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There's a fair amount of buzz due to Ultimate Equipment coming out; and on the whole it's not a major haul for monk lovers - but that's not to say that there's not some possibility for greatness.
I've not hyper-optimized, but present Fabio as a proof of concept monk. The maths below assumes an 11th level character and produces a respectable DPR that is team-orientated. The maths gets relatively convoluted, but details are given in the spoiler.
Monk of the empty hand 11
Str 22 = 16 + 2 racial + 2 levels + 2 enhancement
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 10
For the most part, your choice on items and feats; but the build thrives on having lots of ki points, so making a plan along that line will certainly help. The only absolutely essential item is a ring of ki mastery (10 000gp). I've used Weapon Focus (improvised weapon wielded), Weapon Focus (unarmed), and Improvised Weapon Mastery.
Required for the maths that I use, Fabio flurries using a +3 one-handed weapon (used as an improvised weapon) and his unarmed strikes:
- ring of ki mastery (10 000gp)
- +3 one-handed weapon (20 000gp)
- +1 amulet of mighty fists (5 000gp)
attack fist during flurry 17 (11 bab - 2 flurry + 6 str + 1 feat + 1 magic)
attack improvised weapon during flurry 19 (11 bab - 2 flurry + 6 str + 1 feat + 3 magic)
damage fist 2d8+7 (6 str + 1 magic)
damage improvised weapon 1d8+9 (6 str + 3 magic) (uses improvised weapon mastery feat)
Facing CR 11 opponent (assumes AC 25):
basic: fan, fist, fan, fist, fan (19/17/14/12/9)
0.75 * 13.5 * 1.1 + 0.65 * 16 * 1.05 + 0.5 * 13.5 * 1.1 + 0.4 * 16 * 1.05 + 0.25 * 13.5 * 1.1 = 39.915
3 ki points: fan becomes +3 greater designating fan
0.75 * (13.5 * 1.1 + 0.85 * 22 * 1.05 + 0.7 * 19.5 * 1.1 + 0.6 * 22 * 1.05 + 0.45 * 19.5 * 1.1) + 0.25 * (0.65 * 16 * 1.05 + 0.5 * (13.5 * 1.1 + 0.6 * 22 * 1.05 + 0.45 * 19.5 * 1.1) + 0.5 * (0.4 * 16 * 1.05 + 0.25 * 13.5 * 1.1)) = 63.58875
if hasted
0.8 * (13.5 * 1.1 + 0.95 * 19.5 * 1.1 + 0.9 * 22 * 1.05 + 0.75 * 19.5 * 1.1 + 0.65 * 22 * 1.05 + 0.5 * 19.5 * 1.1) + 0.2 * (0.8 * (13.5 * 1.1 + 0.9 * 22 * 1.05 + 0.75 * 19.5 * 1.1 + 0.65 * 22 * 1.05 + 0.5 * 19.5 * 1.1) + 0.2 * (0.7 * 16 * 1.05 + 0.55 * (13.5 * 1.1 + 0.65 * 22 * 1.05 + 0.5 * 19.5 * 1.1) + 0.45 * (0.45 * 16 * 1.05 + 0.3 * 13.5 * 1.1))) = 92.25045
The basic work-horse is the "designating, greater" weapon enhancement. A monk of the empty hand can imbue his improvised weapons with any weapon enhancement, even ones that don't usually work on the weapon (greater designating is a ranged/ammunition enhancement normally). Ordinarily it would cost 4 ki points to imbue a +4 weapon property like greater designating - but thanks to a charged ring of ki mastery the cost is reduced to 3; which allows a monk of the empty hand to use it from level 11 onwards.
Once you hit an opponent with a greater designating weapon, allies (including yourself) receive a +4 moral bonus to attack and +6 moral bonus to damage for 1 round. This allows Fabio to be a tremendous team player to quickly take down a powerful enemy, while doing pretty respectable damage himself.
The build is >very< sensitive to any bonus to attacks, and haste (granting an additional attack with the greater designating weapon) gives a big boost to the damage output. Thus if you were to add a bard or some buff spells or other means to increase odds of connecting with your greater designating weapon (invisibility, feint, etc) then the build goes from strength to strength.
Basic odds of designating a foe in a round: 90.5%
Odds of designating a foe in a round while hasted: 98.7%
Monks are OP. Paizo loves monks too much! :(
More seriously, I am not certain that this is not one of those cases where it "doesn't make sense" for you to count as your own ally. It basically would give you back the enhancement bonus of that item after the first hit, which is...weird...
I'm also not 100% certain that you can apply ranged weapon abilities to it, but you probably can.
Solid build, but there is just something wrong with the game system itself when a monk has a 22 Strength . . . just a 12 and 13 in Dexterity and Wisdom. I know, I know, it works, but it just feels so . . . wrong.
Nice build though.
What did you think of the bodywraps? LOL
Master Arminas
Let me be the first to point out that a monk of the empty hand could now also make his improvised weapons take the brilliant energy special property.
Solid build, but there is just something wrong with the game system itself when a monk has a 22 Strength . . . just a 12 and 13 in Dexterity and Wisdom. I know, I know, it works, but it just feels so . . . wrong.
Nice build though.
What did you think of the bodywraps? LOL
Master Arminas
Bruce Lee was not exactly known for not being CUT LIKE A GOD.
High strength is the way to go for monks. Saves you having to invest in dex and Weapon Finesse.
Not bad, but what is his AC? If you make yourself a priority you should be prepared to deal with the enemy returning fire.
PS:I am hoping that this works as currently advertised.
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Solid build, but there is just something wrong with the game system itself when a monk has a 22 Strength . . . just a 12 and 13 in Dexterity and Wisdom. I know, I know, it works, but it just feels so . . . wrong.
Nice build though.
What did you think of the bodywraps? LOL
Master Arminas
Bruce Lee was not exactly known for not being CUT LIKE A GOD.
High strength is the way to go for monks. Saves you having to invest in dex and Weapon Finesse.
22 strength is not just cut like a god, it's seven feet tall and built like a brick privy.
Bruce Lee was not that, he was a little guy. A very fit little guy, but a little guy. He was known for technique, coordination, blinding speed and insight. His 22 was in dexterity, strength he was a 16, tops.
As for the rest of this build, without my reference books to hand, I don't know if the monk of the empty hand's ability is costing ki per round or has a longer duration to it. If it's ki per round, it's going to burn ki like nobody's business, it hinges on you being your own ally.
Otherwise, it's one archetype (not the core monk) and it's only working at 11th level, and of course the question is how you get to 11th level to perform this trick. Lastly, 92 DPR at 11th level with haste is low average for a DPR build - nice for a monk, it's true, but not awesome.
As for the rest of this build, without my reference books to hand, I don't know if the monk of the empty hand's ability is costing ki per round or has a longer duration to it. If it's ki per round, it's going to burn ki like nobody's business, it hinges on you being your own ally.
Otherwise, it's one archetype (not the core monk) and it's only working at 11th level, and of course the question is how you get to 11th level to perform this trick. Lastly, 92 DPR at 11th level with haste is low average for a DPR build - nice for a monk, it's true, but not awesome.
It's per-round; so ki really is the premium thing to have. Not relevant against mooks - but if you have a big boss fight, this should come out. The developers have re-iterated time and again that you are your own ally, unless otherwise stated.
92 DPR is decent enough for the monk itself, but the important thing is the team-aspect of granting all allies +4 to hit and +6 to damage for a round. That is pretty massive bonus.
...
I should add that I've not gone out of my way to do power optimizations to the build. Looking into a wyroot weapon for example can alleviate the ki problem to some extent. There are still plenty of optimizations available for the DPR - I've literally only presented the basic concept. Using the Tiger Style feats with Power Attack, for example, the build can grow its DPR to 122.
...
And make no mistake, Bruce Lee's muscles were as trained as they come - unlike many of the muscle-men that we get presented on TV these days, Bruce Lee avoided muscle growth products like steroids and keratin. His body has the muscles of a man that exercises half a day, every day. He didn't advocate high speed over strength - he believed that both are required; and he trained for that appropriately. So even if he only starts with 16 Strength at level 1, keep in mind that he also gets level-up bonus to stats and of course magical enhancements.
Actually Lorekeeper they did not say you were not your own ally unless otherwise stated. Well that was part of it, but not all of it. They also added that if it did not make sense or if it would be impossible.
Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
Now I don't have a reference point for how the designating property is written, but it mostly is meant to boost your allies, and not yourself.
As for the rest of this build, without my reference books to hand, I don't know if the monk of the empty hand's ability is costing ki per round or has a longer duration to it. If it's ki per round, it's going to burn ki like nobody's business, it hinges on you being your own ally.
Otherwise, it's one archetype (not the core monk) and it's only working at 11th level, and of course the question is how you get to 11th level to perform this trick. Lastly, 92 DPR at 11th level with haste is low average for a DPR build - nice for a monk, it's true, but not awesome.
It's per-round; so ki really is the premium thing to have. Not relevant against mooks - but if you have a big boss fight, this should come out. The developers have re-iterated time and again that you are your own ally, unless otherwise stated.
92 DPR is decent enough for the monk itself, but the important thing is the team-aspect of granting all allies +4 to hit and +6 to damage for a round. That is pretty massive bonus.
It is decent, but at that level for 3 ki per round, it's going to be hell. You have three, maybe four rounds of it total, and all your ki is gone. Assuming you have other stuff you will need ki for, that's one encounter you can be a decent DPR dealer for.
If the target has buffed his AC, or has DR, then you run into the perennial monk problem of actually hitting them.
Yes, that's where the haste came from.
Well, ultimately I'm not trying to present the strongest monk build or anything - just demonstrate a fun new possibility created by Ultimate Equipment. :)
It is decent, but at that level for 3 ki per round, it's going to be hell. You have three, maybe four rounds of it total, and all your ki is gone.
That's why you bring this!
"Now, for just the low, low payment of..."
Seriously: It's a nice build and kind of quirky but I don't think it'd make me want to play monk. Not unless I knew they were low ac enemies with little dr. Or maybe if I had a druid cohort chocked full of magic fang for every part of my body.
That Monk has an AC of 15, plus whatever Bracers you can get. He has 80 HPs. My assumption is that he will run up to the BBEG and die horribly.
That Monk has an AC of 15, plus whatever Bracers you can get. He has 80 HPs. My assumption is that he will run up to the BBEG and die horribly.
That monk is not a fully built character, just a basic proof of concept for a monk that starts with 16 strength (before racial bonuses) and not designed for play just like that. A full build includes suitable feat and item choices.
Sample additions:
- +2 Dex (part of belt for +2 Str) 6000gp
- +2 Wis (headband) 4000gp
- ring of protection +2 8000gp
- ioun stone +1 AC 5000gp
- potions of mage armor or bracers +4 (?x50gp or 16000gp)
- Dodge feat
- Crane Style feats
- qinggong ki power: barkskin
Effective AC: 29 = 10 + 4 armor + 3 dex + 2 wis + 2 monk + 1 insight + 1 dodge + 2 deflection + 4 barkskin
Using Crane AC: 34
I think he's pretty well set up AC-wise.
AC is not the monk's problem feature. I have to say 80HP at 11th level is weak, though. Ultimately, though, tale away the ki trick and what has he got? It's basically not as a good as a paladin who can smite once per day.
Crisis are you guys willing to make this hard.
- +2 Con (6000gp)
- Toughness
HP = 102
That he has a ki trick is the whole point though.
That's just the point, Lorekeeper, this guy is blowing a ton of resources to be mediocre for one encounter in four. Mechanically, why wouldn't you be playing a paladin or ranger or barbarian for better effect, if you want DPR?
Because it's functional optimization, Dabbler. You pick what you want to play first then you make that character the best it can be. He's not aiming for the highest DPR possible; he's aiming for a monk that contributes.
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This just in: Class that's not meant to stand toe-to-toe with the big damage dealers needs to expend lots of resources to do so. More at 11.
Because it's functional optimization, Dabbler. You pick what you want to play first then you make that character the best it can be. He's not aiming for the highest DPR possible; he's aiming for a monk that contributes.
Is being as useful as any other character for one encounter in four contributing?
Sorry, but there it is. For this investment of optimisation I would expect any other class to be able to turn out high DPR every time, not one time in three.
Plus Cheapy has a point in that the monk's strength is not meant to be in DPR. Heaven only knows where is IS meant to be, but Jason Bhulman is quite emphatic that damage dealing isn't it.
This character still has lots of movement, some of those weird situational abilities, and a decent amount of skills. This build seems designed to fill a bard role, but differently. In a non-optimized party (of which most are not), this character fits in just fine.
Nice build Lorekeeper. Good job.
It looks good, but it's not a workable character.
It looks good, but it's not a workable character.
How so?
Because this build is good for one encounter per day before he's out of ki. It's a nice trick to pull, don't get me wrong, but it works only once a day. What do you do the rest of the time, because then you are a monk effectively without ki?
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Because this build is good for one encounter per day before he's out of ki. It's a nice trick to pull, don't get me wrong, but it works only once a day. What do you do the rest of the time, because then you are a monk effectively without ki?
Yell to your friendly teleport casting person "15 MINUTE ADVENTURING DAY'S OVER!" and you know how the rest goes.
Because this build is good for one encounter per day before he's out of ki. It's a nice trick to pull, don't get me wrong, but it works only once a day. What do you do the rest of the time, because then you are a monk effectively without ki?Yell to your friendly teleport casting person "15 MINUTE ADVENTURING DAY'S OVER!" and you know how the rest goes.
As ever, your contributions are unique.
Wow judging a build based on one of many tricks.
Wow judging a build based on one of many tricks.
He may have many other tricks, but sans ki a monk is at a disadvantage (or perhaps I should say, more of a disadvantage). I didn't say it wasn't a really nice trick, and I don't dispute that the monk can get this far by dint of other tricks, but the bottom line is this is a ki-nova, and if you blow all your ki, you have a problem.
That said, you can use this trick as a one-off when everyone else is in position to attack and take advantage as well. That makes the monk a much better team player...if you overlook that a bard could give you a lesser advantage over every encounter rather than a big advantage for a few rounds in one.
This is more of a End game all or nothing tactic though not the go to first strike tactic.
This is more of a End game all or nothing tactic though not the go to first strike tactic.
I agree, and it's not a bad one either - except that you have to save your ki up for it.
It is just like a Magus and their Arcane Pool. It takes tactical ability to successfully and efficiently use.
In fact I think a Magus can burn their Arcane Pool quicker than a Monk...
(I think I just witnessed it...)
Thing a bout a magus arcane pool is they burn it for enhancements per combat while the monk burns it per round. I have seen a magus burn through their arcane pool, but they spent it recalling and spamming spells, not on enhancements, and it was the final fight of the day they burned out on, having used arcane pool earlier in the day.
A smart Monk will use their Ki wisely and sparingly.
A smart Monk will use their Ki wisely and sparingly.
I agree, but sometimes this is not a choice.
It's really not an option for some monks to not burn Ki, especially if they want to use all those other pretty class features of theirs. I mean, a Monk gets a few spell-like abilities that cost Ki... but a Magus gets spells, so all his pool goes towards his selected buffs/novas.
However I would point out that both the Monk & Magus can take extra ki/arcane feats respectively to boost their pools. Of course, the Magus can use his bonus feats to purchase his, but I digress...
More on topic, this is a pretty cool build even if it would fall under what I would call impractical. At least, we do get SOME things with the UE.
Good build. But is an AC of 25 fitting for a CR 11? Wouldn't it be more around 28?