|
Here is a question for rule gurus. Timing of events following core PFRPG rules.
Grace - spell
School abjuration; Level cleric/oracle 2, paladin 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V
EFFECT
Range personal
Targets you
Duration See text
DESCRIPTION
Until the end of your turn, your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Okay, a character moves an unknowingly provokes an AoO (free action) from a creature. Can the character use a swift action to interrupt the AoO to cast Grace which would in turn mean the creatures AoO is cancelled?
I use cancelled as a lack of a better word... Interrupt maybe better but that would be too many interrupts! My logic is as the character moves the creature responses to movement to attack but the swift action would allow Grace to occur meaning the movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Or is my logic too 'stack' orientated?
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
You would not be able to use a Swift action to "interrupt" an attack of opportunity.
Brain in a Jar is correct.
If they were to write a spell to allow what you describe, the casting time would have to be "immediate" rather than "swift".
|
|
I understand that AoO us a free action and and interrupts 'normal' flow if actions but a swift action is a free action as well. A free action can be used at anytime where legal, as to say swift action during PC's turn. So a stack like situation occurs of free actions... Where the last stated free action occurs before others take effect... That resolving free effects in reverse order to what was announced.
Or does this,
"
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."
Does this mean that if an AoO is provoked no one can use a free action in response? Effectively, freezing the game until AoO is resolved?
Yes. You resolve the attack of opportunity then continue with the turn. It doesn't "stack" as you think.
It goes like this:
1. Player A moves provoking an AoO from an Ogre.
2. Ogre resolves AoO.
3. Player A finishes turn.
You could only use an immediate action to alter anything when it is not your turn.
Aye, free actions can technically be done at any time, but they do not interrupt other actions. That ability is limited to AoO's and immediate actions, like a Feather Fall or Improved Counterspell.
Otherwise you'd get people trying to abuse the rules making rushed taunts, antagonize's, intimidate, diplomacy and bluff checks in the middle of other people's actions, to beat them to the punch with 'free actions' from talking.
==Aelryinth
I believe if the spell were intended to be used to interrupt AoO then they would have made it an immediate (ala feather fall) rather than a Swift.
But if you know you are going to move why not cast then move?
|
|
Brain in a Jar is correct.
If they were to write a spell to allow what you describe, the casting time would have to be "immediate" rather than "swift".
Sorry Blueluck but you are incorrect. An immediate action is a free action that occurs in someone else's turn. A swift action is a free action that occurs in the PC's turn. One one immediate or swift can effectively occur from PC's turn to the next. An immediate actionyse means that a pc can not use a swift action in his next turn.
Essential swift and immediate are the same type of action with swift action describing an immediate action taken during a PC's turn.
|
|
Just to further clarify I will c&p from the SRD
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Just to clear swift actions are identical to immediate actions.
Brain in a Jar is correct.
If they were to write a spell to allow what you describe, the casting time would have to be "immediate" rather than "swift".
Sorry Blueluck but you are incorrect. An immediate action is a free action that occurs in someone else's turn. A swift action is a free action that occurs in the PC's turn. One one immediate or swift can effectively occur from PC's turn to the next. An immediate actionyse means that a pc can not use a swift action in his next turn.
Essential swift and immediate are the same type of action with swift action describing an immediate action taken during a PC's turn.
First off swift and immediate actions are not free actions. They are just like one.
Secondly how is he wrong?
If Grace was supposed to work the way you thought it did (being used in response to an AoO) then it would have to be an immediate action.
a character moves an unknowingly provokes an AoO (free action)
Making an Attack of Opportunity is not a free action.
A free action can be used at anytime where legal, as to say swift action during PC's turn.
A free action can only be taken on your turn, unless the specific action states otherwise (such as Speaking).
A swift action is not a free action.
An immediate action is a free action that occurs in someone else's turn. A swift action is a free action that occurs in the PC's turn.
Neither of those are free actions.
Just to further clarify I will c&p from the SRD
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Just to clear swift actions are identical to immediate actions.
The only part that they are identical is that you can only use 1 swift or immediate per round. Otherwise they are different:
Swift: On your turn.
Immediate: Whenever.
|
|
Aye, free actions can technically be done at any time, but they do not interrupt other actions. That ability is limited to AoO's and immediate actions, like a Feather Fall or Improved Counterspell.
Otherwise you'd get people trying to abuse the rules making rushed taunts, antagonize's, intimidate, diplomacy and bluff checks in the middle of other people's actions, to beat them to the punch with 'free actions' from talking.
==Aelryinth
I am not quite following the abuse here most of those effects you mention have added effect (free action) occur as part of a standard or move action.
I play a house rule that character talk is limited to one sentence to be an immediate action. I also enforce common courteous behavior and not allow players to unjustly interrupt other players turn.
Just to clear swift actions are identical to immediate actions.
While an immediate action is "Much like a swift action," it's not identical.
You can perform an immediate action even if it's not your turn, which is not the case with swift actions.
And regardless, you can't take a swift action after provoking an attack of opportunity but before the AoO is resolved.
"An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn"
Once you provoke the AoO by moving, it's too late to do anything else until the AoO is resolved.
A Quickened spell does not provoke AoO. Since that is just a normal spell cast as a swift action, I believe spells whose casting time is a swift action do not provoke AoO either.
|
|
Just posting this up real quick:
"Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."
So when that AoO is occurring, it is effectively not your turn, which is why the spell would require an immediate action to be used in the way you described.
Also, there is not a rule that says you can take free actions at any time; what the rules say is:
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
Cease Concentration on Spell
You can stop concentrating on a spell as a free action.
Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.
Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
All the rules on free actions say is that speaking is generally a free action that can be taken even when it's not your turn. They don't open up any other actions as being eligible to be taken on any turn other than your own. Only limited speech and immediate actions do that.
A Quickened spell does not provoke AoO. Since that is just a normal spell cast as a swift action, I believe spells whose casting time is a swift action do not provoke AoO either.
That doesn't really have anything to do with the topic. The question was "Can i cast Grace as a swift action to interrupt an AoO from movement.?"
|
|
First off swift and immediate actions are not free actions. They are just like one.
They are free in the sense that they take no time.
Secondly how is he wrong?
If Grace was supposed to work the way you thought it did (being used in response to an AoO) then it would have to be an immediate action.
I did not think that an AoO changed whose turn it was.
I did not think that an AoO changed whose turn it was.
It interrupts the normal flow of actions in the round. You don't get to act until the AoO is resolved, after which you can continue with your turn.
First off swift and immediate actions are not free actions. They are just like one.
They are free in the sense that they take no time.
I did not think that an AoO changed whose turn it was.
Secondly how is he wrong?
If Grace was supposed to work the way you thought it did (being used in response to an AoO) then it would have to be an immediate action.
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
It says you resolve the AoO then continue with the character's turn. Which means until the AoO is resolved it it no longer your turn.
Also you can use an immediate action at any time your turn or not.
|
|
Just to clear swift actions are identical to immediate actions.While an immediate action is "Much like a swift action," it's not identical.
You can perform an immediate action even if it's not your turn, which is not the case with swift actions.
You have taken my statement out if context. I clearly demonstrated my understanding of these actions -I quoted the SRD for goodness sake. :)
My statement was merely presenting a less verbose sentence.And regardless, you can't take a swift action after provoking an attack of opportunity but before the AoO is resolved.
"An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn"
Once you provoke the AoO by moving, it's too late to do anything else until the AoO is resolved.
This is what I needed clarifying on. Others have also added that AoO is not a free action. This makes sense to me now. AoO occurs and is resolved before anything else.
|
|
So when that AoO is occurring, it is effectively not your turn, which is why the spell would require an immediate action to be used in the way you described.
From what I now gather, this is not true. AoO is not an action it occurs during another players turn, hence interrupts the players turn to become part of the players turn.
|
|
I believe if the spell were intended to be used to interrupt AoO then they would have made it an immediate (ala feather fall) rather than a Swift.
I think we established in this thread that this is not correct.
But if you know you are going to move why not cast then move?
This is were in character and out if character knowledge kicks in. In character, if the pc does not know the creature has an AoO - first time PC encounters monster.
I believe if the spell were intended to be used to interrupt AoO then they would have made it an immediate (ala feather fall) rather than a Swift.
I think we established in this thread that this is not correct.
I think we can respectfully agree to disagree on this point.
This is were in character and out if character knowledge kicks in. In character, if the pc does not know the creature has an AoO - first time PC encounters monster.
But if you know you are going to move why not cast then move?
Thank you for the clarification.
Question. Did this come up in game or is this just a preemptive question? If it came up in game how did your GM rule it?
That doesn't really have anything to do with the topic. The question was "Can i cast Grace as a swift action to interrupt an AoO from movement.?"A Quickened spell does not provoke AoO. Since that is just a normal spell cast as a swift action, I believe spells whose casting time is a swift action do not provoke AoO either.
Ah... My bad, I misread the 1st post. For some reason I thought it was something like "Can I cast Grace whithout provoking AoO"... Tsc, I blame sleep deprivation and lack of caffeine.
Anyway. I don't think he can do that, unless he prepared an action to cast the spell as soon as someone tries to attack him, in which case, I don't know what would hapen first. And why not simply cast the spell before moving?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Masika:
I see your logic that a swift action can occur at any point during your turn you are trying to insert a swift action into the middle of a current action (in this case a movement).
Actions are discrete.
What you are trying to do is insert a swift action into the middle of a move action. By the rules you cannot do this. If you could insert an action into the middle of another action we would not have need for feats like Spring attack or Shot on the run.
Immediate actions work a bit differently. They are interrupts.
AoOs are similar in that they are interrupts.
So the sequence is as follows:
You: Movement (provoking AoO)
Enemy: Attack of Opportunity
You: Continue movement
Except for an immediate action (or certain feats) you cannot insert another action into the midst of an existing action.
- Gauss
|
|
@mage evolving
I was playing a tasty Aasimar Cl/Pl/IC whilst moving towards a nasty plant creature in the worlds largest dungeon where Drow are. It was towards the end of battle and I was moving up to hit he last beasty. Surprising the GM calls AoO and I quickly countered with Grace. It went through the game no questions... Mainly because I am the GM most of the time and secondly said beasty was at deaths door.
I am just determined to work out how the mechanics works as it is new to our group. I on occasion con play and GM pfs rules so I like to better my skills.
|
|
Masika:
I see your logic that a swift action can occur at any point during your turn you are trying to insert a swift action into the middle of a current action (in this case a movement).Actions are discrete.
What you are trying to do is insert a swift action into the middle of a move action. By the rules you cannot do this. If you could insert an action into the middle of another action we would not have need for feats like Spring attack or Shot on the run.Immediate actions work a bit differently. They are interrupts.
AoOs are similar in that they are interrupts.
So the sequence is as follows:
You: Movement (provoking AoO)
Enemy: Attack of Opportunity
You: Continue movementExcept for an immediate action (or certain feats) you cannot insert another action into the midst of an existing action.
- Gauss
Thanks for your take but I am confused as a swift action is identical to an immediate action except whether or not it is the PC's turn. When I read anytime it means in any turn. I am gather some responses here take that to mean literally at any time.
A swift action is an immediate action (exact wording srd) except it is in the pc's turn. In my mind they should mechanically play out exactly the same way.
Masika: A Swift action is NOT an immediate action. Immediate actions are interrupts. Swift actions are not. While they are similar in all other respects that one difference is everything.
You cannot use a Swift action in the middle of another action unless the ability specifically states you can. This really has nothing to do with swift or not. It is the basic way actions are handled. Until you complete an action you cannot take another action unless the rules specifically state you can.
In any case, you already provoked the attack of opportunity. It is too late to do anything about it at that point unless you have an ability that specifically states you can (such as an immediate action).
Put another way: you are trying to grant the interrupt concept (that immediate actions possess) to swift actions. It does not work like that because you can only use one action at a time AND swift actions do not have the interrupt concept.
- Gauss
|
|
See, here->
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
They wouldn't need to qualify with "even if it's not your turn" if that was what they already meant by "can be performed at any time".
You have two distinct ways the Immediate action is different from a swift action:
1)can be performed at any time
2)can be used even if it's not your turn
| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
For FAQing purposes:
Which rule takes precedence, an Attack of Opportunity which "“interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round", or an immediate action which "can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn."
Example: A wizard moves past a foe, provoking an attack of opportunity. Can the wizard then cast Emergency Force Sphere, which is an immediate action, in response to the attack of opportunity, preventing the foe from being able to make that attack?
My take is that the Immediate action does.
In your example yes, the wizard can do exactly that.
- Gauss
|
|
It is still a bit 'iffy' on that Gauss. The SRD state specifically,
"An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."
So I question the use of an immediate action to "interrupt" an AoO as soon as an AoO is announced it is immediately resolved. As an AoO is not an action but just 'occurs' there is no time to add an immediate action.
The rules also state immediate actions can occur at ANY point. Thus, you can use an immediate action at any point including before an AoO is resolved.
Yes, this does actually mean that a string of immediate actions can occur. While it might be nonsensical on a 'how does this actually occur in realtime' level that is how the rules are built.
- Gauss
I guess I am confused. The Panther Style feat is used in the same way. While using this style, when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square, you can spend a swift action to make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent. Your attack is resolved after the triggering attack of opportunity. When you get the higher form of this feat, the retaliatory strike is determined before the attack of opportunity.
How is this different?
I've been looking at the Duelist recently and I noticed that the parry ability which effectively deflects a blow on the opponents turn is listed as a "immediate" action. This immediate action could feasibly be used to deflect an AoO against an Ally. I thought it might shed some light on the matter.
Ex: While adjacent to the wizard and standing toe to toe with a gnoll you activate the parry ability and take a full attack action. The wizard begins casting and triggers an AoO. The gnoll begins his AoO but your Immediate action would prevent it from happening if you successfully parry.