Spellstoring ranged weapons

[Vixeryz]

It doesnt say in the description of the spell storing ability that "it must be a melee weapon" but spell storing doesnt appear in the list of abilities for ranged weapons (table 15-10).
I see no logical reason why a bow cant store spells...
Is this a mistake? Can a bow have spell storing? please?
(Perhaps in the future there can be a Magus archetype with archery?)
or...wait- Arcane archer- thats a thing right? legal in PFSOP?

[proftobe]

they aren't afraid of bows storing spells. But RAW if spell storing could be put on a bow then it could be placed in ammunition and that's the nightmare they're preventing.

[Vuvu]

because then there is no reason to be an arcane archer

[blackbloodtroll]

If the melee weapon can be thrown, then you can get yourself a ranged spell-storing weapon.

[Vixeryz]

so- i need an answer from someone in authority to verify that I CAN put spell storing on a bow. Because for my character in PFS organized play, I want to put spell storing on my bow.

(and yes vuvu there is a reason to be an arcane archer because they get to do arcane arrows for free)

[Nicos]

Vixeryz wrote:

(Perhaps in the future there can be a Magus archetype with archery?)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/myrmidarch

Ranged Spellstrike (Su)

At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack. Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack. At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.

This ability replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.

[LazarX]

Vixeryz wrote:

It doesnt say in the description of the spell storing ability that "it must be a melee weapon" but spell storing doesnt appear in the list of abilities for ranged weapons (table 15-10).

I see no logical reason why a bow cant store spells...
Is this a mistake? Can a bow have spell storing? please?
(Perhaps in the future there can be a Magus archetype with archery?)
or...wait- Arcane archer- thats a thing right? legal in PFSOP?

Look at the spellstoring mechanic and how it works. You'll see why they did not have to bother forbidding it for ranged weapons and why it does not appear on that list.

If you don't see why, read it again.

Repeat these steps until the revelation occurs.

To do what you want it to do, it would have to be a spellstoring arrow and ammunition is destroyed when it hits.

[Vuvu]

my point was that if that is allowed then for 8000 you get a major feature of the prestige class

that is all

I am under the impression that if it is not listed as an option for ranged weapons then it will not be legal for PFS. Though I certainly can be wrong on that, but I dont think I am

If it was a homegame I would not allow it.

[Vixeryz]

LazarX wrote:

Vixeryz wrote:

It doesnt say in the description of the spell storing ability that "it must be a melee weapon" but spell storing doesnt appear in the list of abilities for ranged weapons (table 15-10).

I see no logical reason why a bow cant store spells...
Is this a mistake? Can a bow have spell storing? please?
(Perhaps in the future there can be a Magus archetype with archery?)
or...wait- Arcane archer- thats a thing right? legal in PFSOP?

Look at the spellstoring mechanic and how it works. You'll see why they did not have to bother forbidding it for ranged weapons and why it does not appear on that list.

If you don't see why, read it again.

Repeat these steps until the revelation occurs.

To do what you want it to do, it would have to be a spellstoring arrow and ammunition is destroyed when it hits.

You store a spell in your bow and can choose to cast it from the weapon as you like- it would then bestow the spell upon the ammo and you would lose the spell

Yeah, it means touch attacks would then become ranged touch attacks- so?
Yeah it would mean that you can case cure light wounds via a blunted arrow- and?
I read it several times, I dont see any reason why you couldnt put spell storing on a bow.

This is why I want a mod or dev- ya know someone in charge of the PFSOP rules to tell me "yea or nay"

[Michael Sayre]

Umm, it wouldn't automatically transfer the ability to ammunition. If you actually read magic weapons and ammunition not all abilities are automatically conferred to ammunition:

Ranged Weapons/Magic Ammunition:

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.

Nothing in there that says anything other than the enhancement bonus is passed on to ammunition. In fact, if you look at the table for ranged weapon special abilities (let me go ahead and copy it in here):

Ranged Weapon Special abilities:

Table: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities Minor Medium Major Special Ability Base Price Modifier1
01–12 01–08 01–04 Bane2 +1 bonus
13–25 09–16 05–08 Distance +1 bonus
26–40 17–28 09–12 Flaming2 +1 bonus
41–55 29–40 13–16 Frost2 +1 bonus
56–60 41–42 — Merciful2 +1 bonus
61–68 43–47 17–21 Returning +1 bonus
69–83 48–59 22–25 Shock2 +1 bonus
84–93 60–64 26–27 Seeking +1 bonus
94–99 65–68 28–29 Thundering2 +1 bonus
— 69–71 30–34 Anarchic2 +2 bonus
— 72–74 35–39 Axiomatic2 +2 bonus
— 75–79 40–49 Flaming burst2 +2 bonus
— 80–82 50–54 Holy2 +2 bonus
— 83–87 55–64 Icy burst2 +2 bonus
— 88–92 65–74 Shocking burst2 +2 bonus
— 93–95 75–79 Unholy2 +2 bonus
— — 80–84 Speed +3 bonus
— — 85–90 Brilliant energy +4 bonus
100 96–100 91–100 Roll again twice2 —
1 Add to enhancement bonus on Table: Weapons to determine total market price.
2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.
3 Reroll if you get a duplicate special ability, an ability incompatible with an ability that you've already rolled, or if the extra ability puts you over the +10 limit. A weapon's enhancement bonus and special ability bonus equivalents can't total more than +10.

You'll notice that they specifically call out which abilities do transfer over to ammunition. So, sure why not, you could put spell storing on your bow, but it wouldn't impact your ammunition.

[Virgil]

Might as well put spellstoring on your ammunition then, much easier.

[Michael Sayre]

Virgil wrote:

Might as well put spellstoring on your ammunition then, much easier.

Which I as a GM would have no problem with, since you're paying 8000 gp per 50 arrows.

[Bertious]

Slightly ammused now by the idea of a summoner with arrows of dimension door to move his allies around at a whim.

[Tristram]

Vuvu wrote:

my point was that if that is allowed then for 8000 you get a major feature of the prestige class

that is all

I am under the impression that if it is not listed as an option for ranged weapons then it will not be legal for PFS. Though I certainly can be wrong on that, but I dont think I am

If it was a homegame I would not allow it.

Arcane Archer and Spell Storing work in slightly different ways. AA's Imbue Arrow allows you to fire AoE spells via the arrow (even personal AoE spells like Anti-magic Field). A spell storing weapon allows you to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. As such this would allow a Myrmidarch 11/AA 2 with a Spell Storing bow to fire of almost any type of spell through their bow.

As for the legality of Spell Storing ranged weapons, they aren't legal per the standard rules (and thus PFS).

I allow Spell Storing on ranged weapons in my campaigns (and it does transfer to ammunition). I figure that the action to store a spell into a weapon in combat outweighs the value of firing off a 3rd level or lower spell through a gun or bow. I would never allow ammunition to be enchanted with Spell Storing on their own though, an archer firing off 5+ arrows all storing Enhanced Shocking Grasps (or worse) would be game breaking.

[Virgil]

Keen must be melee, Disrupting must be melee, Distance is only for ranged, Seeking must be ranged. There are others, but it's clear that in the enchantment description you are told where they can go. Spell storing has no such limitation in its description.

That chart is for rolling random magic items, not for listing what is possible. Ranged weapons with Wounding, Defending, or Ghost Touch wouldn't be allowed by that logic, which is silly. +1 throwing and returning warhammers are not allowed because of this. Yeah, that +1 Keen Rapier of Speed? Not allowed. Heck, you can never mix Keen, Defending, or Merciful with speed, brilliant energy, dancing, or vorpal.

+1 Merciful Spellstoring Warhammer of Speed, Throwing & Returning; is this the most unallowed combo ever?

[MC Templar]

Vixeryz wrote:

...

You store a spell in your bow and can choose to cast it from the weapon as you like- it would then bestow the spell upon the ammo and you would lose the spell

Yeah, it means touch attacks would then become ranged touch attacks- so?
Yeah it would mean that you can case cure light wounds via a blunted arrow- and?
I read it several times, I dont see any reason why you couldnt put spell storing on a bow.

This is why I want a mod or dev- ya know someone in charge of the PFSOP rules to tell me "yea or nay"

I think the revelation he was suggesting is the fact that activating the spell from the weapon is a free action that you decide once the attack hits, which tends to defy logic somewhat when you are now 100 ft away from the arrow that is striking the target.

I know you really want this to work, but there isn't a RAW back-up you can hang your hat on that will allow it, plus, no GM is likely to interpret this the way you are hoping.

And if you find a snarky GM, he will allow you to put the enhancement on the bow, but the spell will only be activated when you smack some with the bow as an improvised melee weapon.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is the "Melee Weapon Enchantments" table and "Ranged Weapon Enchantments" table are not arbitrary, the enchantments listed are specifically cited to apply to either ranged, melee or both, and that is considered a specific and credible ruling. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but this won't be rules legal for PFS.

[Vixeryz]

Virgil wrote:

Keen must be melee, Disrupting must be melee, Distance is only for ranged, Seeking must be ranged. There are others, but it's clear that in the enchantment description you are told where they can go. Spell storing has no such limitation in its description.

That chart is for rolling random magic items, not for listing what is possible. Ranged weapons with Wounding, Defending, or Ghost Touch wouldn't be allowed by that logic, which is silly. +1 throwing and returning warhammers are not allowed because of this. Yeah, that +1 Keen Rapier of Speed? Not allowed. Heck, you can never mix Keen, Defending, or Merciful with speed, brilliant energy, dancing, or vorpal.

+1 Keen Warhammer of Speed, Throwing, and Returning; not allowed

What- You've never heard of disrupting shot?

[Vixeryz]

MC Templar wrote:

Vixeryz wrote:

...

You store a spell in your bow and can choose to cast it from the weapon as you like- it would then bestow the spell upon the ammo and you would lose the spell

Yeah, it means touch attacks would then become ranged touch attacks- so?
Yeah it would mean that you can case cure light wounds via a blunted arrow- and?
I read it several times, I dont see any reason why you couldnt put spell storing on a bow.

This is why I want a mod or dev- ya know someone in charge of the PFSOP rules to tell me "yea or nay"

I think the revelation he was suggesting is the fact that activating the spell from the weapon is a free action that you decide once the attack hits, which tends to defy logic somewhat when you are now 100 ft away from the arrow that is striking the target.

I know you really want this to work, but there isn't a RAW back-up you can hang your hat on that will allow it, plus, no GM is likely to interpret this the way you are hoping.

And if you find a snarky GM, he will allow you to put the enhancement on the bow, but the spell will only be activated when you smack some with the bow as an improvised melee weapon.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is the "Melee Weapon Enchantments" table and "Ranged Weapon Enchantments" table are not arbitrary, the enchantments listed are specifically cited to apply to either ranged, melee or both, and that is considered a specific and credible ruling. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but this won't be rules legal for PFS.

Uh no- cuz like you said the arrow would be far away so- you decide to cast it before shooting and once the arrow is loosed, whether you hit or not the spell is gone. The only possibility is that the ARROW might hold the charge if you miss- so roll that 50% chance to recover the arrow and you can go a step further and roll a second 50% chance that the arrow still has its charge. Imagine the hilarity if you recover an arrow that still has the spell in it and the spell discharges upon picking it up. :P

[Virgil]

Vixeryz wrote:

Virgil wrote:

Keen must be melee, Disrupting must be melee, Distance is only for ranged, Seeking must be ranged. There are others, but it's clear that in the enchantment description you are told where they can go. Spell storing has no such limitation in its description.

That chart is for rolling random magic items, not for listing what is possible. Ranged weapons with Wounding, Defending, or Ghost Touch wouldn't be allowed by that logic, which is silly. +1 throwing and returning warhammers are not allowed because of this. Yeah, that +1 Keen Rapier of Speed? Not allowed. Heck, you can never mix Keen, Defending, or Merciful with speed, brilliant energy, dancing, or vorpal.

+1 Keen Warhammer of Speed, Throwing, and Returning; not allowed

What- You've never heard of disrupting shot?

I've heard of it, but I can't recall what book it's in, since it's not in the Core PF tome; and that's only tangential to my greater point.

[Maezer]

Vixeryz wrote:

I see no logical reason why a bow cant store spells...

You're not trying very hard. Anything that lets you cast multiple spells a round is insanely powerful. And if it could go on the bow it could go on the arrow. And if it goes on the arrow you are facing full attacks of 3+ 3rd level spells going a round.

Even ignoring that. The ability to turn every <=3rd level melee touch into a long range spell is a reason enough to shouldn't be allowed.

So just read the ability. If you are not wielding the weapon when it strikes the foe, you don't get the option to discharge the spell. Thus its pointless on ranged weapons.

[Vixeryz]

its not 3 spells a round- you cast a spell into your bow, thats your action- next turn you shoot or cast a spell there is no way to cast multiple spells a round without metamagic feats.

your complaint about making touch spells ranged being OP is made invalid by thrown weapons.

Spellstoring +returning

btw you ARE wielding the bow when its ammo strikes the target- i dont see the problem here...attach a cord to the arrow if you want....

hand grapple-guns with a winch are AWESOME for dragging a foe and making gaping holes in your target

Remember John Carpenter's Vampires? When they shot vamps with a crossbow that had cables attached and drug em outside with their jeep? imagine spellstoring on something like that!

[Michael Sayre]

Maezer wrote:

Vixeryz wrote:

I see no logical reason why a bow cant store spells...

You're not trying very hard. Anything that lets you cast multiple spells a round is insanely powerful. And if it could go on the bow it could go on the arrow. And if it goes on the arrow you are facing full attacks of 3+ 3rd level spells going a round.

Even ignoring that. The ability to turn every <=3rd level melee touch into a long range spell is a reason enough to shouldn't be allowed.

So just read the ability. If you are not wielding the weapon when it strikes the foe, you don't get the option to discharge the spell. Thus its pointless on ranged weapons.

And as I noted earlier in the thread, Spell Storing is not an ability a bow, sling, or crossbow can confer on its ammunition.

[Vixeryz]

Ssalarn wrote:

Maezer wrote:

Vixeryz wrote:

I see no logical reason why a bow cant store spells...

You're not trying very hard. Anything that lets you cast multiple spells a round is insanely powerful. And if it could go on the bow it could go on the arrow. And if it goes on the arrow you are facing full attacks of 3+ 3rd level spells going a round.

Even ignoring that. The ability to turn every <=3rd level melee touch into a long range spell is a reason enough to shouldn't be allowed.

So just read the ability. If you are not wielding the weapon when it strikes the foe, you don't get the option to discharge the spell. Thus its pointless on ranged weapons.

And as I noted earlier in the thread, Spell Storing is not an ability a bow, sling, or crossbow can confer on its ammunition.

says you- you're not a pfs official so...your opinion is just that.

If it were listed under the chart for ranged abilities it WOULD have that tiny number to designate that the spell is launched via ammo

[Michael Sayre]

@Vixeryz

Now you're the one expressing opinions with nothing to back them up. You've been given plenty of explanations with references pulled directly from the official published material.
Every... single... property that is capable of being transferred to ammunition is marked accordingly, including properties that are shared between both melee and ranged, and ranged only.
You're begging for a dev to come vindicate your idea despite all evidence to the contrary, and they just aren't at the beck and call of every single RAWyer who thinks he's found the next big thing. If you want this to work in PFS, you should have posted in the PFS thread to see if they make an exception to the way weapon properties are designated for organized play, not in the rules thread. The threads are not your personal forum to demand dev attention, they are a community tool where you turn to the community to help or provide input with your questions/comments/concerns. If a dev chooses to provide direct input, it is a wonderful thing, not a given right or even a common expectation.

[Weenog]

House rule: Spellstoring Ranged Weapons do not stack with spellstoring ammunition. if used together you may only apply one effect. However, an arcane archer with the imbue arrow ability may still channel an additional area of effect spell in the same shot, provided he is using non-magical arrows.

spellstoring ammunition can still be a problem when you start blasting out three spells per round at the cost of only 80gp per pop, there are legal way to do this kindof thing anyway by using throwing weapons with expencive enchantments.

But instead of doing that, ask for a compromise with your dm. I recommend raising the price of the spellstoring arrow signifigantly, at least the price of a scroll of the same spell level stored. or tops to the price of a melee weapon enchantment and making the arrows durable and reusable so they do not break.

a Durable Admantine Arrow of Spellstoring would cost you around 2061gp but can be used many times, you might however only be able to carry a few of them at the same time.

[Karuth]

You could use a bow as improvised melee weapon. There is even a spell (Bowstaff) allowing you to turn your bow into a melee weapon.
So you may be able to place spellstoring on it, but it would only trigger once you use the bow in melee.

Also, you can use an arrow as an improvised dagger. So you may be able to make a single arrow a +1 spellstoring arrow "dagger" for 8000 gp :P

[Kazaan]

If you had spell-storing on a Bow, it would only activate when you smacked someone upside the head with the Bow itself. I could, potentially, see an arrow with spell-storing, but since it "discharges" after it leaves the bow, it wouldn't benefit from your casting stat but instead rely on its own (presuming a non-intelligent arrow, that would be -5 to the DC), unless you're using it as an improvised melee weapon.

[Shimesen]

Excerpt from spell storing description: "Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires."

That being said, a bow never strikes an enemy, little own do damage, the ammunition does both, so unless you had arrows is spell storing this would not be possible. And sense spell storing is not listed as an enchantment for arrows, nor as an enchantment that bestows its quality on ammunition, it is indeed not legal for PFS play.

That is the answer you are looking for exactly as a dev would write it. That is exact RAW, and RAW is law in PFS.

[ChucklesMcTruck]

Darn. So no Spell-storing catapult, then. There goes my weekend project.

[Josh-o-Lantern]

Only 4 years late to the conversation...

[ChucklesMcTruck]

Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

Only 4 years late to the conversation...

Yes, unfortunately my time machine was on the fritz so I was unable to post this three years before I even started playing Pathfinder. I'm sorry for any trauma you experienced because you were forced to read my words on the internet.

[Cevah]

Long ago,

Vixeryz wrote:

Uh no- cuz like you said the arrow would be far away so- you decide to cast it before shooting and once the arrow is loosed, whether you hit or not the spell is gone. The only possibility is that the ARROW might hold the charge if you miss- so roll that 50% chance to recover the arrow and you can go a step further and roll a second 50% chance that the arrow still has its charge. Imagine the hilarity if you recover an arrow that still has the spell in it and the spell discharges upon picking it up. :P

The arrow cannot hold the charge, since magical ammo becomes non-magical after being used. Thus you would loose the storing ability and whatever spell it had.

As to the 8000 gp for 50 spell storing arrows mentioned, ..., no.

At best, one of those 50 arrows can store a spell.

As a GM, I would you to enchant an arrow for the equivalent cost:
+1 Arrow [40 gp] = 40 gp.
+1 Arrow w/Spell Storing [40 gp + (8000-2000) gp] = 6040 gp.
+2 Arrow w/Spell Storing [160 gp + (18000-8000) gp] = 10160 gp.

/cevah