Oh look! The same circular arguing that happens every time the monk is discussed!
One of the monk's core mechanical abilities is going to be fixed because even the devs agree it needs fixing.
The monk class as a whole suffers until this is rectified.
To argue that it's fine as is is a bit obtuse.
DPR is not the only part of combat. Mobility, defenses against magic, and a ton of other things play a huge factor as well.
And Paladins and Rangers (and some fighters, cavaliers, bards, etc) get a lot of that stuff too... or ways to duplicate/emulate them.
Heck, Animal Aspect (ranger 2) might as well be 'Monkitude - The Spell, now with Versatility!', and Paladins have monks beat hands down in the Saves department, IMO (not to mention the healing, support, and combat departments).
Other classes don't have (quite) everything the monk does, its true (or at least, all at once)... but its also a bad idea to act like monks have a monopoly on anything.
Here's a question: what do monks get that's wholly unique to them, and can't be found on another class, who gets more besides?
Monks can run away better than any other class in the game, at least until casters get teleport spells.
I say run away, because the Monk has Flurry of Misses, barely scratches a creature if he hits (and doesn't scratch at all if he's got DR), and often times can't grapple/trip/disarm, unless the creature is a humanoid wielding a weapon. Preferably not a giant as they get size modifiers.
At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level.
At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
whats that bout not bypassing DR?
that was the problem with monks in 3.0.
3.5 changed that. thank God
Here's a question: what do monks get that's wholly unique to them, and can't be found on another class, who gets more besides?
Three Good saves. /trollface.jpg
Save or die attack?
+60' movement bonus?
Wis bonus to AC and CMD?
slow fall?
spell resistance?
Spell Resistance isn't a good thing as it blocks friendly casters from using spells on you, just as it does enemy casters. That Heal you needed? Yeah, not gonna happen. The Prayer I cast didn't affect you. Also, the Wizard couldn't get Haste through, so you don't get that. But good job on not being hit by that Fireball.
Keep in mind, most of the time, the enemy casters are going to be equal to, or higher level than the Monk. That means the enemy caster is going to have a 50% chance or better, of getting through the Monkes Spell Resistance.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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DPR is not the only part of combat. Mobility, defenses against magic, and a ton of other things play a huge factor as well.
And Paladins and Rangers (and some fighters, cavaliers, bards, etc) get a lot of that stuff too... or ways to duplicate/emulate them.
Heck, Animal Aspect (ranger 2) might as well be 'Monkitude - The Spell, now with Versatility!', and Paladins have monks beat hands down in the Saves department, IMO (not to mention the healing, support, and combat departments).
Other classes don't have (quite) everything the monk does, its true (or at least, all at once)... but its also a bad idea to act like monks have a monopoly on anything.
Here's a question: what do monks get that's wholly unique to them, and can't be found on another class, who gets more besides?
You can point at any single ability and say "yeah" someone else can do that too with any class. Each class has a different mix. Rangers have a spell where they can do monk stuff for 1 minute per level... yay! What about the other 23 hours 43 minutes of the day? More important, how about the 1 round the ranger has to spend in combat if he didn't happen to know he was going to need that ability in advance?
Classes are a mix of abilities and limitations, I've run enough games where I've been 'foiled' by the mix of cool/ fun stuff to know the the mix of abilities the monks have work pretty well. I know... but you can't point to numbers which show the monk is awesome!! If you want numbers, play the fighter.
DPR is not the only part of combat. Mobility, defenses against magic, and a ton of other things play a huge factor as well.
And Paladins and Rangers (and some fighters, cavaliers, bards, etc) get a lot of that stuff too... or ways to duplicate/emulate them.
Heck, Animal Aspect (ranger 2) might as well be 'Monkitude - The Spell, now with Versatility!', and Paladins have monks beat hands down in the Saves department, IMO (not to mention the healing, support, and combat departments).
Other classes don't have (quite) everything the monk does, its true (or at least, all at once)... but its also a bad idea to act like monks have a monopoly on anything.
Here's a question: what do monks get that's wholly unique to them, and can't be found on another class, who gets more besides?
Monks can run away better than any other class in the game, at least until casters get teleport spells.
I say run away, because the Monk has Flurry of Misses, barely scratches a creature if he hits (and doesn't scratch at all if he's got DR), and often times can't grapple/trip/disarm, unless the creature is a humanoid wielding a weapon. Preferably not a giant as they get size modifiers.
At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level.
At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.whats that bout not bypassing DR?
that was the problem with monks in 3.0.
3.5 changed that. thank God
Wow, would you look at that, Stoneskin allows a caster to tank a Monk until 16th level. Yay!
....
So, we have cold iron, silver, good, evil and lawful DR the unarmed Monk is going to struggle with. Damn them Demons and Devils then huh? They just up and destroy the Monk. I mean, lots of them can Teleport at will, so they have better movement than the Monk, they've nearly all got Spell Resistance, and pretty good saves in the ones that matter if not outright immunities to certain magics.
Granted, Demons and Devils are just one small subset of the Bestiary, but the point still remains the same that all other classes eventually laugh at DR as if it wasn't there. Rangers, Bards, Paladins, Fighters, Barbarians, Magi, Rogues... they all get enhancements to their weapons that eventually allow them to ignore jut about every DR that matters in the game.
Monks don't though. We also all know that many rapid attacks doing small amounts of damage (nickle/diming someone to death) is always a bad idea as eventually DR whoops your ass.
The only time I've ever seen a Monk do 'well' in a game is when I designed him for my own use. I have pretty high levels of System Mastery, something most players don't have, so I know how to get every bit of bang for my buck. Knowing how to squeeze every bonus, boon, and buff out of the game should not be a necessary requirement to play a Core class.
But it is.
In my town, there is one Hobby store and no other place for 150 miles (I live in Alaska). I'm one of the 'rules gurus' where I play. I get calls, texts, and emails from players in other campaigns asking for advice. I've seen lots of players in and out of our store playing Pathfinder. Consequently, the owner of the hobby store is someone I consider a favorite uncle.
So when I say I've never seen a player that was legitimately happy with their Monk, outside of myself, I hope you understand that this isn't just a group of 5 buddies. I'm talking dozens of people trying to play a Monk and all failing because they don't have the levels of System Mastery to pull it off. I can give them advice, I can tell them how to build the Monk, but build a character and playing the character right are two different subjects entirely.
A Monk has got to pull off every little trick in the book to make himself good. He needs the Flank and the High Ground. He needs the flat footed bonus from going first. He needs to Penalty Stack.
In the end, it all comes down to the fact the Monk will never be anything less than the guy that allows others to be cool. Sure, he can run around really fast and be neigh unaffected by spells. All that really lets him do is be the butler to the other classes.
The Monk is the guy that hops off the carriage, lowers the step and opens the door. Then he runs forward and opens the door to the fancy restaurant. Then he pulls out the seat. Then he brings the wine and the dinner.
He retrieves the weapons, armor and components for the other classes, and says, "Smashing good blow sir, I envy your talent and ability".
He grapples the enemy and says, "I'll hold him down for you sir, end his life so we may continue."
He gets in the enemy casters face and says, "I've got him now sir, cast your spells to your hearts delight."
Like I said, the Monk is the Butler for all the other classes. He makes them look even better than normal, while looking like nothing more than an insignificant NPC.
Hell, he might as well be an NPC class compared to the other classes in the game. It wouldn't surprise me to find the Adept being a better choice of class than a Monk, nor would the Warrior.
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At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level.
At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.whats that bout not bypassing DR?
that was the problem with monks in 3.0.
3.5 changed that. thank God
Sorry, but that's not really impressive. Impressive is something like smite evil, or at least letting the monk get through cold iron or silver DRs as he levels up.
and yet everyone always takes amulet of mighty fists and can get the enhancement bonus needed to overcome that DR. try again.
Sorry, but that's not really impressive. Impressive is something like smite evil, or at least letting the monk get through cold iron or silver DRs as he levels up.At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level.
At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.whats that bout not bypassing DR?
that was the problem with monks in 3.0.
3.5 changed that. thank God
Or the penetrating strike feats, that let fighters DPS a good portion of things like DR/epic, or DR/- (in addition to the ones monks ignore).
DPR is not the only part of combat. Mobility, defenses against magic, and a ton of other things play a huge factor as well.
And Paladins and Rangers (and some fighters, cavaliers, bards, etc) get a lot of that stuff too... or ways to duplicate/emulate them.
Heck, Animal Aspect (ranger 2) might as well be 'Monkitude - The Spell, now with Versatility!', and Paladins have monks beat hands down in the Saves department, IMO (not to mention the healing, support, and combat departments).
Other classes don't have (quite) everything the monk does, its true (or at least, all at once)... but its also a bad idea to act like monks have a monopoly on anything.
Here's a question: what do monks get that's wholly unique to them, and can't be found on another class, who gets more besides?
Monks can run away better than any other class in the game, at least until casters get teleport spells.
I say run away, because the Monk has Flurry of Misses, barely scratches a creature if he hits (and doesn't scratch at all if he's got DR), and often times can't grapple/trip/disarm, unless the creature is a humanoid wielding a weapon. Preferably not a giant as they get size modifiers.
At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level.
At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.whats that bout not bypassing DR?
that was the problem with monks in 3.0.
3.5 changed that. thank God
Wow, would you look at that, Stoneskin allows a caster to tank a Monk until 16th level. Yay!
....
So, we have cold iron, silver, good, evil and lawful DR the unarmed Monk is...
Minor nitpick but they can bypass lawful. I think you meant to say chaotic.
and thats what the enhancement bonus on the amulet does.
so the problem then isnt that monks suck, its that the amulet needs to be the same cost as a regular magic weapon.
It will be good to see your build and compare it to CR apropiate monsters.
Y'know, people keep going back to 'Flurry of Misses' like some kind of slogan and honestly, unless I'm fighting people constantly in full plate, I haven't had issues hitting creatures.
I'll start searching for the old character sheet. In the meantime, off the top of my head, I remember having a higher wisdom and strength with a medium constitution and okay dex. I felt that since I naturally gain AC and gain more from wisdom than dex, I would have a good all around AC with a better wisdom. I also enjoyed the headband of Wisdom as it doubles up offensively (Stunning Fist) and Defensively (your AC). I did use an archetype for flavor (the drunken monk), but this character was played till about level 11 before Ultimate Magic and Combat came out. If you want, I can just remake it to be a normal monk.
Also, Tels, you keep downplaying the fast movement but it is actually really useful. I've enjoyed being able to charge at out-of-the-way targets that make life hell for my team. Casters, ranged characters, and people trying to get away have been my targets with Stunning Fist. Furthermore, I like going in with a trip first on my flurry, then a stunning fist to make it easier to land. The fast movement has been very helpful to me as a monk player. Even against giants.
Now I'm not saying that the monk is perfect or doesn't have flaws. However, I am saying that fast movement is much more useful than many give it credit for.
and yet everyone always takes amulet of mighty fists and can get the enhancement bonus needed to overcome that DR. try again.
Ah, no. Magic weapons get to bypass DR based upon their enhancement bonus. The Amulet of Mighty Fists allows the natural attacks and unarmed strikes of the wearer to receive an enhancement bonus of between +1 and +5 (or special weapon properties, with the total not exceeding +5). But it is not a magic weapon; it is a wondrous item and therefore does not bypass DR. Other than magic.
James Jacobs said it best in the Ask James Jaoobs thread, but I don't have a link at the moment.
MA
DPR is not the only part of combat. Mobility, defenses against magic, and a ton of other things play a huge factor as well.
And Paladins and Rangers (and some fighters, cavaliers, bards, etc) get a lot of that stuff too... or ways to duplicate/emulate them.
Heck, Animal Aspect (ranger 2) might as well be 'Monkitude - The Spell, now with Versatility!', and Paladins have monks beat hands down in the Saves department, IMO (not to mention the healing, support, and combat departments).
Other classes don't have (quite) everything the monk does, its true (or at least, all at once)... but its also a bad idea to act like monks have a monopoly on anything.
Here's a question: what do monks get that's wholly unique to them, and can't be found on another class, who gets more besides?
You can point at any single ability and say "yeah" someone else can do that too with any class. Each class has a different mix. Rangers have a spell where they can do monk stuff for 1 minute per level... yay! What about the other 23 hours 43 minutes of the day? More important, how about the 1 round the ranger has to spend in combat if he didn't happen to know he was going to need that ability in advance?
Classes are a mix of abilities and limitations, I've run enough games where I've been 'foiled' by the mix of cool/ fun stuff to know the the mix of abilities the monks have work pretty well. I know... but you can't point to numbers which show the monk is awesome!! If you want numbers, play the fighter.
Dennis has a point. Arguably, a caster could emulate the role of another class with spells for a moment. A wizard could just summon a monster to be a fighter for him, and a cleric can cast a spell to find traps. However, a fighter and rogue respectively can do their roles without having to expend a caster's spell slot resource to do it.
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At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level.
Most combat classes have their first magic weapon by 3rd level, and they get an enhancement bonus, so at 4th level you are a level behind the other combat classes and a +1 to hit and damage behind as well.
At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
[sarcasm]OMG! DR Lawful! Wow that's...er...NO creatures in the Bestiary 1 whose DR you bypass. Gosh.[/sarcasm]
At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
Yes, and by 16th level most other combat classes have had a +5 or better weapon for several levels, so once again you are well behind the curve. Oh, and the AoMF? Costs a fortune to get at +5, and that means NO special properties. That's right, they can add Holy or Flaming or Keen, you get...+5 only. That's it, and you are always behind the other combat classes in total enhancement.
whats that bout not bypassing DR?
Clearly, that stuff about bypassing DR is a real problem if you compare the monk to anyone who fights for a living with appropriate gear.
Y'know, people keep going back to 'Flurry of Misses' like some kind of slogan and honestly, unless I'm fighting people constantly in full plate, I haven't had issues hitting creatures.It's one of those things that if you know the system you can almost negate, but it comes in three forms:
- MAD means your hitting stat may be a several points behind other melee classes.
- The AoMF is 2.5 times as expensive as a magic weapon, so for a given level your enhancement is usually at least a point behind.
- Your BAB is 3/4 or full-2, and you cannot improve it from this.
So add that up, and at any given level your attacks are in my experience at -3 to -6 behind an equivelant combat class. If you really pull out the stops, you can scrape it up to -3 at the absolute best (maybe -2 at the lowest and highest levels, but you are always down). The thing is, the penalties aren't compensated for by the multiple attacks (especially not if you have to move).
Then you factor in that they are probably doing a lot more damage to hit than you and can bypass DR easier...
Are there any attempts to just accept the DR problem with unarmed monks and devote resources towards increasing other abilities (with maneuver enhancing items, defensive boosts, etcetera)?
It seems to me that that's just the unarmed monk's weakness (just like most classes have one achilles heal save or something else they're not good at). That perhaps the problem stems from trying to negate ones point of natural weakness, which is generally an inferior strategy in life, if not in character design (which I'm pretty clueless about).
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Are there any attempts to just accept the DR problem with unarmed monks and devote resources towards increasing other abilities (with maneuver enhancing items, defensive boosts, etcetera)?
It seems to me that that's just the unarmed monk's weakness (just like most classes have one achilles heal save or something else they're not good at). That perhaps the problem stems from trying to negate ones point of natural weakness, which is generally an inferior strategy in life, if not in character design (which I'm pretty clueless about).
That would be fine if bypassing DR was the monk's only weakness.
That would be fine if bypassing DR was the monk's only weakness.
It seems to be the most commonly cited (especially for the unarmed monk type, which is what I was referring to).
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There's no new rules content that needs playtesting in Ultimate Equipment. No need to artificially complicate a product we already know how to make by adding in a playtest cycle to it.
Have you even begun to imagine the evil that even a first level aspiring henchman can do to a town of peasants with your woefully underpriced cats? With the release of cheap and accessible feline terror no commoner will ever be safe again!
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That would be fine if bypassing DR was the monk's only weakness.It seems to be the most commonly cited (especially for the unarmed monk type, which is what I was referring to).
Here are my list of monk problems:
1. Very MAD
2. Loses most of its offensive ability when forced to move more than five feet
3. Has many abilities that centre around mobility (see 2)
4. Problems overcoming DR unless it uses weapons
5. Can only flurry with sub par weapons
6. If flurrying with sub par weapons, must buy two of them (as of the recent clarification)
7. Most abilities are weaker than equivalent-level spells (slow fall, wholeness of body, fast movement...)
8. Some abilities are actually a hindrance (spell resistance being the number one offender)
9. More dependant on magic items than any other class (yes, even the fighter)
I didn't expect Ultimate Equipment to help with all of these, but it would have been nice to see some of the issues worked on. I'm still waiting on the developers to weigh in again on the flurry of blows issue as well. An item like this from Ultimate Equipment is just disheartening.
I say run away, because the Monk has Flurry of Misses, barely scratches a creature if he hits (and doesn't scratch at all if he's got DR), and often times can't grapple/trip/disarm, unless the creature is a humanoid wielding a weapon. Preferably not a giant as they get size modifiers.
Wrong. Maneuvre Master/Weapon Adept archetype Monks are possibly the best CMB trip/dirty trick etc build in the game (especially with the monk weapon double chained kama).
I do think, however, that monks need to be reviewed with the whole complicated flurry of blows mess that has everyone confused. That's my only gripe with Paizo. There are rules which desperately need tidying up/reviewed before releasing new material with things like HIPS and FOB needing clarification yesterday. Apart from that, I think they are the best thing that ever happened to roleplaying gaming industry.
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
how is monk flurry not TWF? other than the "as if using" part?
The as if part: You don't use like or as to compare something to itself.
The any combination part
The A special monk weapon part
You can probably thank the lack of playtesting lately to much of the vitriol you saw in the forums during said playtests. People seem to be unable to give feedback and criticism without insulting each other and the devs.No, Zark.
Paizo used to do long, involved public playtests of new material. That's one of the primary reasons this community was created. Problems like this were quickly found and dealt with.
The less public playtesting Paizo does the more problems arise with how new material interacts with old material.
nope.
There's no new rules content that needs playtesting in Ultimate Equipment. No need to artificially complicate a product we already know how to make by adding in a playtest cycle to it.
(Waits for someone snarky to post, "Well, Paizo DOESN'T know how to make magic items and here's my list of 20 published magic items that prove that, so maybe they SHOULD have playtested Ultimate Equipment." Said post being a sterling example as to why a playtest of a big book of magic items that don't really add any new types of rules to the game (no more so than a Bestiary adds) would be a bad idea.)
Snarky post? You won't get any from me. What you said make perfect sense. Perhaps strage coming from me since I made some snark posts and some bad jerk posts back in that thread that 'shall not named'. My sincere apologies for that.
I say run away, because the Monk has Flurry of Misses, barely scratches a creature if he hits (and doesn't scratch at all if he's got DR), and often times can't grapple/trip/disarm, unless the creature is a humanoid wielding a weapon. Preferably not a giant as they get size modifiers.Wrong. Maneuvre Master/Weapon Adept archetype Monks are possibly the best CMB trip/dirty trick etc build in the game (especially with the monk weapon double chained kama).
I do think, however, that monks need to be reviewed with the whole complicated flurry of blows mess that has everyone confused. That's my only gripe with Paizo. There are rules which desperately need tidying up/reviewed before releasing new material with things like HIPS and FOB needing clarification yesterday. Apart from that, I think they are the best thing that ever happened to roleplaying gaming industry.
Many of the arguments are about the base class and that the archetypes (especially the Qinggong Monk) are simply patches to a broken class.
This..., again:
The devs have stated that any fixes to monk will not be "stealth fix via items", and will be undertaken after GenCon (read: long after UE was finalized), so anybody expecting UE to be the "Monk Fix Book" clearly needs some training in expectation management. Also, nerdrage control.
Gorby may not be diplomatic, but he is right.
The Devs know the monk needs a fix. It will not be "stealth fix via items", and it will be undertaken later. And people should cool down.
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
how is monk flurry not TWF? other than the "as if using" part?
The as if part: You don't use like or as to compare something to itself.
The any combination part
The A special monk weapon part
actually you do. thats how pathfinder is written, thats how 3.5 was written, and even 3.0. as if in these games is basically the same as you are using this feat, with the prescribed exceptions. many classes get feats and get rules that allow them to not only use those feats, but to use them in a different way than what the feat says in the text.
for example, the gunslinger's gunslinger initiative which allows them to draw a weapon when they roll initiative if they have the quick draw feat. or the inquisitor's ability to allow other people to gain temporary access to team work feats so that the inquisitor can benefit from them. or the cavalier's ability to allow players to USE teamwork feats even though they dont have them. this is no exception.
but with that im dun with this thread. it turned into another monk is crappy thread and thats not what it was supposed to be for and frankly im tired of hearing it seeing as how the class isnt bad because ive seen it used effectively and it can even be broken. i think the monk is fine as is. its basically the same thing that all the shaman players did in WOW a few years back about their totems. they want the whole world, and when they get that, they want more. and with that good night. enjoy your argument.
Or will they throw backwardscomp into the dustbin and present us a whole new Monk? With Qinggong style a'la carte abilities and furry of blows that's more a special attack type than some pseudo-twf-weirdness?
Time will tell! Film at eleven.
Kinda like the one I designed in Beta...(rough draft, but it was there...I like to think that is where the Qinggong monk ideas came from.)
I fixed the majority of the issues with the monk as a draft.
The problem with no monk fix in UE is that part of the monk's problem is equipment.
I agree, the whole 'equipment dependency' is part of D&D though. Question is do you 'fix' the monk through gear or through fixing the base class to be less gear dependent? I think Paizo must be going for the latter as they certainly haven't gone for the former.
AoMF is priced at least 25% higher than it should be for the monk and has a lower enhancement cap than real magic weapons. If the flurry nerf is rolled back the AoMF is priced 150% higher than it should be for the monk. Any monk fix that doesn't either reprice or replace the AoMF is not a complete fix.
The price is only half the problem, the fact it's limited to +5 total is the other half.
The AoMF is also overpriced for natural attacks. The best natural attack string I'm aware of that a PC can get is claw-claw-bite-tail. That's an inferior attack string to a level 6 archer. Since wildshape is only available at level 4 there's only two levels of potential superior enhancement economy and that only if the amulet were priced at 2k for +1. Priced at 4k for +1 TWF builds also make a mockery of the "many" attacks available for natural weapons builds.
Actually, I will say that that the AoMF is realistically priced for natural weapons. Bear in mind that a 12-headed hydra gets twelve magic weapons out of it, and it makes perfect sense for it to be the way it is. The problem is that an item originally designed for monks is better for other classes than it is for monks. Same seems to be true of just about everything made for monks.
The AoMF also has a slot collision with another item that is critical to properly scaling AC for front liners. While monks get some compensation it doesn't cover the lack of shield bonuses, base armor value, and enhancement to natural armor. 3/4 of the AC boosters is enough to keep pace with medium BAB enemies at least. Natural attack users have no such compensation, putting them down two of the four AC boosters unless they're an alchemist with an extra limb to use for a shield. This means the AoMF is really priced at 6k for natural attack builds when even for them 4k is more appropriate and even 2k is defensible in comparison to the benefits archers can get from an enhancement bonus on a single weapon.
Well I haven't heard of AC being a problem for monks, ever, even with the AoMF. Generally they can keep pace with a sword & board fighter quite well in the AC stakes if they put their minds to it. That the AoMF takes out the neck slot requiring either a specialist item or a choice between defence and offence is reasonable in the light of this. However, it would have to be added that the other limits on the AoMF such as it's price and enhancement cap mean that the thing is not delivering for what you have to give up.
@Xaaon of Korvosa,
Your monk is OK, but he doesn't fix the major monk problem of lack of enhancement.
I did my own monk re-write, and fixed the issue by giving the monk flurry of blows separate from TWF (no full BAB with it), 3/4 BAB with weapon training on top, ki-strike that delivers an increasing enhancement and 'fixing' the unarmed damage at 1d6, with the option to either increase the dice or increase the threat range or focus on weapons as levels increase. I also did some messing about with skills and the like to make the monk more customisable. Did I go to far? Perhaps, though I don;t think so, but the re-write does showcase some ideas and how they could be applied to make the monk more playable.
I truly believe that we will never see this new re-written Pathfinder Monk until Paizo releases their next edition of the Pathfinder game.
Otherwise I don't see them completely changing a class in the Core Rulebook using Errata. Sorry, just don't see it.
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I truly believe that we will never see this new re-written Pathfinder Monk until Paizo releases their next edition of the Pathfinder game.
Otherwise I don't see them completely changing a class in the Core Rulebook using Errata. Sorry, just don't see it.
Yeah, they never change things oh wait Paladin smite.
Yeah, they never change things oh wait Paladin smite.I truly believe that we will never see this new re-written Pathfinder Monk until Paizo releases their next edition of the Pathfinder game.
Otherwise I don't see them completely changing a class in the Core Rulebook using Errata. Sorry, just don't see it.
Yeah, you're right! A slight adjustment to a single class feature IS TOTALLY THE SAME as rewriting an entire class.
Duh, how could I be so stupid. Gorb, you toothy bag of genius, how could I not see it?
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All I'm saying that a blanket statement "they'll never do X" has little grounds to support it, especially when there are precedents for rules changes after something was put in print. And actually, there were posts from Jason about plans for revisiting the Monk issues, and Paizo employees are not known to mislead the fanbase.
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I can think of a number of options, Ravennus, and half-way house fixes that would be an improvement if they don't actually completely fix the class. They could put in a basic fix now and then deliver a really good class in 2.0...but that assumes that there will be a 2.0, of which I am not sure.
Another possibility is a specialist book; something just for the monk and all it's archetypes (because let's face it, any overhaul of the monk needs an overhaul of the archetypes as they cannot be unaffected).
The monk has three fundamental problems:
1) Lack of enhancement on the unarmed strike, which is presented as their primary weapon. Until it gets this it isn't competing with anything.
2) MADness. They fixed the paladin's MAD problems, it now hinges just on strength (dexterity in some cases) and charisma. The monk should hinge on dexterity (strength in some cases) and wisdom, but ends up needing strength, constitution and in some cases intelligence as well just to function.
3) A shedload of abilities that are not fit for purpose, or that fail completely to work in conjunction with one another (or at all as intended) without a crippling feat tax. Fast movement and flurry of blows, abundant step (needs Dimensional Agility), wholeness of body (a waste of ki), diamond soul (look, enemy spells bounce off me, shame I can't be buffed any more) and so on.
1) is primary. A fix for 2) would be greatly appreciated. Some work on 3) would be nice.
There are no precedent for rules changes of this kind of magnitude, even in previous editions.
Hell, it's how we got 3.5 edition.
But whatever Gorb. I gave my opinion, nothing more. I wasn't claiming special insider knowledge.
BTW, I noticed you've been especially touchy lately... did a pet or relative die recently?
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There are no precedent for rules changes of this kind of magnitude, even in previous editions.
Hell, it's how we got 3.5 edition.
But whatever Gorb. I gave my opinion, nothing more. I wasn't claiming special insider knowledge.
BTW, I noticed you've been especially touchy lately... did a pet or relative die recently?
3.5 has had many precedents that Pathfinder doesn't share, like doing all non-core rules closed content, not using 3PP sources or never touching things beyond errating obvious mathematical mistakes. I'm inclined to believe Jason that when says he'll look into the Monk, he'll do it.
I'm never touchy. I'm always thriving on adversity. If I were touchy, I would run away from this forum after a week or so. But I'm here to stay, and you're all locked in with me. Brouhahahaha.
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Another possibility is a specialist book; something just for the monk and all it's archetypes (because let's face it, any overhaul of the monk needs an overhaul of the archetypes as they cannot be unaffected).
This has been the big source of my doubt that a monk re-write would finally ditch backwards compatitibility, what with it having to remain compatible with everything that came out after the Core for the mnnk. I can't help but feel like that is more of an obstacle to a rewrite than losing 3.x compatibility.
A specialist-type book for the monk? That would be a dream come true.
Gorb's just like that. He can be sarcastic, often thinks he's funnier than he is, and can come across as a bit of a jerk to stir the pot, but on the whole there's an OK guy in there somewhere (j/k).
One change I do want to see with the monk is adding proficiency to all monk weapons. I think it's a bit odd that the unarmed fighter archetype can be proficient with all monk weapons but not the monk.
If Paizo said they will fix the Monk soon, wouldn't it be stupid to release special Monk boosting items just beforehand because that would only limit you in your design choices afterwards?
In other words: isn't that a GOOD SIGN for the Monk?
Another possibility is a specialist book; something just for the monk and all it's archetypes (because let's face it, any overhaul of the monk needs an overhaul of the archetypes as they cannot be unaffected).
This has been the big source of my doubt that a monk re-write would finally ditch backwards compatitibility, what with it having to remain compatible with everything that came out after the Core for the mnnk. I can't help but feel like that is more of an obstacle to a rewrite than losing 3.x compatibility.
A specialist-type book for the monk? That would be a dream come true.
I don't think it would ditch backward compatibility, after all when you compare the Pathfinder paladin to the 3.5 paladin, there are huge changes in content but not in feel; abilities that didn't really work were replaced with abilities that do. Yet the paladin is still backward-compatible, because just about everything that you get on the original paladin is in the new paladin.
If you changed, say, abundant step to include the text from Dimensional Agility, it won't make the feat redundant and it won't break existing monk builds; they would probably just have an extra feat to reassign. Backward compatibility works when there is nothing (or very little) taken away, but you can add as much as you like.
But yes, a specialist book would not be a bad way to go. The problem as I understand it is that otherwise the existing monk's word-limit of 2500 words has to apply, and it's very hard to do a meaningful re-write within those limits (believe me, I have tried) especially as the fixes will require clarification on existing abilities, which means more words.
Further, any meaningful changes in the monk would likely have a knock-on effect on any archetypes, so these would also have to be errata'd (and face it, some were really badly designed in the first place - monk of the healing hand, I a looking at you). Easier to bundle it all up in one release, really. On the plus side, this is not a Pathfinder 1.5 situation, only things pertaining to the monk need to be changed, so it's something I think Paizo can get away with.
Should they charge for it? Well, I think that if they release it in print yes, but they could do a free PDF as well, because it is a kind of errata. I'd certainly pay to get the print version. Or they could make it a new supplement and add some new stuff - maybe new style feats, new items that actually work for monks better than for anyone else, that kind of thing, and really go to town on it. It doesn't have to be power creep for every class, either, just something to bring the monk up to speed with the other classes.
Edit: Micman, I think you are probably right. I was annoyed that the only items 'for the monk' turned out to be 'for the monk but better for anyone else' when I saw them, but really if they are actually going to to do a meaningful fix it does make sense not to limit themselves. So I wait with baited breath...