RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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There are two published double crossbows, one from the Advanced Player's Guide, and one in Classic Monsters Revisited. The two crossbows are slightly different (the one from the APG has a higher attack penalty and has specific wording for how the Crossbow Mastery feat works with it). Can I use the Minotaur Double Crossbow and reload it for free with Crossbow Mastery, or must I use the double crossbow from the APG?
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Both are legal so you can buy and use both.
Using Crossbow Mastery... well I can't see anything in the text that prohibits it. Crossbow Mastery specifically states that you can use any crossbow with it, which both certainly do.
With that in mind I can't really decide if it's cheesy or just really really cool so I'm just going to scratch my head here in the corner for a little bit.
How much does one cost?
Minotaur dcb
300gp.How much does one cost?
Minotaur dcb
the minotaur costs the same amount as the double?
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So, to me at least it seems like what's happening is this:
1. The minotaur crossbow is strictly better than the double crossbow.
2. The double crossbow was printed after the minotaur crossbow.
3. There is no reason to ever use the double crossbow if the minotaur crossbow exists.
4. The creators of the double crossbow were presumably aware of the existence of the minotaur crossbow.
5. Therefore the double crossbow was clearly intended as a replacement for the minotaur crossbow, however...
6. The designers did not clarify their intentions regarding the update, and the minotaur crossbow slipped through the cracks getting into PFS.
7. By RAI the minotaur crossbow is probably illegal, but by RAW it is legal. On the other hand, this is frustrating because...
8. The double crossbow sucks and sucks hard, even if you go to the trouble of doing all this Vital Strike/gravity bow legerdemain.
8. Without having run the math, I would say the minotaur crossbow build (even when tricked out with the mentioned enhancers) probably only becomes competitive to, rather than exceeding the performance of, standard longbow builds. But then again...
9. Archers are officially the most broken thing in the game at this point, next to Wizards (and kind of Sorcerers) who still have Real Ultimate Power.
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9. Archers are officially the most broken thing in the game at this point, next to Wizards (and kind of Sorcerers) who still have Real Ultimate Power.
So, where does this "official word" exist? I keep hearing these rumors, but never see the official report.
And never see the "broken things" about archers, either. Or is it solely the action economy that makes them broken?
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9. Archers are officially the most broken thing in the game at this point, next to Wizards (and kind of Sorcerers) who still have Real Ultimate Power.So, where does this "official word" exist? I keep hearing these rumors, but never see the official report.
And never see the "broken things" about archers, either. Or is it solely the action economy that makes them broken?
More of an action economy thing.
I'd say though that archers are NOT broken, but that ranged attacks in *conjunction* with certain things like paladin smiting or inquisitor bane *can* be quite overpowered *because* of action economy, if built "correctly".
This is exacerbated by the fact that GMs seldom do anything to counter ranged attackers (being busy with the melee PCs), so that fairly often, a ranged-PC will leave the table (i) totally unscathed and (ii) having racked up more kills than anyone.
(I've certainly experienced this with my 11th level archer ranger (PFS) and my 10th lvl ranged inquisitor (home game) quite often.)
So it gives the appearance of "broken" at times...
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Vioncent, remember that, sometimes, you will wind up with two different things accidentally getting the same name, and both of them being PFS legal.
Example:
Dueling weapon property.
There is a version, PFS legal, in the APG & UE.
There is a different version, also PFS legal, in the PFS Field Guide.
Given the publication order, they are two separate weapon properties that have the same name, and, in some ways, similar function.
And, yes, you may run into someone who has a +X Dueling, Dueling weapon.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I hate to resurrect such an old thread, but I've gotten into a bit of a debate with Hero Labs development support over this recently. Other than the fact that it's still listed in Additional Resources as it's own weapon type, is there anything official that the newer book didn't overwrite the minotaur version?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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They have slightly different weights and penalties for proficient wielders, as well as different names. I personally think they are different weapons.
Minotaur Double Crossbow (Classic Monsters Revisited)
Cost: 300 gp
Dmg (S): 1d6
Dmg (M): 1d8
Dmg (L): 2d6
Critical: 19–20/x2
Range: 100 ft.
Weight: 18 lb.
Type: Piercing
Minotaurs have a love of complicated things, and the double crossbow is one of their favorites. This heavy weapon fires a pair of iron-tipped bolts with deadly accuracy. Due to its size and weight, however, non-proficient wielders suffer a –8 penalty on their attack rolls. Even proficient wielders take a –2 penalty on their attack rolls. If the attack is successful, the target takes the listed damage twice, although critical hits and precisionbased damage are only applied to one of the bolts. Reloading a double crossbow takes 2 standard actions (one for each bolt), although the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to 2 move actions (meaning that it can be accomplished in 1 round).
Double Crossbow (Ultimate Equipment)
Cost: 300 gp
Dmg (S): 1d6
Dmg (M): 1d8
Critical: 19–20/x2
Range: 80 ft.
Weight: 18 lb.
Type: Piercing
This heavy weapon fires a pair of iron-tipped bolts with a single squeeze of the trigger. Because of its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage apply to only the first bolt. Reloading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery (Advanced Player’s Guide) allows you to reload both bolts as a move action. A double crossbow fires crossbow bolts.
Double Crossbow (Advanced Player's Guide)
Cost: 300 gp
Dmg (S): 1d6
Dmg (M): 1d8
Critical: 19–20/x2
Range: 80 ft.
Weight: 18 lb.
Type: Piercing
This heavy weapon fires a pair of irontipped bolts with a single squeeze of the trigger. Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt. Reloading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a move action.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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If I understand correctly, Minotaur crossbow was published in a section on minotaurs in a book before crossbow mastery existed. When UE came out they generalized the weapon and clarified the effect of crossbow mastery on it.
I would say that they are the same weapon, and the most recent source is correct.
PFS does have any sort of "must use most recent source" rule.
If they're both listed in Available Resources, they're both available.
As far as Hero Lab, it really is not super difficult to just create a custom entry if the official developers won't make it.
-j
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I've gotten into a bit of a debate with Hero Labs development support over this recently. Other than the fact that it's still listed in Additional Resources as it's own weapon type, is there anything official that the newer book didn't overwrite the minotaur version?
You can ask HeroLab to show you the ruling that states PFS uses the most recent printing for legality.
As far as I'm aware, there is no such statement by Campaign Leadership.
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Yes, the Minotaur double crossbow is superior in to the standard double crossbow, which applies a static -4 to attacks.
Considering Classic Monsters Revisited is a 3.5 product, I don't know why the old version is still legal. If you have the source, you can use it because it is still listed as legal in Additional Resources.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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people are arguing (in other threads) that if you use the minotaur cross bow, since it has no verbiage about crossbow mastery, you can reload it as a free action with crossbow mastery, and therefore can full attack with it.
So +20 feet, -2 instead of -4, and you can full attack and get double damage.
Throw gravity bow on there, and you have a full attack crossbow that does 4d6 damage per shot. For the same price as the normal double crossbow that cannot be full attacked with.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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you could see it as not being aided by Crossbow Mastery.How do you figure?
Minotaur Double Crossbow printed in 2008.
Crossbow Mastery printed in 2010.Crossbow, Double also printed in 2010.
You have to be pretty pedantic GM to conclude that Minotaur Double Crossbow doesn't have the same reload with Crossbow Mastery as Double Crossbow.
So if you don't agree with my rules interpretation, then expect table variance.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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you could see it as not being aided by Crossbow Mastery.How do you figure?Minotaur Double Crossbow printed in 2008.
Crossbow Mastery printed in 2010.
Crossbow, Double also printed in 2010.You have to be pretty pedantic GM to conclude that Minotaur Double Crossbow doesn't have the same reload with Crossbow Mastery as Double Crossbow.
So if you don't agree with my rules interpretation, then expect table variance.
Further:
Minotaur Double Crossbow printed in 2008. Written for 3.5
Crossbow Mastery printed in 2010. Written for pathfinder.
Crossbow, Double also printed in 2010. Written for pathfinder.
I also agree that it should be pulled from AR
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Campaign leadership certainly assumes there is one. At present the Mask of Stony Demeanor cost 8k if you own the ARG and 500 if you own UE. I really doubt that is the intent of the errata.
That is only partially a PFS decision. I had a chance to ask about that exact thing (to a PDT team member) and was told the UE price would also change when it receives another printing (i.e. the next errata it receives). I think it has stayed in the AR for simplicity sake, instead of changing it twice, but that's just my reading.
Though there are still other examples, I've never heard any one from the Campaign leadership talk about it one way or the other. I'm personally of the opinion that you run the item in question off of whatever source you have, since you are required to be able to provide that source. If you have both, then I'd probably use the newest, but if both are legal then both are legal.
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Keep in mind, it's an "Exotic" weapon, and supposedly exotic weapons are supposed to be slightly better than martial weapons due to feat expenditure. It's bad enough the Repeaters are worse than SIMPLE WEAPONS, so it would be nice if we had one, just one, crossbow that's almost worth taking. Just ONE weapon out of the entire list of crossbows that actually, despite not doing so through the appropriate mechanical aid to draw weight that crossbows had, actually deals heavy damage in a single hit, without actually being overwhelming vs other ranged weapons.
It's simple. Play a campaign with lots of underwater stuff. The underwater crossbows are the best ranged weapons underwater by far.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Plaid, I don't *think* James is advocating for crossbow mastery getting no benefit. I think his position was that MDC should be treated the same as DC for Crossbow mastery. I think he was further making the separate point that you could run in to a GM who says "Since the other DCs require extra text to explain how CM affects them, clearly we need that text, and since MDC doesn't have that text, we don't know how it is supposed to work with CM, so I am just going to say it doesn't."
It would, in my mind be a silly and pendatic ruling, and I might avoid that GM in future, even if it wasn't my crossbow, but it could happen, and is (barely) within the realm of legitimate GM judgement.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Plaid, I don't *think* James is advocating for crossbow mastery getting no benefit. I think his position was that MDC should be treated the same as DC for Crossbow mastery.
I think he was further making the separate point that you could run in to a GM ... [that says] ... I am just going to say it doesn't."
I might avoid that GM in future
You very accurately understood my point. I'd also avoid a GM that said it had no effect, but I won't say he isn't following the rules. Rules are interpreted and he is following his interpretation.
Not an official one I've ever seen.PFS does have any sort of "must use most recent source" rule.
-jJason typoed. That's supposed to be "does not" or "doesn't", based on the rest of his post.
Sorry, yes, I typoed.
Should "does not".
-j
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You very accurately understood my point. I'd also avoid a GM that said it had no effect, but I won't say he isn't following the rules. Rules are interpreted and he is following his interpretation.Plaid, I don't *think* James is advocating for crossbow mastery getting no benefit. I think his position was that MDC should be treated the same as DC for Crossbow mastery.
I think he was further making the separate point that you could run in to a GM ... [that says] ... I am just going to say it doesn't."
I might avoid that GM in future
Well usually DMs that rule strongly against players are very fluid with their interpretations. What I mean is that they change it back and forth between games.
I had a DM saying my Gnome using a curse from blood of angels was not legal because that is only available to aasimars, and at that same table let a human use it. I have also seen DM allow a monster to sunder as an attack but the next round not allow a player to do it. Some DMs want to be adversarial and wreck peoples fun at the tables.
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To bring this back from the dead, I have build a bolt ace recently and am looking at using the minotaur double. In my local shop the Gms ask to find an "offical opinion" on it from a PFS source. All I can find are these boards and it's nothing but a splatter-fest of maybes. So up until now has PFS said that a Minotaur double HAS to follow the same rules as the ACG double crossbow?
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To bring this back from the dead, I have build a bolt ace recently and am looking at using the minotaur double. In my local shop the Gms ask to find an "offical opinion" on it from a PFS source. All I can find are these boards and it's nothing but a splatter-fest of maybes. So up until now has PFS said that a Minotaur double HAS to follow the same rules as the ACG double crossbow?
You can use whatever legal source you want. Just make sure you also follow any campaign clarifications and/or errata for it. It doesn't matter if they have the same name, you use whatever rules text is available to you. If the PFS-powers-that-be want them to be the same, then they will update the campaign clarifications doc. (see the butchery of Fencing Grace from Advanced Class Origins)