Take the DM aside and tell him exactly what it means to your daughter. She is still young and having some one crap on her PC in that way sucks. Especially if the DM was indeed "making her take possession". If the DM is an adult he should understand and find a quick way to get rid of it and a cool quest for atonement that ends in a decent reward.
Design Manager
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So first off, your GM is a jerk. No equivocation, just a flat out jerk.
Secondly, exactly what has the sword forced her to do?
The paladin's code says:
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
If the sword has been controlling her, she a) Shouldn't be suffering alignment shifts since she's not choosing to commit chaotic acts and b)cannot be considered to have willingly commited an evil act and violated her code that way.
My advice is to ask the DM to let her get rid of the sword, atone,and reclaim her alignment/paladinhood.
If he won't, find out why. If he just doesn't like paladins, unfortunately, you might have find a new DM, because in my opinion he's just being a jerk at that point.
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You should have a conversation with the GM. If the sword was a planned addition to the story, and your daughter just happened to be the one to grab it, then you should use it as a RP opportunity and work back towards LG, however you need to do that. If, on the other hand, it was something he added (and all but forced on the Paladin), then that's a different conversation entirely.
As far as picking on the Paladin in general...
This will never change. Some people have to drag down the good guy. If they can't do it legitimately, they'll do it by fiat. This happens in real life, too.
Edit: Just saw this.
Yes he "made her take possesion". We came across a "grave knight" and the knight forced her to take the weapon and kill him. She in no way could have avoided this.
Find a new DM.
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To me, that honestly does sound like the GM picking on the Paladin. If he MADE her take it, then that does sound like a jerk move.
Honestly, I'm not a big fan of GMs usurping PC control, or forcing decisions outside of Dominate Person.
Your GM is not necessarily a jerk although he might be insensitive by not immediately suggesting solutions to a child. Your GM used a plot device. This is easy to fix. An Atonement spell fixes this up right quick.
First: Remove Curse to get rid of the sword. No more recurrance of the alignment change. Cost per attempt is 3*5*10gp = 150gp
Second: Atonement spell. Cost: 5*9*10+500/10 = 350+50 = 400gp if you need an NPC to cast it. Otherwise free. This is specifically the use to Reverse Magical Alignment Change.
Yes, this sucks. But it is not a permanent problem. There is no quest required. Go to the proper cleric, pay your money.
Honestly, this is no different than death. Death sucks too. Pay your money, not dead anymore. :)
BTW, in my game there was an item that cursed someone with Chaotic Neutral alignment. I did not place it in the AP I am running, the Writers did. The Paladin in my group lucked out that she did not take that item for herself (a rogue did instead).
- Gauss
How old is the GM? Is the GM also related to you and your daughter?
If your daughter's paladin was forced into acting some way, her paladin should not lose paladin powers. So either the GM is ignorant of the rules or is playing by some other rules of his own.
Others have suggested you talk to the GM. If that doesn't change anything, then have your daughter roll up a new character of another class that can't lose powers due to GM fiat. If she doesn't want to do that, then you'll have to decide whether to find another game or keep playing this one.
I'm trying real hard to be charitable to the GM here...
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Your GM is NOT a jerk although He might be insensitive by not immediately suggesting solutions to a child. Your GM used a plot device. This is easy to fix. An Atonement spell fixes this up right quick.
First: Remove Curse to get rid of the sword. No more recurrance of the alignment change. Cost per attempt is 3*5*10gp = 150gp
Second: Atonement spell. Cost: 5*9*10+500/10 = 350+50 = 400gp if you need an NPC to cast it. Otherwise free. This is specifically the use to Reverse Magical Alignment Change.
Yes, this sucks. But it is not a permanent problem. There is no quest required. Go to the proper cleric, pay your money.
Honestly, this is no different than death. Death sucks too. Pay your money, not dead anymore. :)
BTW, in my game there was an item that cursed someone with Chaotic Neutral alignment. I did not place it in the AP I am running, the Writers did. The Paladin in my group lucked out that she did not take that item for herself (a rogue did instead).
- Gauss
I have to disagree with you here Gauss. Using GM fiat to force someones character into a situation where they lose their class abilities is a jerk move. There is NO rule about intelligent items forcing Alignment shifts(although there are a few specialized and rare items out there that can cause it), and unless this graveknight actually grappled her, disarmed her, and then forced the weapon into her hands, no way she should have been forced to take possession of the item in the first place. Just for reference and the furtherance of this conversation, I've included alignment and Intelligent weapon references here:
A creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil, or chaotic evil.
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
All creatures have an alignment. Alignment determines the effectiveness of some spells and magic items.
Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior. Dogs may be obedient and cats free-spirited, but they do not have the moral capacity to be truly lawful or chaotic.
Good Versus Evil
Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.
Law Versus Chaos
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, self-righteousness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has some respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is generally honest, but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.
Alignment Steps
Occasionally the rules refer to “steps” when dealing with alignment. In this case, “steps” refers to the number of alignment shifts between the two alignments, as shown on the following diagram. Note that diagonal “steps” count as two steps. For example, a lawful neutral character is one step away from a lawful good alignment, and three steps away from a chaotic evil alignment. A cleric's alignment must be within one step of the alignment of her deity.
Lawful Neutral Chaotic
Good Lawful Good Neutral Good Chaotic Good
Neutral Lawful Neutral Neutral Chaotic Neutral
Evil Lawful Evil Neutral Evil Chaotic Evil
The Nine Alignments
Nine distinct alignments define the possible combinations of the lawful-chaotic axis with the good-evil axis. Each description below depicts a typical character of that alignment. Remember that individuals vary from this norm, and that a given character may act more or less in accord with his alignment from day to day. Use these descriptions as guidelines, not as scripts.
The first six alignments, lawful good through chaotic neutral, are standard alignments for player characters. The three evil alignments are usually for monsters and villains. With the GM's permission, a player may assign an evil alignment to his PC, but such characters are often a source of disruption and conflict with good and neutral party members. GMs are encouraged to carefully consider how evil PCs might affect the campaign before allowing them.
Lawful Good: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
Lawful good combines honor with compassion.
Neutral Good: A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them.
Neutral good means doing what is good and right without bias for or against order.
Chaotic Good: A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he's kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.
Chaotic good combines a good heart with a free spirit.
Lawful Neutral: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.
Lawful neutral means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.
Neutral: A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn't feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos (and thus neutral is sometimes called “true neutral”). Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character probably thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she's not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.
Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.
Neutral means you act naturally in any situation, without prejudice or compulsion.
Chaotic Neutral: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those others suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as he is to cross it.
Chaotic neutral represents freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.
Lawful Evil: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.
This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.
Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.
Lawful evil represents methodical, intentional, and organized evil.
Neutral Evil: A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusions that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn't have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.
Neutral evil represents pure evil without honor and without variation.
Chaotic Evil: A chaotic evil character does what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are likely to be poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.
Chaotic evil represents the destruction not only of beauty and life, but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.
Changing Alignments
Alignment is a tool, a convenient shorthand you can use to summarize the general attitude of an NPC, region, religion, organization, monster, or even magic item.
Certain character classes in Classes list repercussions for those who don't adhere to a specific alignment, and some spells and magic items have different effects on targets depending on alignment, but beyond that it's generally not necessary to worry too much about whether someone is behaving differently from his stated alignment. In the end, the Game Master is the one who gets to decide if something's in accordance with its indicated alignment, based on the descriptions given previously and his own opinion and interpretation—the only thing the GM needs to strive for is to be consistent as to what constitutes the difference between alignments like chaotic neutral and chaotic evil. There's no hard and fast mechanic by which you can measure alignment—unlike hit points or skill ranks or Armor Class, alignment is solely a label the GM controls.
It's best to let players play their characters as they want. If a player is roleplaying in a way that you, as the GM, think doesn't fit his alignment, let him know that he's acting out of alignment and tell him why—but do so in a friendly manner. If a character wants to change his alignment, let him—in most cases, this should amount to little more than a change of personality, or in some cases, no change at all if the alignment change was more of an adjustment to more accurately summarize how a player, in your opinion, is portraying his character. In some cases, changing alignments can impact a character's abilities—see the class write-ups in Classes for details. An atonement spell may be necessary to repair damage done by alignment changes arising from involuntary sources or momentary lapses in personality.
Players who frequently have their characters change alignment should in all likelihood be playing chaotic neutral characters.
Ego is a measure of the total power and force of personality that an item possesses. An item's Ego score is the sum of all of its Ego modifiers plus an additional bonus for the cost of the base magic item (excluding the cost of all of the intelligent item enhancements). An item's Ego score helps determine whether the item or the character is dominant in their relationship, as detailed below.
Base Magic Item Value Ego Modifier
Up to 1,000 gp —
1,001 gp to 5,000 gp +1
5,001 gp to 10,000 gp +2
10,001 gp to 20,000 gp +3
20,001 gp to 50,000 gp +4
50,001 gp to 100,000 gp +6
100,001 gp to 200,000 gp +8
200,001 gp and higher +12
Items against Characters
When an item has an Ego of its own, it has a will of its own. The item is absolutely true to its alignment. If the character who possesses the item is not true to that alignment's goals or the item's special purpose, personality conflict—item against character—results. Similarly, any item with an Ego score of 20 or higher always considers itself superior to any character, and a personality conflict results if the possessor does not always agree with the item.
When a personality conflict occurs, the possessor must make a Will saving throw (DC = item's Ego). If the possessor succeeds, she is dominant. If she fails, the item is dominant. Dominance lasts for 1 day or until a critical situation occurs (such as a major battle, a serious threat to either the item or the character, and so on). Should an item gain dominance, it resists the character's desires and demands concessions such as any of the following:
•Removal of associates or items whose alignment or personality is distasteful to the item.
•The character divesting herself of all other magic items or items of a certain type.
•Obedience from the character so the item can direct where they go for its own purposes.
•Immediate seeking out and slaying of creatures hateful to the item.
•Magical protections and devices to safeguard the item from molestation when it is not in use.
•That the character carry the item with her on all occasions.
•That the character relinquish the item to a more suitable possessor due to alignment differences or conduct.
In extreme circumstances, the item can resort to even harsher measures, such as the following:
•Force its possessor into combat.
•Refuse to strike opponents.
•Strike at its wielder or her associates.
•Force its possessor to surrender to an opponent.
•Cause itself to drop from the character's grasp.
Naturally, such actions are unlikely when harmony reigns between the character's and item's alignments or when their purposes and personalities are well matched. Even so, an item might wish to have a lesser character possess it in order to easily establish and maintain dominance over him, or a higher-level possessor so as to better accomplish its goals.
All magic items with personalities desire to play an important role in whatever activity is under way, particularly combat. Such items are natural rivals, even with others of the same alignment. No intelligent item wants to share its wielder with others. An intelligent item is aware of the presence of any other intelligent item within 60 feet, and most intelligent items try their best to mislead or distract their host so that she ignores or destroys the rival. Of course, alignment might change this sort of behavior.
Items with personalities are never totally controlled or silenced by the characters that possess them, even though they may never successfully control their possessors. They may be powerless to force their demands, but most remain undaunted and continue to air their wishes and demands.
Is the sword a plot device or just a random item? If it is important to the story and the alignment shift is temporary have your daughter try to stick it out. If its just an item to mess with paladin because the gm doesnt like paladins leave the group. Robbing someone of their class features for no good reason is not cool and a sure sign of a terrible gm.
Is the gm a friend or just a guy from the LGS that runs your game? If he is a friend ask him to take it a little easier as she is new and this is a bonding experience for you and her. If hes just some random guy leave the group. Playing in a bad game is not in fact better than not playing at all.
I dont know the details but if its a matter of lack of pathfinder games locally try finding an online game, there are many out there. As you said it gets harder to spend time with kids as they get older, so doing anything you can to extend that time is worth more than a particular group.
If nothing else you could always try running a game with her and some of her friends. Early teens is a prime time to get kids hooked on rpgs afterall.
Your GM used a plot device.
If the GM declared that you could not use any of your fighter's bonus feats and weapon/armor training, would it be a "plot device"?
If the GM declared that your cleric's god suddenly died, and you could no longer cast spells, would it be a "plot device"?
If the GM sovereign glued a metal shield to your druid's hand between game sessions, would that be a "plot device"?
If a paladin falls because she role plays an evil act (or to a lesser extent repeatedly acts in a chaotic manner), then that is a plot device. It sounds like the GM just declared that her alignment changed and she lost her abilities (yes, he wrapped a little bit of story around it).
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Thanks for all the help. I fully intend on helping her resolve this issue. It may be a learning expierience for her and thus a good thing. This was an attack on paladins by the GM. If it were me ....no big deal but why do it to a new player?
Yeah, it was a jerk move. Also remember, forced actions don't cause alignment shifts or code violations, as stated right in the book, so unless this is a cursed sword that for some mysterious reason curses whomever holds it to be Neutral Good, your GM isn't even following the rules. If it is a cursed sword that inexplicably changes its wielder to NG, get a Remove Curse cast and you're good to go.
Sslarn:
Intelligent items no, cursed items yes. Cursed Items may or may not have saving throws. An intelligent weapon can be cursed with a drawback. Drawbacks have a save DC of 10+caster level. Alignment change is listed as a drawback. It should have allowed for a save.
Granted, it is entirely possible the GM is playing fast and loose with the rules. But we have no information on how closely or not this group follows the rules.
As for 'forcing' a person to take an item and use it there are a number of ways to do that but there should be a saving throw for most of them unless he just plain tricked the person into taking the item. Here catch! comes to mind.
Note: As you were replying to my message I toned down the wording from 'NOT a jerk' to not necessarily a jerk. Oh well :)
- Gauss
If the GM declared that you could not use any of your fighter's bonus feats and weapon/armor training, would it be a "plot device"?
If the GM declared that your cleric's god suddenly died, and you could no longer cast spells, would it be a "plot device"?
If the GM sovereign glued a metal shield to your druid's hand between game sessions, would that be a "plot device"?
In all of these cases, yes, it's possible. The issue as I see it is whether the player trusts the DM enough to roll with it. A mature, experienced player might, but a less experience player may not. A good DM would have the sense to judge whether or not his players could deal with what would appear to be an overt dick move.
Ah, welcome to the railroad, it's ran by jerks. The Crusader has the most sound advice in his first post: find a new GM.
Though if you want to be stubborn about this, many people would, pull the GM aside and ask him what he intends on going with this, because if the answer is "nowhere" inform him that he should be ashamed of himself, that you will inform the rest of the group of his actions, and that you intend on finding a nicer group.
I take it your GM is an "adult"? And knows that this is your 14 year old daughter's first game?
Your GM is a jerk. No question about it. Find a new GM.
Sslarn:
CRB p538 on 'drawbacks' % number 50-51 is 'Character's alignment changes.' While drawbacks are not permanent more powerful curses are. Alignment change curses have a long history in D&D.
- Gauss
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Sslarn:
Intelligent items no, cursed items yes. Cursed Items may or may not have saving throws. An intelligent weapon can be cursed with a drawback. Drawbacks have a save DC of 10+caster level. Alignment change is listed as a drawback. It should have allowed for a save.
Granted, it is entirely possible the GM is playing fast and loose with the rules. But we have no information on how closely or not this group follows the rules.
As for 'forcing' a person to take an item and use it there are a number of ways to do that but there should be a saving throw for most of them unless he just plain tricked the person into taking the item. Here catch! comes to mind.
Note: As you were replying to my message I toned down the wording from 'NOT a jerk' to not necessarily a jerk. Oh well :)
- Gauss
You'll note I did account for Curses in my statement :)
Remove Curse is an easy fix, the more important question is why the Neutral Good Graveknight shoved a cursed sword into her hands and somehow "forced" her to kill him. It seems pretty obvious in context that the GM is trying to say.... I'm not exactly sure what. Is there more to this story? Because destroying an undead creature like a graveknight isn't an evil act. So, unless we're missing some important piece of information, the only option is that the blade was cursed and changes its wielders alignment, which doesn't make any sense at all in the context of the events that took place. It sounds more like a GM with poor knowledge of the PF rules being a jerk to a young girl because he has it in for Paladins.
Gauss: D&D also has a long history of hating it's players, see: the various modules, the ridiculous limitations on character creation, and all of the bad options. This isn't a model you want to follow all things told and Pathfinder has gotten rid of the vast majority of that model, though it still has a handful of bad options.
Honestly, folks. I find that it is presumptuous of us to automatically assume the GM has the worst of intentions based on what the scanty evidence is. It IS possible the GM is a jerk. Maybe he doesn't like Paladins or children in his games. But, it is also possible the GM tried to be helpful afterwards and it was not well received.
Note: I am not saying the OP is misunderstanding the situation. I am saying we do not know. We were not there.
Why dont we keep the advice a bit more constructive than 'he is a jerk and get out'. I see that response way too often on these boards.
- Gauss
Blue Star: PF still has cursed items that change alignment that they have included in their APs. I was not commenting on the entire system, just alignment change cursed items.
- Gauss
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To me, that honestly does sound like the GM picking on the Paladin. If he MADE her take it, then that does sound like a jerk move.
Honestly, I'm not a big fan of GMs usurping PC control, or forcing decisions outside of Dominate Person.
Nah, the GM wasn't a jerk to the Paladin.
The GM was a jerk to the 14-year old kid.
The jerk.
Sslarn: Another instance of our messages crossing each other. :)
Edit: I saw nothing about a Neutral Good Graveknight. A Graveknight yes, NG no. Since Paizo's stance is all undead are evil I assume the graveknight is evil also.
- Gauss
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It sounds more like a GM with poor knowledge of the PF rules being a jerk to a young girl because he has it in for Paladins.
This is it precisely. The rules are not the main point here.
The point is:
1. The game is run by an 'adult'.
2. The player is a little girl (being one of the other players' daughters should be indicative of the age difference).
3. The player is new.
When me and my mates play with some of our older friends' kids, we make concessions for them. We set them up for moments of awesome. We let them take more than their share of the limelight and make sure they have fun. Ok, so we swing to the other extreme, and I'm not saying every game with younger players means that other players needs to coddle them (well, the kids we played with were around 6-10, so some coddling was ok IMO).
But the ultimate point is that the GM in the OP was in control, and he took a little girl's toy and he stepped on it.
Dick. Move.
Honestly, folks. I find that it is presumptuous of us to automatically assume the GM has the worst of intentions based on what the scanty evidence. It IS possible the GM is a jerk. Maybe he doesn't like Paladins or children in his games. But, it is also possible the GM tried to be helpful afterwards and it was not well received.
Note: I am not saying the OP is misunderstanding the situation. I am saying we do not know. We were not there.
Why dont we keep the advice a bit more constructive than 'he is a jerk and get out'. I see that response way too often on these boards.
- Gauss
I disagree, for several reasons: First and foremost he did it to a new player. Second he didn't bother asking the new player if he could make this a part of a story arc, which is probably the only way to go about it. Finally he did it to a teenage girl, someone not likely to fight back.
If the GM didn't like paladins or children, he should have mentioned it before hand, instead of handling it in the most passive-aggressive way possible.
Typically speaking the smartest response in situations akin to this is to leave.
Blue Star: Like I said, we do not know. We were not there. Anyhow, it appears that I am in the minority here. My suggestions to correct the problem have been stated. I just think that calling the GM a jerk and calls for finding a different game are not usually productive. Working on the problem with the GM is often more productive.
- Gauss
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This really pisses me off because she has been following the rules of paladinship to the letter and almost came to tears when she found out about the sword and what it did to her. I really hoped that playing this game would bring us closer together she is 14 and getting older every day and spending time with dad is getting less apealing.
Mate, I think you've got your priorities right and you've got my respect for that. Now you need to act on it. Tell the GM that the situation needs to be rectified in the next game. If he refuses, find a new game group. Heck, run a solo adventure for your daughter, and see if you can find people to join. Let her invite her friends to join, whether from school or around the neighbourhood.
And mate, you tell your daughter that it was not her fault. Tell her that you will set things right because you are her father. And then you do it, because being a hero to your daughter is way more important than being a hero, or even a god, in a make-belief game.
Hope you and your daughter have a great time bonding, mate. =)
The GM is a dick. Call him on it. Ask if being a dick to a 14year old girl is easier tan being a dick to a grown man. If he doesn't own up, leave and start your own group.
This hobby is too precious to us to have this dick ruining it for he next generation of player.
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Honestly, folks. I find that it is presumptuous of us to automatically assume the GM has the worst of intentions based on what the scanty evidence. It IS possible the GM is a jerk. Maybe he doesn't like Paladins or children in his games. But, it is also possible the GM tried to be helpful afterwards and it was not well received.
Note: I am not saying the OP is misunderstanding the situation. I am saying we do not know. We were not there.
Why dont we keep the advice a bit more constructive than 'he is a jerk and get out'. I see that response way too often on these boards.
- Gauss
Sorry to resort so quickly to the finger-pointing and name calling Gauss, but as I mentioned, unless the OP is leaving out some relevant details, it's hard not to see this as much other than a jerk move. The Cursed Item theory is certainly possible, but again, wouldn't that have made the graveknight Neutral Good and precluded the whole scenario? I'm also maybe a little prejudiced here having seen far too many GM's try to use the Paladin code to pick apart what they view as an OP class. Nor am I a big fan of GM's who railroad characters into actions they wouldn't have otherwise taken and then call it a "plot device".
Sslarn:
I agree that your conclusion is probably the accurate one. It is just not the only conclusion. I usually try to offer advice that is more universal and not predicated upon assumptions.
Honestly, I guess it just rubs me raw when this kind of backlash occurs when none of us were there. None of us know what really happened. We all assume that we have the facts but that is usually not the case.
Instead of jumping to conclusions we should make constructive suggestions and THEN if the GM does not play nice then we start offering the 'off with his head' type of suggestions. A step is being skipped.
BTW, one of my players once came on here and anonymously posted as to an issue they had with me. Many people jumped on the 'find a new GM' bandwagon there too. My player wondered why they did so when the player did not indicate that big a problem.
- Gauss
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Sometimes there are folk that just do not have that..empathy compassion..whatever. I find it to be a jerk move to a younger new player. But, perhaps the fellow doesn't even realize how it is a jerk move.
...
I started to post all sorts of examples...but they could all be taken out of context and would only muddy the water.
Give the fellow a chance, meet with him, talk to him, explain your viewpoint. Listen to his expanation. If there is no resolution, play RPG's with your daughter in a different group.
Most groups I have been a part of are very welcoming of younger members.
Heck, I love to see a younger player, it means my hobby will continue.
Greg
almost came to tears
There is no excuse for this in any game. No "plot device" mitigates this.
Edit: To avoid any possible misunderstanding - I mean the GM has no excuse.
skipped.
BTW, one of my players once came on here and anonymously posted as to an issue they had with me. Many people jumped on the 'find a new GM' bandwagon there too. My player wondered why they did so when the player did not indicate that big a problem.
- Gauss
Does that mean you have a slot open in your game? It isn't near Florida is it? Got a gripplis ninja in need of a home. :P
Greg
Yubein: Did the GM ask you or your daughter if he could do this?
I ask so that it can be more official, rather than "Logic dictates that if the father is mad, then the GM didn't ask, because people don't get angry if they've been asked. Generally speaking, people don't ask to do something, get turned down, and then do it anyway."
Keep in mind: not asking is, in fact, a very jerk-ish thing to do. The GM is not allowing the player to play the character they want to play, despite it being completely reasonable for the game in question.
The Crusader: I am not defending the GM in question. As I said we were not there. However, alot of us are geeks. Geeks are not always known for understanding other people's emotions. This could have easily been an oversight and the GM might have underestimated of the girl's reactions. By the time the GM did this he would have been unable to back out readily.
Example: I put in something into the game thinking itll be cool. It winds up really upsetting a player instead. Ooops. Now I am trying to fix things.
Again, I am just putting out possibilities. I am not stating any of them are true or even highly probable. We just do not know.
- Gauss
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Sorry Greg, I am nowhere near florida. I will never live near florida, you would have to kill me in order to get my corpse there.
BTW, did I mention I hate humidity? No? here: I HATE humidity. :D
- Gauss
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Design Manager
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@Gauss
I agree that "Find a new GM" is a knee-jerk reaction and probably not the correct course here. I laid out some rules background to challenge the GM's (allegedly) poor rulings, several others suggested taking the GM aside for a quiet chat (I support those who made this suggestion without also suggesting bringing along a blunt object).
I'm going to back you on this one Gauss, because even if the reality was that the GM was a complete jerk in this instance and took sadistic pleasure in making a young girl cry, we should at least try to lead him to redemption. At least one try. There's few enough people willing to GM that if you can rehabilitate one instead of shunting him aside, it's probably worth the effort.
On second thought, if he was trying to make a young girl cry, he's probably not worth the effort. If he's just generally a jerk, either because he hasn't had a lot of experience GM'ing and is missing the point, or because his GM was a jerk, it's probably worth the effort.
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Sorry Greg, I am nowhere near florida. I will never live near florida, you would have to kill me in order to get my corpse there.
BTW, did I mention I hate humidity? No? here: I HATE humidity. :D
- Gauss
How about Washington? Our Jade Regent Campaign just lost half its players with the new semester coming up (Damn college age young uns!) and I need my gaming fix. "Need Work. Will Unarmed Strike for Food."
Sslarn: I agree with your second thought. I just think it is not automatically true. :)
As my earlier post on geeks stated. GMs do not always understand the emotional repercussions of our decisions. Even GMs that do can get swamped behind the GM screen and when that happens tunnel vision is often what occurs. When a GM has tunnel vision people's emotions are usually the first casualty.
- Gauss
Not far from there Sslarn: Boise Idaho.
- Gauss
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GM: "Don't worry! It's fixable, and it'll be a fun adventure too!"
One out of character statement of reassurance by the GM, and the dad never posts here. So, I'm not sure the inadvertent "oops, thought this would be cool" argument really holds water.
You're right, of course, that we weren't there, and we only have the father's side of the story. But, based on what we know, this was a railroad (which I hate) against a new player (which makes it worse) who is very young (which makes it just abominable) damaging the quality time she can spend with her father (humidity-level vile).
...What does humidity-level vile even mean?
The Crusader: I bow to your awesome reference of the vileness of humidity. :)
As for the oops, like I said. Some GMs get tunnel vision. Some GMs are engineers and we all know what kind of social skills engineers have. *ducks* Heheheh
Honestly, I hope the OP is able to salvage this. I hope that if he can he can patch it up between the daughter and the GM. I hope that if he cannot they find another game to play in. But, the first step for me is always 'can it be fixed?' before the step of 'can we get a new one?'. Perhaps it is the technician side of me.
- Gauss
Blue Star: The Crusader had noted how I utterly hate humidity and was providing an analogy he thought I would understand. Not that I needed it to understand but it was amusing all the same.
- Gauss
...Fair enough.
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Jerk DMs... They are the bane of Paladins.
They cause more problem to these holy warriors than any demon lord ever could dream of.
It appears many people forget that the god that grant powers to paladins are GOOD too. They are not a&&$+%+s waiting impatiently to say "Gotcha!!!" as soon as the Paladin makes a mistake or commits the slightest of transgressions.
Gotta agree with Gauss here.
I admit, the likely scenario is that "GM hates paladins" is what's going on. But the reality of the situation is that we got a non-impartial side of the story.
There is a chance that a father is over-reacting to something that initially upset his daughter.
Again, less likely, but possible. Good enough to take two steps back before slamming this GM we haven't met or heard from.