6 beyond standard) and allow them to "unlock" other races as they run into them. This way I don't end up with a zoo that doesn't match the core population of my world and we have to find an explanation for on the spot. That being said if a player comes up to me and gives me one hell of a pitch I'm willing let something odd in that I've already gotten a place for. This way I can show my players what these races are like in the world at my table and then from there they can craft their characters off the cultures I've presented for them instead of building something really out their and then having to find a place to fit it in by next game."Mad Scientist(s) or (insert spellcasting class name here) did it." ?That is actually the background for one of my races...
They are called Chimeryn... think of the chimeras from Full Metal Alchemist...
D8
Poor Nina...
I forgot all about Nina... no wonders my FMA fangirl player called my a Heartless Bastard...
I had a Dog Chimeryn named Ny'na in the town they are in... she even got killed in a similar manner... man I feel cruel...
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Speaking of all homebrew race Party...That's what my group is doing currently, not a single core-race and I love it.
I blame 3.5 books; savage species,cityscape and a dragon magazine for introducing me to the idea of monster campaigns and monster cities which the inhabitants just live their lives in a cosmopolitan society.
Another honorable mention would be Clive Barkers book called Cabal.
I've noted that ever since finishing the homebrew races for my world my players have been more and more eager to get away from playing the "base six" of human, elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, and orc. Which is perfectly fine by me.
Im currently working on my races as we speak, few of them aren't actually homebrew. However im changing the flavour and mechanics behind the races some examples are the hobgoblins and duergar.
Also I would love to see your homebrewed Races Orthos.
I'll post a few when I get home. =)
Awesome.
I used Option 2 (15 point-buy for non-core races) for my Slumbering Tsar campaign - got one non-core cohort and one non-core PC out of six, and no complaints.
Most campaigns I use Option 0 (no non-core at all).