Balrick Granitefist's page

Balrick Granitefist wrote:

Riuken wrote:

In response to the Dwarven Paladin Stonelord and Tower Shield Specialist Fighter I ask: what incentive does the enemy have to attack you? They walk around you and hit your squishies with little or no retribution. Being super durable is a cool tank strategy if you want to fight all the enemies yourself while tripping over the bodies of your dead compatriots.

Depends on your build and weapon choice. You can have power attack and use a two-handed weapon with reach or you can go with the shield and 1h route. The 2-handed will give you more DPR and "attract" more attention, but you'll lose a bit of AC in doing so.

IMHO there is no "right" answer to this question because this isn't a video game and you can't grab and sustain aggro like you do in one of them. The best you can do is try to mitigate damage for yourself and your allies and hit hard enough that they don't think they can get past you without some sort of retribution. Since the nerf to Antagonize, there isn't a real way to keep someone really focused on you within range where you can counter their attacks.

The main reason I said Stonelord is because of their versatility to mitigate damage as a tank, you get that elemental companion and the best use of your stance and your companion are when trying to bottleneck the enemies in front of you where they can NOT get past without killing you first, then you have your ranged casters and ranged melee firing over the top of your 4ft frame. Think of yourself as their shield, pick up feats that allow you to aid their AC and take their place in battle.

Your video game reference would make alot more sense if it was talking about mmo pvp (player vs player = players vs gm). Because what you describe is scripted, and can only function that way. Now give the opponents real intelligence, aka controlled by the gm, and now you have a different story.

A traditional tank is good and all, but again, what convinces your intelligent opponents to attack...

That was my point exactly. This isn't a video game that you can "grab aggro" with. This is a game with a GM controlling the monsters and NPC's so you really can't get the kind of tank that the OP was asking about IMO. He asks for the "best tank" and there are tons of different builds that all lend to great tanks in PF, but there is no "best." This is also why I brought up the nerf to Antagonize, because previously everything (wizards included here) would have to drop whatever they were doing and ran over at you to attempt to melee with you. Now they can just focus on you from the back behind cover or behind a line of their allies.

So in my opinion what makes a good tank is someone who has good survivability and that can control the tempo of the battlefield. There are ways of doing this through usage of terrain, reach, spells, feats, companions, and stances (in the case of the stonelord and stalwart defender).

Also, the best tank is the tank that you have the most fun with. Try out different things and see what works best for you and your play style.

In response to the Dwarven Paladin Stonelord and Tower Shield Specialist Fighter I ask: what incentive does the enemy have to attack you? They walk around you and hit your squishies with little or no retribution. Being super durable is a cool tank strategy if you want to fight all the enemies yourself while tripping over the bodies of your dead compatriots.

Depends on your build and weapon choice. You can have power attack and use a two-handed weapon with reach or you can go with the shield and 1h route. The 2-handed will give you more DPR and "attract" more attention, but you'll lose a bit of AC in doing so.

IMHO there is no "right" answer to this question because this isn't a video game and you can't grab and sustain aggro like you do in one of them. The best you can do is try to mitigate damage for yourself and your allies and hit hard enough that they don't think they can get past you without some sort of retribution. Since the nerf to Antagonize, there isn't a real way to keep someone really focused on you within range where you can counter their attacks.

The main reason I said Stonelord is because of their versatility to mitigate damage as a tank, you get that elemental companion and the best use of your stance and your companion are when trying to bottleneck the enemies in front of you where they can NOT get past without killing you first, then you have your ranged casters and ranged melee firing over the top of your 4ft frame. Think of yourself as their shield, pick up feats that allow you to aid their AC and take their place in battle.

I'd like to nominate the Dwarven Paladin Stonelord archetype! He basically a mix of a paladin and a stalwart defender, add in steel soul and glory of old and he gets amazing saves (especially against spells, spell-like effects, and poisons). He can wear the heaviest armor and not be encumbered by it, he gains defensive stance, you can pick up variant channeling (protection) to add AC to yourself and everyone else in the group, gains natural armor bonuses up to +5, you get stone-strike which ignore hardness acts as adamantine + magical when you hit with it (replaces smite), get a nifty earth elemental to help you tank and be your flanking buddy, and eventually you can no longer be poisoned, critted, stunned, or paralyzed!

Just my 2 cents...

Look at the Dorn-Dergar for a weapon, then look at the Dorn-Dergar Master and the Darting Viper feat.

This gives you a decent weapon which you can use at reach or with a move action you can use in close quarters with 1 hand, leaving your other hand open to use a shield and even TWF if you want to go that direction to get some more damage out there. You could also look into the boulder helm to use while you can't use the Dorn-Dergar in close range and still threaten by being able to head-butt the enemies. I'd also suggest grabbing Combat Reflexes as that'll be key to getting you more damage output as things try to move past you.

For your 6th level mercy make sure to take the remove fatigue as that will be the ONLY mercy you get for your LOH. This will allow you to come out of your stance, heal yourself, remove your fatigue, move and enter your stance again because you won't be fatigued.

This would also be very helpful for Stalwart Defenders and Dwarven Stonelord Paladins allowing them to Defensive Stance Cycle.

Let's keep it clean everyone. There are kids that read these forums. Get back to the topic of a 5 CHA Dwarf Fighter.

I'm seriously thinking about taking that one too, it should make a stonelord a great tank in regards to AC AND saving throws against spells.

Another couple of feats that I'm taking are Lunge for the extra 5 ft of reach (15 ft reach w/ Dorn-Dergar) and Combat Reflexes. I have a pretty high DEX so I'll get 4 AoOs per round, good boost to AC, good boost to Reflex saves, and a bit better initiative bonus of course.

I like FF as well because then you don't worry about the penalties for Power Attack with your first swing, giving you a better chance to hit is always nice.

I've got another character in a home-brew who I was thinking about doing the bull-rush stuff with (all the way up to awesome blow - with plans to use enlarge to get it), but the problem I see with it is at higher levels you are facing things with such extreme CMD, which includes extra legs and size, that bull-rushing may be really hard to do, then you also run into creatures that fly and you can't bull-rush or trip so I've been re-thinking anything that deals with Combat Maneuvers all together. The main reason I wanted to do bull-rushing was for flavor as I can imagine a very large barbarian charging into combat and tossing aside everyone while deep into his rage.

Antagonize used to make it so everyone who failed had to engage you in melee, now if they have a ranged weapon or spells they can just attack you from where they are standing. Some said it used to be way over-powered and cheesy, which I can see if the wizard has to run to his death at your sword-point.

I agree that though Antagonize sounds like it might be a cool thing to do, it's very situational. I won't be taking it in my game because I'm going to be playing in the Carrion Crown AP in September and mindless undead won't be affected by it to come attack me.

As far as cleave goes it's another of those situational feats. It's great for taking out a lot of mooks/minions/fodder, so it's really good for lower levels (but gets worse over time as you level), but my thinking is that if you can hit the bigger guys harder and have them focus on you, that is the way to go. The well-placed fireball or other AOE spell from your friends should take the little guys out faster and you can concentrate on absorbing the attention of the one's that actually hit hard(er).

Cleave is better for fighters who can swap out their combat feats at levels 4/8/12/16/20 to upgrade into things that are stronger against the bigger baddies.

I'm currently still debating on whether to grab the TWF/Shield Bashing stuff for my character later on or a couple of feats that up my defense more, while I have solidly decided on using the Dorn-Dergar weapon.

For my build, I'm going with protection. It's a matter of personal preference. I don't think any are the "best," so go with what would help you out with your build.

Yup just buy the party some CLW wands if you want to contribute to healing. Otherwise the fact that you are taking the hits = healing of the party instead of them getting killed.

Honestly I'd not even dip into the extra LOH feats or anything of the kind to up your healing. You said it yourself that you are there to take the hits. You'll be rather feat starved as it is because you will want to take things to boost your defense and allow you to keep the enemies on you rather than your party. Don't worry about the healing stuff, leave that up to the others to take care of. If you were a normal paladin, then go for added stuff to aid in healing, but as this particular archetype you are absolutely not geared to do it. Again, play to your characters strengths otherwise you will gimp yourself in the end and make a character that tries to do too many things and isn't able to do what he's supposed to very well.

If you are more interested in healing, then this particular archetype is not the one you want to go with it's that simple. You know he gives up all his spells and he's more of a stalwart defender with a bit of paladin splashed in for flavor. This archetype is for tanking and being the party meatshield. Don't try to do more than that with it or you'll end up unhappy.

Work with his strengths, make yourself nearly unkillable with your feats, traits, and gear. If you are the one taking the hits then you don't need to worry about healing others, just buy some CLW wands (and better as you level up), hand them to the guys who can use them, make yourself the one who gets hit all the time, and then have the others heal you when they need to, this will make it so that you don't need to worry about "splitting healing duties" because you will be the one getting hit/healed most often.

Micro-Bio wrote:

For out of combat healing you cant beat a wand of cure light wounds price-wise.

If price per hit point is your only metric, then a wand of CLW can, in fact, be beaten.

That Bull Rushing idea, though, is pretty great. It'll be a little awkward to pull off, since you get a -5 on the check, but you could probably manage it.

Another thing to consider to help with the bull rushing is to take the alternate Dwarven racial trait Relentless:

@Jackissocool - Make sure to take fatigue as your 6th level mercy. This will remove the fatigued condition when you lay on hands to yourself (and heal you in the process) to allow you to get out of your defensive stance and then reenter it if you need to!

@Derwalt the Channel Energy feat for Stonelord as written, is basically meant to heal up your elemental. There are variant channeling abilities that you can do instead of the Earth Channel as options. I'm going with the protection variant channeling which gives me at level 1 a +1 sacred bonus to AC for "healing" and -1 sacred bonus to AC for "harming"

I feel like playing a foul mouthed Dwarf... just worried that other players may find the RPing to be too much and get upset with me.

Balrick Granitefist wrote:

You have bad social graces (no table manners)
You cuss a lot which offends everyone
You are bi-polar (nice one minute then crying or cussing the next)
Your manners in general are offensive or rude; farting, burping, having to talk to someone within their personal space like nose to nose, can't take a joke so you start fights easily (angry), or yes you are a drunkard.

I SO want to be like that, just worried as above...

Just let them know that you are IN CHARACTER and ask them to not take offense OUT OF CHARACTER, it's fine if their PC's take offense as that is what you'd expect with the role playing. Be adults about it and keep the communication open. It's that simple, they will thank you for being honest and let you know if you go too far.

Nah, you are fine. You are definitely not the life of the party.

Low CHA can mean a lot of things and can be fun to role play!

A few ideas:
You are ugly (which is what most people think about low CHA)
You smell bad - Never bathe, brush your teeth, or change your clothes
You have bad social graces (no table manners)
You have a speech impediment which makes it difficult to talk to others (perhaps a stutter or lisp)
You cuss a lot which offends everyone
You are afraid to talk to people
You are anti-social
You have MPD (multiple personality disorder)
You are bi-polar (nice one minute then crying or cussing the next)
Your manners in general are offensive or rude; farting, burping, having to talk to someone within their personal space like nose to nose, can't take a joke so you start fights easily (angry), or yes you are a drunkard.

There are numerous ways to do it which would be believable or

The other thing is that you are a DWARF, you get bonuses to saves verses spells/spell like abilities/poisons so don't worry about a low WILL save. If you are worried take the feats Steel Soul, Iron Will and Improved Iron Will to shore up that lower saving throw.

I'd suggest he go with an Aasimar from the Blood of Angels and pick a bloodline. He'll get the flavor he wants and your group will get the balance they want.

@Waiph - Good points, I'm with you on them. I've changed his Str to 18 and his Dex to 16, at some point if I wanted to work on the higher TWF feats I could add to Dex a bit more to qualify, but I'm thinking right now it's all about the 2-handing the Dorn-Dergar.

A couple of things I'm contemplating:
1) I'm wondering if I should grab Power Attack (level 3 feat) with this build so that I can hit harder at the beginning, then start moving towards the shield bashing and more defense/twf.
2) Or forgoing the shield route all together, using the dorn-dergar w/ 2 hands, grabbing the Darting Viper feat later, grabbing shield of swings so that I can up my AC by +4 while in a defensive stance, as the dorg-dergar is a 2h weapon and would qualify for this feat.
Basically going:
Level 1 - Power Attack
Level 3 - Shield of Swings
Level 5 - Combat Reflexes
Level 7 - Lunge
Level 9 - Darting Viper
Level 11 -
3) Possibly first 2 levels going with a fighter to gain the bonus feats, then jumping into the Stonelord for the last 14+levels (as we are doing the CC AP it should end around level 16 or so). This would give me 4 feats at 3rd level (2 fighter 1st, 1 fighter 2nd, and 1 stonelord 1st). The problem with this is the delaying of my stonelord powers.

I am starting to get a better feel for it, just want to build a competent character that will be able to take the hits.

@StrangePackage - You are saying to lower Dex to 16 and up Str to 18?

As long as I have a light enough armor I can take full advantage of the 18 Dex in my current incarnation with better Reflex saves, more AOOs, higher AC, and using a shield as a weapon to bash with and my dorn-dergar in my main hand as 1-handed.

I'm not sure if upping Str will help me much since I probably won't be hitting very hard as it is so I'm not even sure if I'll be taking Power Attack at this point.

I have to think on this a bit more!

@NeoSeraphi - I was just looking over the Magic Resistant again last night and contemplating its usefulness. You bring up a good point, I will probably go back to Hardy. Not sure about taking Steel Soul though as I feel I may be feat strapped very quickly with this character. The only thing I can think to do is maybe dip a level or two into fighter at the beginning. Not sure if I want to do that though as I'd like to play it straight up as a stonelord.

As far as an extra LoH, it puts me in the same situation with being feat starved. I'm still working it out to figure out which direction I want to go with him whether using a shield and twf with it and the dorn-dergar or just using the dorn-derger and a helmet to head-butt things if they close with me.

@Serum - I was thinking of it only being part of a charge, you are of course correct. That makes the shield bashing w/ the bull-rush pretty nice.

@Waiph - Oops, the Wis was 14 + 2 = 16, I fat-fingered it somehow and didn't read it over again.

Stonelord gets no spells except his LOH actually so I think going lower w/ the CHA is probably a really good idea.

Stats Rolled: 15/15/18/11/14/16

So I could go...
16 Str - +1 atk/dmg than what I had
18 Dex - I like that this would up my AoOs, my AC, and my reflex saves good ideas here!
17 Con (15+2) - Bump @ 4th Level for 18, a few less hit points, but I'll be hit less often so a good trade of and my fort is good as it is.
11 Int - Stays the same, my dump stat basically
16 Wis (14+2) - Stays the same, helps with my Will saves
13 Cha (15-2) - Lowered by 1, so not a big difference in the skills like Dip/Bluff/Sense motive and only LoH is dependent on it.

I like the build you posted, though I'm not sure about the combat patrol if I am in a defensive stance and can't actually move w/o going out of it. The other thing is the question of the shield bashing and bull-rushing, if I'm in the stance I don't think I can actually bull-rush.

I think I like the idea of Imp TWF to fight w/ the shield and the dorn-dergar though. So that is something that I need to really think on.

@Serum - wow, didn't realize that with the reach, good point.

@Deadmanwalking - Good idea, I'll do that, then it would make me hit harder too.

@SuperUberGeek - I'll look into that as well. I think there's also a feat that adds to that kind of damage with a helmet, just can't remember the name off the top of my head.

I've just never played a character quite like this before so I'm trying to study up on it. I like to have it planned out ahead of time so that my vision fits what he is able to do in-game.

I agree with @Serum and I probably should go the route where i have reach for sure since with the dorn-dergar and lunge i'd have a 15ft reach, then grab darting viper and if they close within threat I can (as a swift action) make it a non-reach weapon and still use it very effectively. Enlarge is also a great idea since then I'd have up to a 20ft reach w/ that weapon when lunging.

I think I'll have to focus on the armor and magical items to up my AC even more.

You could do a very standard sword and shield build. It would allow you to tank, and deal some decent damage.

Yeah, I've thought of that as well. I'm just trying to get a feel for the feats I'd need to be effective as a tank and some small amount of damage. I know my role isn't going to be like that of a 2h raging barbarian with their burst damage, so this will be a departure for me from someone who deals damage to one that soaks it up and is pretty unkillable.

Yeah, the reach weapon was my primary idea and using the special dwarven dorn-dergar is a 2h reach weapon. I can get a feat Dorn-Dergar Master which would allow me to wield it w/ 1 hand and utilize a shield at the same time. This along with darting viper would mean that I take my move action to make it a normal ranged weapon instead of reach and if I'm wielding it with 2 hands and utilize the darting viper feat the change from reach to normal is a swift action.

I don't think I want to dip into other classes, the only multi-class I may consider is the stalwart defender prestige class since a lot of the stonelord's powers stack with it. Good idea though, I'll just make sure to buy potions to drink so that I can remove the fatigued effect especially until level 6 because at that point I get the remove fatigue mercy to go with my Lay on Hands, which would be a pretty nice thing to use in-combat.

First, I apologize for the lengthy wall of text below, but I believe it's relevant to the question/discussion that I'd like to talk about.

I'm very intrigued by the Dwarven Stonelord Paladin Archetype and am looking at building one up for a new campaign (carrion crown) that starts up in a few weeks. I'm curious how others would build up this class. I am thinking a melee tank that absorbs the punishment, shrugs off powerful hits and spells with a laugh and stands in front of his friends to protect them with his faithful earth elemental.

I know that a normal paladin or one of the other archetypes would be more "optimal" for the AP, but I want to play the stonelord. My current build idea is focused on grabbing a reach weapon so I grabbed the Dorn-Dergar and figured that nabbing PA right away would help with some extra damage to make it so that enemies would actually go after him. I was thinking about antagonize, but if we are dealing with mindless undead that wouldn't work too well to bring them towards me. I also figure to use my 6 level mercy (the only one I get) to get remove fatigue so that I can use my LoH to heal hit points and the fatigue caused by coming out of the defensive stance then move and go back into the stance.

I'm open to all suggestions as these are my rough draft ideas and my initial thoughts below.

My line of thinking:
1) Go for reach - use my 2-handed Dorn-Dergar with power attack, grab lunge, grab darting viper (to make the weapon none reach as a swift action instead of move action), grab cleaving abilities including the dwarf-specific one (though I'm not sure if you can cleave with this kind of weapon or not...) and maybe whirlwind down the line.

2) Go for defense - getting a nice shield, get full plate ASAP, and a good 1-handed blunt weapon (warhammer or something similar), grab some shield bashing feats, grab combat reflexes and go to down with bashing and AOOs if they close with me.

Stats (rolled) and I got super lucky with the dice:
15 Str
15 Dex
20 Con (18+2 from Dwarf)
11 Int
16 Wis (18+2 from Dwarf)
14 Cha (16-2 from Dwarf)

Feats:
1st - Currently Power Attack
3rd -
4th - Bonus - Channel Earth
5th -
7th -
9th -
11th -
13th -
15th -
17th -
19th -

My Traits:
1st - Subject of Study (Undead) +1 damage vs undead - This is a requirement in our game that we take 1 trait from the campaign.
2nd - Glory of Old - +1 vs Spells/Spell-like abilities/Poison (I know even with a +1 Initiative I won't be going first in my group, so I focus on beefing up the saves more here)

Dwarven Racial Traits:
Swapped out Hardy for Magic Resistant 5+level of SR against spells/spell-like abilities. Not sure if this would be better staying Hardy and combining it with the Glory of Old for +3s on the stuff.

Swapped out Stone Cunning for Rock Stepper - to be able to 5ft step over difficult terrain as I figured this would be better for a tank than someone who tries to spy out hidden doors with the others in the party (I believe we'll have an Elven Bard in the group) being able to do so better.

Ideas? Thoughts? Comments? What would you do differently?

Thanks in advance!
-Balrick