Hey all, I'm building a stonelord paladin (dwarf, obviously). I'm looking for some help with build ideas, particularly feats. I am not looking to minmax, just to be sure that I'm going to be viable the whole time. There are several things to consider for my build.
First, I want to be tough as nails. Stoneborn paladin already guarantees this with DR, fortification, and NA bonuses. I don't think I'll need much in the way of feats for that.
Second, offensive abilities. I'm not sure if I'll be going shield+axe or polearm (dwarven longaxe/longhammer). I won't know until I've played for a level or two to see what I prefer, but I suspect I will favor polearm because I get defensive stance, so reach would be very useful. I've considered three levels of phalanx fighter, but I want to keep all my paladin abilities leveled with me, so more than a one level dip is a no go.
Third, I may need to be the party's partial healer. It's a four person group. There's me, a hobgoblin two handed fighter, and then one bard (watersinger or archaelogist) and one psionic character (psion or cryptic). I am totally willing to do this via lay on hands; the issue is that I won't have many uses because stonelords don't benefit much from charisma so I won't put it above twelve, and I only get one mercy, at 6th level. What lay on hands feats are the best? Keep in mind my channel energy only works on earth subtype creatures.
The one thing that struck me about the Stonelord Archetype, is that you lose Smite Evil, Channel Energy (except for healing earth elementals), and Divine Grace. This means the only thing that Charisma applies to, is the number of Lay on Hands per day that you have.
My point is that you can keep your CHA low (which is great for Dwarves), avoiding some of Multi-Attribute Dependency (which is great for everyone), and still be very strong.
But, I think you'll have a problem being the primary healer.
I won't be a primary healer; I'll be splitting duties with the bard. But I'm not adverse to spending a feat or two to improve my lay on hands.
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For out of combat healing you cant beat a wand of cure light wounds price-wise.
If price per hit point is your only metric, then a wand of CLW can, in fact, be beaten.
That Bull Rushing idea, though, is pretty great. It'll be a little awkward to pull off, since you get a -5 on the check, but you could probably manage it.| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hmmm. Take a look at this:
Earth Channel (Su)
At 4th level, a stonelord gains Elemental Channel (earth) as a bonus feat, which she may activate by spending two uses of her lay on hands ability, using her paladin level as her effective cleric level.
This ability replaces channel positive energy.
And then take a look at the feat "Elemental Channel":
Choose one elemental subtype, such as air, earth, fire, or water. You can channel your divine energy to harm or heal outsiders that possess your chosen elemental subtype.
Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature.
Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of your chosen elemental subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of your elemental subtype, your channel energy has no affect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new elemental subtype.
Either the feat you just gained does nothing - as you can no longer actually channel energy. Or else you can still channel energy, but you just gained a bonus feat. I think the last part is correct. And I think the archtype was meant to read "This ability changes channel positive energy." And the feat you gain gives you a choice if you want to channel energy normally - or elementally.
@Derwalt the Channel Energy feat for Stonelord as written, is basically meant to heal up your elemental. There are variant channeling abilities that you can do instead of the Earth Channel as options. I'm going with the protection variant channeling which gives me at level 1 a +1 sacred bonus to AC for "healing" and -1 sacred bonus to AC for "harming"
@Jackissocool - Make sure to take fatigue as your 6th level mercy. This will remove the fatigued condition when you lay on hands to yourself (and heal you in the process) to allow you to get out of your defensive stance and then reenter it if you need to!
For out of combat healing you cant beat a wand of cure light wounds price-wise.If price per hit point is your only metric, then a wand of CLW can, in fact, be beaten.
That Bull Rushing idea, though, is pretty great. It'll be a little awkward to pull off, since you get a -5 on the check, but you could probably manage it.
Another thing to consider to help with the bull rushing is to take the alternate Dwarven racial trait Relentless:
"Dwarves are skilled at pushing their way through a battlefield, tossing aside lesser foes with ease. Dwarves with this racial trait receive a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to bull rush or overrun an opponent. This bonus only applies while both the dwarf and his opponent are standing on the ground. This racial trait replaces stability."
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Reach Weapons and a thrown weapon or two are going to be a good way to go as well, since one of your major abilities (Defensive Stance) completely cuts off your ability to move. Picking up the mercy to cure fatigue can be nice as well, since it allows you to drop your stance as a free action, move up to the enemy, lay on hands for a swift, then free action resume your defensive stance and make an attack.
A lot of these are ideas that I have had as well. Dwarven boulder helmet, cleave tree, fatigue mercy. It's good to see that these are viable choices. My question on the cleave tree is this: I won't be moving much, due to defensive stance. I view cleave as something to do after a move action. Am I wrong? Cleave through is certainly not a choice because of defensive stance.
Also, CLW wand won't work for me because I don't get spells at all. It could work for one of the bards, though.
I've got a crossbow for range. I won't be putting feats into it. Is a throwing weapon a better choice?
Dorn dergar isn't necessary because of the boulder helmet.
Also, variant channel seems like a good idea for this build. My options are probably Forge, Earth, Law, Bravery, Strength, Battle, and Protection. Since this is basically just for my elemental and any earth types my allies might summon, and maybe me if I can swing it with my DM, what would be best? Also keep in mind I'm more interested in heal. My charisma is 10 or 12, so I won't be using it to damage much due to low DC.
If you are more interested in healing, then this particular archetype is not the one you want to go with it's that simple. You know he gives up all his spells and he's more of a stalwart defender with a bit of paladin splashed in for flavor. This archetype is for tanking and being the party meatshield. Don't try to do more than that with it or you'll end up unhappy.
Work with his strengths, make yourself nearly unkillable with your feats, traits, and gear. If you are the one taking the hits then you don't need to worry about healing others, just buy some CLW wands (and better as you level up), hand them to the guys who can use them, make yourself the one who gets hit all the time, and then have the others heal you when they need to, this will make it so that you don't need to worry about "splitting healing duties" because you will be the one getting hit/healed most often.
every time I think of stonelord, I think...
Stone plate! Stone tower shield! bolder helmet made of stone! Stone Warhammer! tack on as many mundane armour enhancements you can! You become a walking fortress! :p
If you are more interested in healing, then this particular archetype is not the one you want to go with it's that simple. You know he gives up all his spells and he's more of a stalwart defender with a bit of paladin splashed in for flavor. This archetype is for tanking and being the party meatshield. Don't try to do more than that with it or you'll end up unhappy.
Work with his strengths, make yourself nearly unkillable with your feats, traits, and gear. If you are the one taking the hits then you don't need to worry about healing others, just buy some CLW wands (and better as you level up), hand them to the guys who can use them, make yourself the one who gets hit all the time, and then have the others heal you when they need to, this will make it so that you don't need to worry about "splitting healing duties" because you will be the one getting hit/healed most often.
Trust me, healing is not going to be my build focus in any way. I am a talk first and foremost. My duty is to stand there and shrug off hits while smashing any who dare close with me. But, I am not adverse to spending a feat or two on lay on hands. And since I get Channel Energy for my earth friends, I am interested to know what alternative choice works best.
I like how with the "Earth" version of Variant Channeling you can throw up a 30' radius of difficult terrain at a moment's notice. Real nice when you need to do some crowd control and keep the bad guys bogged down.
Honestly I'd not even dip into the extra LOH feats or anything of the kind to up your healing. You said it yourself that you are there to take the hits. You'll be rather feat starved as it is because you will want to take things to boost your defense and allow you to keep the enemies on you rather than your party. Don't worry about the healing stuff, leave that up to the others to take care of. If you were a normal paladin, then go for added stuff to aid in healing, but as this particular archetype you are absolutely not geared to do it. Again, play to your characters strengths otherwise you will gimp yourself in the end and make a character that tries to do too many things and isn't able to do what he's supposed to very well.
Alright, I suppose you're right. I'll avoid the LoH stuff. We've got a bard or two, so we should be fine.
Yup just buy the party some CLW wands if you want to contribute to healing. Otherwise the fact that you are taking the hits = healing of the party instead of them getting killed.
So back to variant channeling! I like the ability to make difficult terrain with Earth, it gives me a use for when I don't have my elemental with me, and is probably the only good one for harm. But the heal is useless, because my elemental already has DR/-. My other choices that I like are Protection, Law, and Bravery. Of these four, which is best?
For my build, I'm going with protection. It's a matter of personal preference. I don't think any are the "best," so go with what would help you out with your build.
I think I'll go with bravery. Any answers to my cleave queries form before?
I agree that though Antagonize sounds like it might be a cool thing to do, it's very situational. I won't be taking it in my game because I'm going to be playing in the Carrion Crown AP in September and mindless undead won't be affected by it to come attack me.
As far as cleave goes it's another of those situational feats. It's great for taking out a lot of mooks/minions/fodder, so it's really good for lower levels (but gets worse over time as you level), but my thinking is that if you can hit the bigger guys harder and have them focus on you, that is the way to go. The well-placed fireball or other AOE spell from your friends should take the little guys out faster and you can concentrate on absorbing the attention of the one's that actually hit hard(er).
Cleave is better for fighters who can swap out their combat feats at levels 4/8/12/16/20 to upgrade into things that are stronger against the bigger baddies.
I'm currently still debating on whether to grab the TWF/Shield Bashing stuff for my character later on or a couple of feats that up my defense more, while I have solidly decided on using the Dorn-Dergar weapon.
So no cleave, or at least probably no cleave. Furious focus is always a good choice, so I'll take that. I'll also take improved bullrush, and maybe greater bull rush and quick bull rush later on. Greater could be really good, because when an enemy gets adjacent, I bull rush them away, into reach of my longaxe, and possibly back out again, provoking an AoO.
I was considering antagonize. How is it different now?
I like FF as well because then you don't worry about the penalties for Power Attack with your first swing, giving you a better chance to hit is always nice.
I've got another character in a home-brew who I was thinking about doing the bull-rush stuff with (all the way up to awesome blow - with plans to use enlarge to get it), but the problem I see with it is at higher levels you are facing things with such extreme CMD, which includes extra legs and size, that bull-rushing may be really hard to do, then you also run into creatures that fly and you can't bull-rush or trip so I've been re-thinking anything that deals with Combat Maneuvers all together. The main reason I wanted to do bull-rushing was for flavor as I can imagine a very large barbarian charging into combat and tossing aside everyone while deep into his rage.
Antagonize used to make it so everyone who failed had to engage you in melee, now if they have a ranged weapon or spells they can just attack you from where they are standing. Some said it used to be way over-powered and cheesy, which I can see if the wizard has to run to his death at your sword-point.
What about the Steel Soul feat? It seems like a no-brainer.
I'm seriously thinking about taking that one too, it should make a stonelord a great tank in regards to AC AND saving throws against spells.
Another couple of feats that I'm taking are Lunge for the extra 5 ft of reach (15 ft reach w/ Dorn-Dergar) and Combat Reflexes. I have a pretty high DEX so I'll get 4 AoOs per round, good boost to AC, good boost to Reflex saves, and a bit better initiative bonus of course.
Was looking for tank ideas, when I came across this thread. I do like the bodyguard and In Harm's Way feats. Is their something farther down the line? Some way to take the attack vs your ac? Seams taking Dmg reguardless of your AC is a fast track to bad things.
I think the Variant Earth Channeling is a good choise for Such a Charakter. Moving next to the caster/ranged, lay down difficult terrain, no f**cking "5ft. Step & cast/shoot" anymore :D
Also it allows you to close narrow corridors much more easy. take a position in it, earth shatter, defense stance, wait for the enemy melees to close in :D
Also for a Polearm Stonelord Impr. Bull Rush is an intressting Idea. If a enemy closing in, bull rush him with you (spiked) Gauntler and put him back into yours polearm reach :D
P.S.: What action is it to loose a hand from a 2H Weapon and what to re-grip it?
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There's no action listed for that so we have to assume it's a free action. Your GM's mileage may vary.
Bullrushing does not need a weapon and indeed can't be done with a weapon, since it's a standard and not an attack action unless you pick Quick Bullrush or do it through a charge(debatable).
I got a stonelord paladin with a dwarven longaxe that I really would like to play one day, but he's for PFS, so some longer feat trees are out of the question, unfortunately.
As the stonelord and the variant channeling both change channel energy I would have thought hat they are not compatible.