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Make martial characters "mythic" and not just hit harder and get ANOTHER feat (or in other words, give them nice things). Things like cleaving mountains or the ability to "jump good"
Oh and some options for martial types who are clever (finese and potentially mental stats based) rather than flat out strong.
I like the idea of semi-artifacts that level with the player, hopefully this is pulled off better than Weapons of Legacy *shudders*
Samurai Jack is definitely mythic (and probably good inspiration for a number of martial abilities).
I'm currently in a group playing in a Pathfinder-ized version of 'Savage Tide', and our PCs just hit 20th level in the final module, 'Prince of Demons'. These are problems that our group has been experiencing in general with Pathfinder at high level play:
-Freedom of Movement: Mentioned by the OP, but this one spell tremendously nerfs high level encounters, especially titantic dragons and other critters that like to swallow or grab, not to mention just being able to flat-out ignore more environmental spells. This one is too good for a fourth level spell, especially when it can mitigate so many things that make up the teeth of high level play (like paralysis and grabbing)
-Evasion: Shouldn't be a big deal, but it's strange that every PC in our group either has it as a class ability or has a ring of it, even to the point of not wearing something as potent as a Ring of Three Wishes. It's too good of an ability, making it mathematically impossible to make most reflex-save effects worthwhile from a design standpoint. Make the save DC too high and it might as well be auto-damage, while too low and it has no effect. It'd be cool to see effects that make Improved Evasion worthwhile, maybe things that negate normal evasion??
-Heal: I know its a staple of high-level play, but it's entirely overused in our group because its so good, to the point that it takes the steam out of fight. Its not just the 150 hp swing but also the removal of every harmful effect in the game (except for a few) that can take away all the tension from a fight. I'd like to see (and we had this in our game, last module) Vile damage again: damage that can only be healed in a Hallowed area or similiar thing. Same thing for ability damage, blindness, and a lot of the other effects that Heal fixes. Basically, Effects that Trump Heal (besides ability drain and level loss).
-Protection from Evil: The protection from Mental control and Possession thing is really good.. even at 20th level. It used to be that Mind-Blank (an 8th level spell) was the only real way to shield oneself. Now that just provides a bonus (which I have no problem with), but Protection from Evil remains just as capable of stopping that Incorporeal Demon Lord of Body-Snatching as it does a Vampire from dominating you. Why is a 1st level spell this good? Something like that shouldn't be able to nerf so many things so badly.
-Average Damage: Sounds lame, but high-level combats take forever in PF. Iterative attacks are the main cause of this, but dealing with damage dealt, buffs, DR, and other mathematical aspects adds up time. When you have 8 attacks with two different weapons that do different damage, have different weapon properties, different materials, and the added calculations of attacks buffs and debuffs, what you get is the Game of Math, where numbers are rattled back and forth. The excitement of what a person is doing is lost as numbers get crunched over and over, and a single round of combat lasts half an hour. Having a pre-determined damage roll might be one step. This is one place where I still don't know what might help besides this.
-Maze: Strange as it seems, this spell is worse than any other I've seen thrown around by the 20th level Druid and Sorcerer. Against certain monsters, its a death sentence. Nothing breaks up a fight worse than removing a key opponent or the blocking muscle, especially when what gets 'Mazed' can't escape except for the old 'Natural 20' (which I don't think works since its an ability check). While said baddy is away, everyone can buff to the gills and prepare the place where their enemy re-appears accordingly, or just leave the encounter altogether. It doesn't work on Minotaurs.. oh, and Golems. Otherwise, an SR check is all it takes to send most monsters out of the fight.
-Magic Immunity equivalency: I understand the original design principle of golems, that they're monsters meant to tax the knowledge of the spellcasters while the fighters duke it out with them. With the options out there to play so many alternative spell-cating classes, its sort of a blow to those wanting to play a traditional one when they come across a creature that is immune to 95 percent of their class features. This isn't a problem for someone who's playing an Alchemist or a Witch, as Bombs and Hexes have no problem wittling down these creatures. I'd like to see the equivalency of Golems for witches and alchemists, heck even gunslingers: creatures that force people playing certain classes to think outside the box.
Half the ones you listed ALSO are listed as "just" Wizards/Other fullcaster (I think the same source even).
I can't think of any spell or combination of spells, even a 9th level one, in PF (short of that broken ring in UE and Ride the Lightning potentially), that could reduce a city to ash in a night, just like there isn't a spell to turn an entire army to stone. Just killing everyone I can think of lots of ways and there are a few ways to make a tornado and destroy it that way but not reducing the place to "ash", not even the original version of the 3.5 locate city bomb could do that.
Yep, but the ones I listed are all 20+ as described in Inner Sea Magic.
Not to be offensive, but I think perhaps suggestions should wait for the playtest.
It's cool. We got Eric Mona's permission :)
Yep. In fact, I believe he suggested it.
(Edit: Fixed typos)
@Snotlord: You should check out the discussion in this other thread, which is discussing mythic rules.
Thanks you gbonehead! I am aware of the other thread. Few new mechanics was actually my suggestion, so I put it here.
By "new mechanics" I mean alternate ways to handle criticals, mythic points when we already have hero points, traits when we already have racial traits, a class feature when a specific use of a skill is more appopriate - everything that makes the game more complex.
A new supernatural ability, feat or spell does not necessarily add to the complexity, it add options. I suggest the mythic rules should be about more options and power, not complexity, and I hope the designers agree.
Nothing to gain powers from worshipers or at least nothing that resembles the "Deities get their power from worshipers." Luckily Golarion's don't have that limitation but I just wanted to put it out there just in case.
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I am curious, what kind of stories, movies, games, mangas or other sources would you like to replicated with these rules. Or in other words, what kind of powers would you want.
Some examples:
Games: Onimusha (oni mode), Witcher 2 (calling fire down on a whole battlefield), Final Fantasy (Limit Breaks, calling down meteor)
Books: Terry Pratchett Discworld (Cohen the Barbarian, The Sorcerer, Rincewind (awesome powers of survival), Khaos, Lu-Tze)
Manga/Anime: Bastard !!! (freezing entire castles, beating a fire spirit with a fire spell, fighting several demon lords at the same time), Bleach (Zaraki Kenpachi)
Not to be offensive, but I think perhaps suggestions should wait for the playtest.
The reason being, we don't really have enough details on how it's going to be implemented in order to make realistic suggestions on abilities.
I'm not trying to rain on parades, I'm just saying that if people get really interested and jazzed about something that ends up not being able to work with the rules they put into the playtest, then that can give the playtest a negative aspect instead of actually playing it and seeing how it works.
At the workshop at GenCon, Jason was specifically asking us for ideas to add and wrote down several several of them. I believe there are a lot of blank spaces left in the mythic rules, and they want as much inspiration as they can get to flesh it all out.
There are quite a few suggestions in this thread that are already in the few rules, or very similar, that have been shown by the design team.
@Snotlord: You should check out the discussion in this other thread, which is discussing mythic rules.Thanks you gbonehead! I am aware of the other thread. Few new mechanics was actually my suggestion, so I put it here.
By "new mechanics" I mean alternate ways to handle criticals, mythic points when we already have hero points, traits when we already have racial traits, a class feature when a specific use of a skill is more appopriate - everything that makes the game more complex.
A new supernatural ability, feat or spell does not necessarily add to the complexity, it add options. I suggest the mythic rules should be about more options and power, not complexity, and I hope the designers agree.
I'm with you 100% on the complexity thing, though I really don't want it dumbed down too much either. With complexity comes options, with simplicity (usually) comes lack of options. 3.5e (and Pathfinder) are too complex for some folks, and I respect that, but they're not too complex for me, and with experience the existing high-level rules do work ... it just takes experience.
The point I was (failing :) to make was that because of the current rules, there's absolutes in regards to criticals and other abilities (you can NEVER crit me because of X, you can NEVER grab me because of Y) that take away the utility of those abilities. I think that for powerful enough creatures, the "nyeah! nyeah! you can never do X to me!" thing should somehow be converted to "Oh, crap, this creature can to X to me even though I have Evasion / freedom of movement / mind blank / protection from evil / etc."
My actual suggestion:
A corruption mechanic, probably optional, that can be used by any character. My personal preference for mythic stories often have to do with hubris and downfalls of driven individuals.
How to model this simply and effectively I'm not exactly sure, but my initial spitball would look something like this:
Corruption: If you have zero Mythic Points remaining, you may use a swift action to gain a new one. You also gain one Corruption Point. The effects vary depending on your alignment.
If you are Good or Neutral, you are now more easily swayed by Evil. If you are immune to any type of Enchantment spell, you lose that immunity as long as you have one or more Corruption Points. In addition, when dealing with Evil creatures, you take a penalty to Sense Motive checks and Wills saves against Enchantment spells equal to your current number of Corruption Points.
If you are Good you can immediately reduce your Corruption Points by twice your Mythic level by changing your alignment to Evil.
If you are Neutral you can immediately reduce your Corruption Points by your Mythic level by changing your alignment to Evil.
If you are Evil, you take additional damage from any source of Good damage, such as a weapon with the Holy property and any spell or creature that has the Good descriptor. You take additional damage equal to your Mythic level plus the number of Corruption Points you have. An adult Red Dragon with 5 Mythic levels who takes one Corruption Point will now take 6 additional damage.
Corruption Points can be removed by performing deeds (or Deeds if it's a capitalized thing in the mythic rules) that meet the GM's approval as qualifying as Good.
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My actual suggestion:
A corruption mechanic, probably optional, that can be used by any character. My personal preference for mythic stories often have to do with hubris and downfalls of driven individuals.
How to model this simply and effectively I'm not exactly sure, but my initial spitball would look something like this:
Corruption: If you have zero Mythic Points remaining, you may use a swift action to gain a new one. You also gain one Corruption Point. The effects vary depending on your alignment.
If you are Good or Neutral, you are now more easily swayed by Evil. If you are immune to any type of Enchantment spell, you lose that immunity as long as you have one or more Corruption Points. In addition, when dealing with Evil creatures, you take a penalty to Sense Motive checks and Wills saves against Enchantment spells equal to your current number of Corruption Points.
If you are Good you can immediately reduce your Corruption Points by twice your Mythic level by changing your alignment to Evil.
If you are Neutral you can immediately reduce your Corruption Points by your Mythic level by changing your alignment to Evil.
If you are Evil, you take additional damage from any source of Good damage, such as a weapon with the Holy property and any spell or creature that has the Good descriptor. You take additional damage equal to your Mythic level plus the number of Corruption Points you have. An adult Red Dragon with 5 Mythic levels who takes one Corruption Point will now take 6 additional damage.
Corruption Points can be removed by performing deeds (or Deeds if it's a capitalized thing in the mythic rules) that meet the GM's approval as qualifying as Good.
Sorry, but your system makes it seem like evil is something bad an somehow being good gives a lot of advantages. A corruption system might have it's place, why don't you remove the alignments ?
Pure characters doing damage to corrupt ones I can kinda understand, but this system would punish evil player characters.
And why the immunity to enchantment spells? That would mean immunity to heroism amongst other things. It might be balanced if each side had the same advantages against the other ( eg.bonus damage) pretty much like the good guys have DR/evil and the evil ones have DR/good.
Unless the city is all wood and you tell a elder fire elemental to walk through it (and if it was all wood, there are dozens of ways to do it earlier, but I ignored them because then it's more of "know wood burns" instead of "can easily be seen as a god"), I can't think of any outsider that can do it within Gate's "control" period short of Wish/Miracle's arbitrary effects.I can't think of any spell or combination of spells, even a 9th level one... that could reduce a city to ash in a night, just like there isn't a spell to turn an entire army to stone.A gate spell could do it by conjuring an appropriate outsider.
Although I'm sure the mythic rules will provide additional options.
I just figured he rocked out a series of Meteor Swarms, Incendiary Clouds, and Delayed Blast Fireballs. I would think that would set fire to a town pretty quick if they were well spaced out.
Sorry, but your system makes it seem like evil is something bad an somehow being good gives a lot of advantages. A corruption system might have it's place, why don't you remove the alignments ?
Pure characters doing damage to corrupt ones I can kinda understand, but this system would punish evil player characters.
And why the immunity to enchantment spells? That would mean immunity to heroism amongst other things. It might be balanced if each side had the same advantages against the other ( eg.bonus damage) pretty much like the good guys have DR/evil and the evil ones have DR/good.
Are you aware of how the Mythic Points work? I was at the workshop at GenCon, I can give the basic recap if you'd like. My post was written with the basic assumption that you knew that Mythic Points existed and would be used to power your other abilities.
I didn't say you GAIN immunity to enchantment spells. I said you LOSE immunity. For example, say you're immune to Charm and Compulsion spells normally. If you gain a Corruption Point, you are now susceptible to Charm and Compulsion spells cast by evil people. You also take a penalty to your saving throw.
It should be moderately punishing to evil characters. Being evil to gain more power should have a cost, especially if you're already evil. If you don't want the cost, just don't take the Corruption Points and live within your means of Mythic Points per day.
I'll echo a few favorites :
- Epic sized creature rules
- Epic uses for skills, acrobatics could boost speed for a round or provide a free move action, climb allows you to run up a wall, heal grants near magical ability to heal, bluff checks can dodge even magical detection and so on
- Make metamagic for 9th lvl spells a possibility without bending every option backwards
- Legendary items and spontaneous enchantment of weapons / items by doing epic deeds, slay the great wyrm and the sword spontaneously gains dragon slaying abilities and might in time become an epic item just by being used for epic deeds.
- epic afflictions / conditions, cursed by the gods not curable by mortal magic
- decreasing focus on the mundane with more mythic levels, no rest, faster recovery of hp and spells, less focus on normal magic items being able to rely on innate ability more and more, eclipsing the need for magical items and ungodly number of buffs
Post from the wrong thead:
I am curious, what kind of stories, movies, games, mangas or other sources would you like to replicated with these rules. Or in other words, what kind of powers would you want.
Glen Cook's The Black Company novels, particularly the first trilogy, the Books of the North. The Ten Who Were Taken, the Lady, Toadkiller Dog and Father Tree.
All of these suggestions are great and all but isn't there something even more productive we could do?
Like, get all of us to travel to a field somewhere with a clear view of the night sky (I hear Neptune will be in Opposition on August 24th) and beseech Yog-Sothoth to transport us a few months into the future? C'mon, you know it's a good idea. ;)
Glen Cook's The Black Company novels, particularly the first trilogy, the Books of the North.Post from the wrong thead:
I am curious, what kind of stories, movies, games, mangas or other sources would you like to replicated with these rules. Or in other words, what kind of powers would you want.
I had never heard of these. Interesting. Look's like I'll be adding a new series to my reading list.
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Just figure out how to gate AM BARBARIAN in. He'll find a way.
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Glen Cook's The Black Company novels, particularly the first trilogy, the Books of the North. The Ten Who Were Taken, the Lady, Toadkiller Dog and Father Tree.Post from the wrong thead:
I am curious, what kind of stories, movies, games, mangas or other sources would you like to replicated with these rules. Or in other words, what kind of powers would you want.
I really like those books as well. But I wouldn't call them mythic, I considered them gritty low level books.
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Sorry, but your system makes it seem like evil is something bad an somehow being good gives a lot of advantages. A corruption system might have it's place, why don't you remove the alignments ?
Pure characters doing damage to corrupt ones I can kinda understand, but this system would punish evil player characters.
And why the immunity to enchantment spells? That would mean immunity to heroism amongst other things. It might be balanced if each side had the same advantages against the other ( eg.bonus damage) pretty much like the good guys have DR/evil and the evil ones have DR/good.Are you aware of how the Mythic Points work? I was at the workshop at GenCon, I can give the basic recap if you'd like. My post was written with the basic assumption that you knew that Mythic Points existed and would be used to power your other abilities.
I didn't say you GAIN immunity to enchantment spells. I said you LOSE immunity. For example, say you're immune to Charm and Compulsion spells normally. If you gain a Corruption Point, you are now susceptible to Charm and Compulsion spells cast by evil people. You also take a penalty to your saving throw.
It should be moderately punishing to evil characters. Being evil to gain more power should have a cost, especially if you're already evil. If you don't want the cost, just don't take the Corruption Points and live within your means of Mythic Points per day.
Sorry I misread the line about enchantments. I read your recap about the mystic points and I know that they are used to power your abilities and cast mystic versions of spells.
I still don't really understand why you chose enchantment spells as representation for this weakness, but I guess you have have an idea how this would be fun in game.
I recently watched all episodes of Soul Eater and they used a system quite similar to yours - you used a dangerous but very powerful ability, but always had the chance to drown in your own madness.
The hole thing about hubris yeah sorry, not my style but I vaguely remember something similar, maybe from an old Dragon or other source. It was about demonic corruption, and how someone would be showered with gifts and abilities until he was finally evil – and the gifts would stop.
So if our heroes use these Corruption Points in an epic fight to rid the world of a great evil – do those actions counter each other?
PS. I think total immunities are almost always a very bad idea, so removing them is usually something positive for me.
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All of these suggestions are great and all but isn't there something even more productive we could do?
Like, get all of us to travel to a field somewhere with a clear view of the night sky (I hear Neptune will be in Opposition on August 24th) and beseech Yog-Sothoth to transport us a few months into the future? C'mon, you know it's a good idea. ;)
Well you could always drink yourself into oblivion and wake up months later (bad idea (tm) ). Of course this would rob us of the playtest, and they are usually a lot of fun/arguing with others/people expecting the end of pathfinder....
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I really like those books as well. But I wouldn't call them mythic, I considered them gritty low level books.Glen Cook's The Black Company novels, particularly the first trilogy, the Books of the North. The Ten Who Were Taken, the Lady, Toadkiller Dog and Father Tree.Post from the wrong thead:
I am curious, what kind of stories, movies, games, mangas or other sources would you like to replicated with these rules. Or in other words, what kind of powers would you want.
Well low level can be epic too, and if the books create that mystic feeling ... added to my reading list.
I really like those books as well. But I wouldn't call them mythic, I considered them gritty low level books.
I don't know, the Taken and the Lady really kind of have that "mythic" feel to them, to me. I mean, in the Black Company d20 game released years back, they were all epic level. Kina and Father Tree were practically demi-gods, too.
Well you could always drink yourself into oblivion and wake up months later (bad idea (tm) ). Of course this would rob us of the playtest, and they are usually a lot of fun/arguing with others/people expecting the end of pathfinder....All of these suggestions are great and all but isn't there something even more productive we could do?
Like, get all of us to travel to a field somewhere with a clear view of the night sky (I hear Neptune will be in Opposition on August 24th) and beseech Yog-Sothoth to transport us a few months into the future? C'mon, you know it's a good idea. ;)
Emphasis mine. I knew it! I've always had a strong suspicious that everyone else were merely figments of my mind. This proves it. For the sake of everyone else, I promise to remain conscious till after the Mythic rules are finished. No benders till then.
Emphasis mine. I knew it! I've always had a strong suspicious that everyone else were merely figments of my mind. This proves it. For the sake of everyone else, I promise to remain conscious till after the Mythic rules are finished. No benders till then.Well you could always drink yourself into oblivion and wake up months later (bad idea (tm) ). Of course this would rob us of the playtest, and they are usually a lot of fun/arguing with others/people expecting the end of pathfinder....All of these suggestions are great and all but isn't there something even more productive we could do?
Like, get all of us to travel to a field somewhere with a clear view of the night sky (I hear Neptune will be in Opposition on August 24th) and beseech Yog-Sothoth to transport us a few months into the future? C'mon, you know it's a good idea. ;)
I already drink my days into oblivion. Why stop now?
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I really like those books as well. But I wouldn't call them mythic, I considered them gritty low level books.I don't know, the Taken and the Lady really kind of have that "mythic" feel to them, to me. I mean, in the Black Company d20 game released years back, they were all epic level. Kina and Father Tree were practically demi-gods, too.
I get what you are saying. I don't remember Father Tree really it has been many years since I read them. I mean I remember who he was, but not what he did. As for the Taken and Lady. I seen it more as most of the characters where 1-6th level and the Taken etc where all 12-20. But I get what you are saying about it.
The hole thing about hubris yeah sorry, not my style but I vaguely remember something similar, maybe from an old Dragon or other source. It was about demonic corruption, and how someone would be showered with gifts and abilities until he was finally evil – and the gifts would stop.
So if our heroes use these Corruption Points in an epic fight to rid the world of a great evil – do those actions counter each other?
PS. I think total immunities are almost always a very bad idea, so removing them is usually something positive for me.
The theme of hubris is pretty common in a lot of myths and fables. I don't enjoy that kind of story exclusively, but I think the danger of overconfidence is an interesting element when you're adding higher levels of power.
I thought the weakness towards things like Charm Person and Dominate would make a Good character think twice about taking free points. An evil caster or demon with access to those powers would try to use them to influence a Good character to do evil things. The penalty to Sense Motive is similar as well. You can't tell when they're lying and more likely to believe them to be honest.
It might be the penalty needs to be adjusted, or something else entirely. I wrote the suggestion off the top of my head, not a long thought out document that has been play tested and edited. I'm not married to it in its original form.
Edit: my suggestion does come from some play experience as well though. I run a game called Mythender, I ran 3 session of it at GenCon, 4 players at each session and everyone seemed to have a really awesome time. The game allows a player to grab extra power faster if they want, but it comes at a cost. If they take too much power, at the end of a fight scene there is a chance their character becomes completely corrupted.
That game is designed for shorter stories, I mostly use it for one-shots, but I've had a lot of fun putting the choice in the players hand. I egg them on a little, push them with difficult battles and the like. It's not an easy choice, they have to balance their characters desires for power, freedom and survival.
I just figured he rocked out a series of Meteor Swarms, Incendiary Clouds, and Delayed Blast Fireballs. I would think that would set fire to a town pretty quick if they were well spaced out.Unless the city is all wood and you tell a elder fire elemental to walk through it (and if it was all wood, there are dozens of ways to do it earlier, but I ignored them because then it's more of "know wood burns" instead of "can easily be seen as a god"), I can't think of any outsider that can do it within Gate's "control" period short of Wish/Miracle's arbitrary effects.I can't think of any spell or combination of spells, even a 9th level one... that could reduce a city to ash in a night, just like there isn't a spell to turn an entire army to stone.A gate spell could do it by conjuring an appropriate outsider.
Although I'm sure the mythic rules will provide additional options.
Meteor Swarm is actually pretty pathetic. It's a mere 40 feet radius and the fire damage isn't even good, average of just over 36 plus 7 bludgeoning divided by two meteors.
(Extended) Incendiary Cloud I didn't think of. Likely the best option outside of templated Gate and Wish (cheeper too).
I think shapechange into a fire breathing dragon will be most efficient, being able to breath every 1d4 rounds in a line 100' or a cone 50' for 12d8 and a spell duration of 10 min/ lvl.
Possibly an incindiary cloud and a few mass suggestions to set the town on fire, mix in a few summoned or called fire creatures, animate dead to create some burning skeletons
I get what you are saying. I don't remember Father Tree really it has been many years since I read them. I mean I remember who he was, but not what he did. As for the Taken and Lady. I seen it more as most of the characters where 1-6th level and the Taken etc where all 12-20. But I get what you are saying about it.I really like those books as well. But I wouldn't call them mythic, I considered them gritty low level books.I don't know, the Taken and the Lady really kind of have that "mythic" feel to them, to me. I mean, in the Black Company d20 game released years back, they were all epic level. Kina and Father Tree were practically demi-gods, too.
Yeah, they were much more powerful than I thought they would be. If I remember correctly Old father tree had wish at will as a spell-like ability, and Keena had 170 HD. The stats in that source book were beyond ridiculous, but it was a fun setting.
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Research material ;D
Books:
Dresden Files
Discworld
Wheel of Time
Percy Jackson and the Olympians
Anime/Manga:
Bleach
Naruto
Dragon Ball (Z and GT might be too out there)
One Piece
Inuyasha
Hellsing
Vampire Hunter D
Slayers
Trigun (mythic gunslingers!)
The Hayao Miyazaki movies
Hare and Guu (Guu's the only mythic character as far as I can remember)
Read or Die
Yuu Yuu Hakusho
Lupin III
Berserk
Negima
Fairy Tale
Any other fantasy shonen series I missed :P
Games:
Final Fantasy (any/all of them)
Dragon Quest/Warrior
Chrono Trigger
Aquaria
Bastion
Magicka
Epic Battle Fantasy
TV/Movies:
Star Wars
Any wuxia movie
Alphas
Mythbusters
Kung Fu Panda
Cartoons/Comics:
Avatar: The Last Airbender
The Legend of Korra
Adventure Time
X-Men
Ben 10
Generator Rex
Hellboy
Samurai Jack
Other:
Tribute by Tenacious D
Tropes:
The Epic
Implausible Fencing Powers
Crazy Prepared
Improbable Aiming Skills
Named Weapons
Rule of Cool
Crowning Moment of Awesome
Charles Atlas Superpower
Barehanded Blade Block
Finger Poke of Doom
Absurdly Sharp Blade
One Man Army
(Ok, ok... I'll stop there. I've been stuck reading TvTropes for the past few hours. :P And dang it, even after all that, I feel like I forgot one good example of low-level mythic characters.)
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Erm, Greek mythology?
Research material ;D
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When I think "Mythic", practically NONE of those come to mind.
I think Biblical (Testament, for example), the labors of Heracles/Hercules, Jason and the Argonauts, Set vs Osiris, Horus-Re, the Kalevala... and, more in a fantasy vein, the Silmarillion. Wheel of Time, ok, has its moments.. but I think that's the only thing that fits.
Everything else listed is way too modern to feel mythical to me.
Erm, Greek mythology?
I kind of figured various mythologies would be a given, given the name. ;D (Actually, I just didn't think to include them in my list.)
Research material ;D
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When I think "Mythic", practically NONE of those come to mind.
I think Biblical (Testament, for example), the labors of Heracles/Hercules, Jason and the Argonauts, Set vs Osiris, Horus-Re, the Kalevala... and, more in a fantasy vein, the Silmarillion. Wheel of Time, ok, has its moments.. but I think that's the only thing that fits.
Everything else listed is way too modern to feel mythical to me.
Dresden fights creatures from those mythologies all the time. The series would be a great model for a mythic campaign. The same goes for Percy Jackson (who is the son of Poseidon after all).
Most of the anime I listed tend to be over the top, but a lot of them provide interesting examples of mythic abilities on both the protagonist's and antagonist's sides.
In Bleach, you have characters that gain the ability to see a normally invisible world of monsters and spirits, and gain the abilities to fight them.
In Negima, you have a young wizard/magus/something pushing himself to insane heights of power against seemingly overwhelming opponents. (Jack Rakan seemingly broke out of something like a maze spell through brute strength.)
Star Wars is a futuristic retelling of age-old mythological stories. Many wuxia movies are based on older stories (as is Dragonball, although only loosely).
Aang and Korra can gain great power by communing with their past lives.
Mythbusters covers a lot of what is and isn't possible IRL, but for this discussion, it makes for a nice list of things a more-than-human character might could do.
I can give more examples from any of the things I listed if you want.
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I want to be able to raise an army of the dead, a massive legion like army.
And I don't just want to raises hundreds of Skeletons and Zombies either. Add in most, if not all lower undead, Ghouls, Ghasts, Shadows, Wraiths, etc
I want to overrun the world of the living with my endless horde of the damned.
Also,
I second pretty much of all of these suggestions. More or less.
guess i should post this idea here instead of their ha!
Heres a thought assuming mythic levels are a way to go above level 20 cap and just grant abilitys and hp how about the option to allow mythic levels to allow one to gain class abilitys for characters such as multiclass characters. say i am a 1st level monk 19th level paladin and for some reason i really want the cap stone on pally i think it would be nifty if i could take a mythic level and pick that up.
Rather than derail the thread too much further with discussion on how best to burn a town to ash with spells I'll avoid going into details any more. All the other methods listed are certainly valid. I just wanted to point out that it can be done before Mythic levels.
Most towns are made of wood. You don't need to instantly burn down or set fire to every house to succeed. Fire spreads. Throw in a few trees speckled around town and it'll jump from rooftop to rooftop even faster. Even spells without a large blast radius will work assuming no one is around to stop the spread.
Hell, a dedicated arsonist with a torch and the time could burn down a whole town if he wasn't stopped. The size and strength of Razmir's spells aren't the deciding factor. There just wasn't anyone to stop him.
Anyway, to stay relevant, I'm liking a good deal of the suggestions. I dig the ideas that Irontruth hit upon with the risks of power loss mixed with hubris. I know there's going to be a mechanic where Mythic characters have a Weakness. That should probably be tied to power-loss as well instead of just being a way to bypass a character's Mythic DR or HP.
The console gamer in me wants a few things sourced for purposes of Mythic rules.
One is the Sangoku Musou/Dynasty Warriors series, particularly fighting Lu Bu/Ryufu on the highest difficulty while not using any power ups or gear. A fighter should be, at the very least, that level of badass or beyond.
Two is Asura's Wrath. Nothing conveys a Mythic or beyond monk nearly as well.
Three is Sengoku Basara. It takes a lot of things to levels of Gonzo or beyond, and not ALL Mythic games should be of that scale...but as a flavor option? HELL YES. Put your guns on, indeed.
Four is Monster Hunter, not because Pathfinder lacks for the hunting of monsters, but if you've played the game in question you find that there's a lot of bigger, better, badder fights that will live you gaping of jaw and pumping of fist should you succeed at the hunt. The first time you fight Lao Shang Lung, you get a shot of how big it REALLY is. That feeling should come with Mythic Rules. And when you reach the final zone of fighting against him, it reprises the game's opening theme, appropriately retitled as Last and Decisive Battle. If you can find a youtube vid of it, watch it.
Fifth, and final for now, is an oldie but goodie - Suikoden. It could be looked at as Kingmaker made Mythic. The storytelling is what made that particular series, along with the recruiting of an army.
But mythic isn't a place in time (in this case), it's a desription of power or skill.Research material ;D
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When I think "Mythic", practically NONE of those come to mind.
I think Biblical (Testament, for example), the labors of Heracles/Hercules, Jason and the Argonauts, Set vs Osiris, Horus-Re, the Kalevala... and, more in a fantasy vein, the Silmarillion. Wheel of Time, ok, has its moments.. but I think that's the only thing that fits.
Everything else listed is way too modern to feel mythical to me.
Yep.. modern is not entirely the right word.. although some of that still fits why I don't think of them as "Mythic".
Mythic conjures, for me, "the sagas of old", where the heroes were greater, doing greater deeds than the heroes of "today".
The listed sources are all or mostly fantasy.. but they don't have legends of their own, they are based on legends themselves.
Using the Silmarillion as an example, that's for Tolkien's Middle Earth. Aragorn may have been the inspiration for the D&D Ranger, but in the First Age of Middle Earth, there were legendary heroes who are "larger than life" to Aragorn, people whose exploits are awe-inspiring and unbelievable to people who are living the life fantasy games strive to represent.
Of the listed sources I am familiar with, many would be reasonable inspirations for "regular" Pathfinder settings, classes, abilities, and so on. But almost none of them carry that "amplified" vibe that evokes "Mythic" to me in the context of what can already be done.
If I may make a suggestion, but please clearly explain how Mythic levels relate/work with normal levels.
For example, I have 5 levels in Wizard, and 1 Mythic Archmage level. Is that considered a 6th level caster? In the purposes of effects, damage or dispelling, how is that worked out? Is he considered a 6th level arcane caster, or does the Mythic level add more than one effective caster level?
Also, I think it would be really neat if Mythic levels made it more difficult to dispel or gave bonuses in general. Like for example, I am trying to dispel Stoneskin on a 9th Wizard and 1st level Mythic Archmage. Instead of being a straight CL of 10, it would be kind of neat to see him be a 10 CL, and also add +4 to the DC because he is also Mythic.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be a +4 bonus, I’m just throwing that out there, but just something to differentiate having one level of Mythic and just being a 10th CL.
Yep.. modern is not entirely the right word.. although some of that still fits why I don't think of them as "Mythic".Mythic conjures, for me, "the sagas of old", where the heroes were greater, doing greater deeds than the heroes of "today".
The listed sources are all or mostly fantasy.. but they don't have legends of their own, they are based on legends themselves.
Using the Silmarillion as an example, that's for Tolkien's Middle Earth. Aragorn may have been the inspiration for the D&D Ranger, but in the First Age of Middle Earth, there were legendary heroes who are "larger than life" to Aragorn, people whose exploits are awe-inspiring and unbelievable to people who are living the life fantasy games strive to represent.
Of the listed sources I am familiar with, many would be reasonable inspirations for "regular" Pathfinder settings, classes, abilities, and so on. But almost none of them carry that "amplified" vibe that evokes "Mythic" to me in the context of what can already be done.
You should read Dresden Files. This is actually addressed in the books. They're told from a first person perspective and his opinion of himself is not usually all that great. But he bumps into other characters that treat him like some mythical figure, fairly appropriately actually even if he doesn't get it.
You should probably also watch Hare and Guu. Everyone in the series is a normal human, except for Guu. It's a good example of what a high level character could do to mess around with a bunch of low level characters. (Also, it's a lot of fun.) I don't think it's based on any existing mythology.
Samurai Jack is an interesting case because he was trained by all of those mythical cultures, but then got flung into the future where he becomes a mythical hero for everyone else. (One episode was about children telling stories of his fights with Aku.)
Negima (in the Negi vs Jack Rakan fight, for example) is a good example of a high level caster going beyond the usual limits, which sounds a lot like the description of mythic points powering up spells. Almost no one in that story believes what he's been able to accomplish. Again, I don't know of any existing mythology used as a base for that story.