FWIW, I'm surprised that people have such a strong negative opinion based primarily on the mundane equipment/weapons section. I just assumed that, since the book is mostly magic items, people would be focused more on the magic item section.
Well, I am one of the ones that bought this primarily for the mundane equipment. Why? Well, one of my DMs tends to prefer more low magic games. We have made some house rules to expand what Masterwork items can do, but we were hoping for some official support. The other DM tends to stylize more unique items to his campaign and frowns upon people surveying magic item books and trying to scrounge their own personal magic armory.
So yea, mundane equipment is what I am most interested in. *shrugs* Well, looks like I have the first few chapters and I will probably try to sit down and look through what other books we have to get what is missing in one place and slip it into the back of the book to curb my OCD some.
Anyways, I am glad the Sledge is now a freaking improvised 2d6 Earth Breaker. If you will excuse me, my railroad worker has some dirty German butchers to take care of with it.
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Yeah, the kits had a lot of potential. Instead, they are crap in terms of making equipping characters quickly and more easily. The numbers for many of them are way off, which means I'm still forced to look up cost and weight values.
You can't just buy them "as is" on account of the errors. At the moment, they're little better than listed recommendations.
"Playing a fighter? Use these mundane items to round out your character."
*derisive snort*
Stay classy.
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Yeah, the kits had a lot of potential. Instead, they are crap in terms of making equipping characters quickly and more easily. The numbers for many of them are way off, which means I'm still forced to look up cost and weight values.
You can't just buy them "as is" on account of the errors. At the moment, they're little better than listed recommendations.
"Playing a fighter? Use these mundane items to round out your character."
*derisive snort*
The price and weight are not in error. They are fully intentionally at those values due to bulk discount and... Actually I'm not going to say why the weight is lower because you will try to cheese it :p
The weights take into account small and medium creatures, to say the least.
Use them as-is.
Ash_Gazn: I agree. The Socket Bayonet was introduced in/around the 1670s which I think is still within the realm of PF gun technology. In my games I would introduce a Socket Bayonet for a higher price (not sure what, Im just making an idea atm).
However, I would probably assign some penalty to reloading quickly. Maybe a 1 increase on muzzleloader misfires since reloading it while the bayonet is attached is tricky and doing it quickly might produce more errors (worried more about cutting yourself than putting everything down the barrel correctly).
- Gauss
The offset, ring, or socket bayonet was perfected and introduced after the Jacobite Rebellion of 1687 (the plug bayonet contributed to several defeats the English suffered), I believe, at least in the British army. By 1691 they were standard issue in the English army. By the early 1700s their use had spread to the continent and across Europe.
It might have been perfected by 1687 but one source I found stated it was created a decade earlier. :) Still, at this point anything within a decade (when it was centuries ago) is close enough. :D
- Gauss
True enough, what I looked up indicated that this was when it became general issue, before which the bayonets had a habit of falling off the end of the gun - that doesn't mean it wasn't about before then.
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The price and weight are not in error. They are fully intentionally at those values due to bulk discount and... Actually I'm not going to say why the weight is lower because you will try to cheese it :p
The weights take into account small and medium creatures, to say the least.
Use them as-is.
I don't believe I said they were an error--I've seen the developers less-than-satisfactory explanation. I said they weren't really usable as written.
Once they change the weight values and price values, even intentionally, it makes it impossible to determine how much weight or value is left once you start breaking it up. How much is a fighter's kit worth on the resale market once he's eaten all of the rations? How much does it weigh against his encumbrance?
Since the numbers don't use the accepted normal values, and the new reduced values for the individual components aren't spell out for us, no one can answer those questions. Error or not, it's still a gap in the rules.
Since you can't really use them without encountering these kinds of problems, you are only left with the default values; hence, why they are little more than glorified lists of item recommendations.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Since you can't really use them without encountering these kinds of problems, you are only left with the default values; hence, why they are little more than glorified lists of item recommendations.
Most people I know have no issues with this. You can't use them. Please don't try and project your obsession with this sort of detail on the rest of the planet.
Since you can't really use them without encountering these kinds of problems, you are only left with the default values; hence, why they are little more than glorified lists of item recommendations.Most people I know have no issues with this. You can't use them. Please don't try and project your obsession with this sort of detail on the rest of the planet.
Say what you will, but I'm not alone in this. Others brought up this problem well before me, I just happen to be in agreement with them.
I think I've only seen people confused by it, but don't recall seeing anyone else who says they can't be used. Not saying they don't exist, but...
The game's giving you an advantage for buying the kits. Do what you do best, and figure out the repercussions of that ;)
Do what you do best, and figure out the repercussions of that ;)
Mass confusion and hysteria I tell you!
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Since you can't really use them without encountering these kinds of problems, you are only left with the default values; hence, why they are little more than glorified lists of item recommendations.Most people I know have no issues with this. You can't use them. Please don't try and project your obsession with this sort of detail on the rest of the planet.
I don't like the "averaged" weights even if they can easily be explained saying that having the stuff better packaged allow you to carry more easily, so creating a lower encumbrance without a real reduction in weight but it isn't something game breaking.
I don't think that putting 2 rows, one with the weight and cost for small characters and one for medium characters would have required so much work or generated so much confusion.
All we really need is to know how the weight was averaged. Then if we lose an item of gear, we can use the same formula to reaverage the weight of remaining gear.
I like the idea of "careful packaging" helping lower encumbrance in general. Especially since there's a lot of stuff that weighs a "pound" where the weight is clearly rounded up for simplicity's sake, it kind of counteracts that. We just need a means of doing it for ourselves.
Can't you just use a percentage? If the kit weighs 90% of what the items 'should' add to and you lose something - cross off 90% of that item's weight.
I cant help thinking that it isnt going to matter often enough to be an issue in anything other than an aesthetic sense (ie it's nice to have all the rules spelled out - it's just also impossible).
I cant help thinking that it isnt going to matter often enough to be an issue in anything other than an aesthetic sense (ie it's nice to have all the rules spelled out - it's just also impossible).
I have to agree with Steve here. In the big picture of the game this seems to be a very minor issue. While I would agree it would have been nice for it to have made sense without hand waving, it's not worth the worry in my opinion.
The bigger issue for weights and prices that are not a simple sum of the constituent pieces is that programs like HeroLab that track the encumbrance and costs for you cannot easily interchange replacements for lost gear.
It is easy enough to hand-wave at the table, but if you get used to keeping your records in a software package that carries that level of detail, it needs to be updated to include stuff like that.
Not necessarily. They can do what the 4e character builder did and include the kit for the price but just give you all the stuff under the description of the kit. It's pretty easy, actually.
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Solution: don't use encumbrance. :p
Solution: don't use encumbrance. :p
As stated above, that's not an option if you're using HeroLab. It automatically adjusts your speed, skills, etc, for encumbrance. And frankly, if I'm going to "not use" something, it'll be an add-on kit rather than part of the core rules.
I actually like encumbrance, having come up in a group that ignored it to the extent that it made my brain hurt thinking about the halfling rogue carrying 2 sets of full plate, 3 steel shields, 12 different weapons, and 40,000 gp in his backpack.
Encumbrance doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing rules concept. If said halfling is obviously carrying too much, common sense says his movement should be reduced. No need to track every tenth of a pound.
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Solution: don't use encumbrance. :pAs stated above, that's not an option if you're using HeroLab. It automatically adjusts your speed, skills, etc, for encumbrance. And frankly, if I'm going to "not use" something, it'll be an add-on kit rather than part of the core rules.
I actually like encumbrance, having come up in a group that ignored it to the extent that it made my brain hurt thinking about the halfling rogue carrying 2 sets of full plate, 3 steel shields, 12 different weapons, and 40,000 gp in his backpack.
In the character settings of Hero lab, under optional rules there is the option "no encumbrance". You can apply it even after character creation.
But I prefer to use the encumbrance rules, hauling around anything you want is too convenient.
In the character settings of Hero lab, under optional rules there is the option "no encumbrance". You can apply it even after character creation.
Thanks; wasn't aware of that.
As stated before, however, I approve of the encumbrance rules. A PC with low Str shouldn't be able to carry as much as one with high Str, just like a PC with low Cha shouldn't gain NPC favor as easily as one with high Cha. Whether the character is a halfling or a half-orc, using the encumbrance rules gives the GM a tool better than "eyeballing it" to determine when someone is carrying too much.
Like I said, though, I come from a background of an overly handwave-y group, so I appreciate hard rules. Someone coming from a background of an overly rules-focused group will probably have a very different reaction.
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Solution: don't use encumbrance. :p
One is then tempted to ask why it was included in the first place?
That's not a solution, Sean. That's a house rule. Let's not confuse the two.
As written the kit pricing and weights are still partially incompatible with the existent Core rules.
Why is anything ever incompatible with the core rules? It only causes problems.
Solution: don't use encumbrance. :pOne is then tempted to ask why it was included in the first place?
Say it with me! Backwards Compatibility!
;p
I like Steve Geddes' suggestion to just apply a straight up percentage. That's also something you could plug into a character generator as well. It'll be easier to do in some generators than others but hopefully not impossible.
I thought roleplaying games were supposed to be fun, intuitive, and simple.
Nothing Geddes suggested is any of those.
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Solution: don't use encumbrance. :pOne is then tempted to ask why it was included in the first place?
1) Backwards compatibility with 3.5.
2) To avoid the absurdness of a character carrying 20 looted sets of armor to sell back in town.That's not a solution, Sean. That's a house rule. Let's not confuse the two.
A house rule is a solution if it solves the problem.
As written the kit pricing and weights are still partially incompatible with the existent Core rules.
Why is anything ever incompatible with the core rules? It only causes problems.
If you're nitpicking whether or not the weight of your eaten rations change your movement rate, you're going out of your way to find problems with your character. When you start focusing on "realism" at the expense of "having heroic adventures," you've lost sight of the goal.
The game is not a realistic combat simulator. IRL, people don't fight at optimal capacity whether they're at full health (max hp) or barely standing (1 hp). IRL, people can't fight for hours at a time without becoming fatigued or exhausted.
The game also is not a realistic measure of carrying capacity and its effect on your speed. IRL, people don't have the same speed and agility when carrying 33 pounds as they do when carrying 0 pounds. IRL, people don't suddenly get 33% slower (from speed 30 to speed 20) and 15% less agile (from no encumbrance penalty to a –3 penalty) if they're carrying 34 pounds instead of 33 pounds. IRL, people don't run 25% slower (from x4 to x3) if they're carrying 67 pounds instead of 66 pounds.
The game makes assumptions and builds in abstractions to make playing it run more smoothly, despite the loss of "realistic" detail. You're going out of your way to notice the flaws in the simulation. You win at finding things that aren't relevant to slaying monsters and creating epic stories! Congrats!
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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When you start focusing on "realism" at the expense of "having heroic adventures," you've lost sight of the goal.
....
You win at finding things that aren't relevant to slaying monsters and creating epic stories! Congrats!
Favorited so hard!
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Favorited so hard!
I'm with him and favorited like I've ne'er favorited before.
Creative Director
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That's not a solution, Sean. That's a house rule. Let's not confuse the two.
As written the kit pricing and weights are still partially incompatible with the existent Core rules.
Why is anything ever incompatible with the core rules? It only causes problems.
I'd like to further add weight to Sean's reply.
A house rule IS a solution. It's often the BEST solution, since the game plays differently in different regions for different groups.
Think of the rules themselves as the English language. House rules, in this metaphor, are like accents. Someone from the South is gonna sound different than someone from New York, and both of them will sound different from someone from Wisconsin, and they'll all sound different than someone from the west coast. But they're all speaking the same language, and they can all use that language to interact. Same goes for house rules. They're regionalisms to the rules themselves, only in this case, the "regions" are simply different home games.
No one accent is right or wrong, and in fact, accents are an important and valuable part of a region's culture.
Same goes for house rules.
You can certainly strive to NOT have an accent—newscasters do that, for example. Doesn't make it the only choice or even the right choice, but if you DO strive to not have an accent (or in this case, play strictly by the rules)... I feel like that game loses an important part of its charm and personality.
Hey, my natural midwestern accent-less-ness takes exception to that!
;)
My wife and I are originally from Ohio...now that I moved out to California for a few years...I can definitely hear the midwestern accent. I can hear my wife pronounce it "Ahia" instead of "Ohio" ^-^
A house rule IS a solution. It's often the BEST solution, since the game plays differently in different regions for different groups.
I agree, with one exception: if everyone has to house-rule it for it to work, then it really should have been fixed at source.
Hey, my natural midwestern accent-less-ness takes exception to that!
Excuse me, but as an American you have an accent. I, on the other hand, speak English like a native and therefore without an accent.
It's the way Ohioans say A's too. It's just weird.
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No two groups on this planet play D&D the same way. I almost wanted to state that my groups are 100% by the book, and then I remembered my house rules (counterspelling is an immediate action that requires no readying, and there's a Knockin' on Heaven's Door rule that says PCs die at beginning of their next turn, giving the party one last hail mary shot to save a dying comrade).
What was that thing called, where a house rule doesn't fix the underlying problem within the rules? People say it all the time on these and other roleplaying boards, but it escapes me at the moment.
It amazes me to see developers falling into the same trap.
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Hey, my natural midwestern accent-less-ness takes exception to that!Excuse me, but as an American you have an accent. I, on the other hand, speak English like a native and therefore without an accent.
"The language is English. I am English. Therefore it is my interpretation that is correct, you colonial heathen." ~ "Steed", The Dresden Files: Turn Coat
Everyone has an accent, even the Queen of Scotland, Elizabeth or Betty has an accent and I bet she speaks awfi gud inglish!
"Orf wiv 'is 'ead!"
Herolab has an option that allows you to turn off encumbranceSolution: don't use encumbrance. :pAs stated above, that's not an option if you're using HeroLab. It automatically adjusts your speed, skills, etc, for encumbrance. And frankly, if I'm going to "not use" something, it'll be an add-on kit rather than part of the core rules.
I actually like encumbrance, having come up in a group that ignored it to the extent that it made my brain hurt thinking about the halfling rogue carrying 2 sets of full plate, 3 steel shields, 12 different weapons, and 40,000 gp in his backpack.
It also has an option to place items into a "drop on the floor" container and those items do nto count for encombrance. I use this to show items left at camp for example. That way super heavy items can be left on (armor for example) and others could be "turned off" if you wished.
@Sean K Reynolds: Thanks for the great post. It really reminds us the whole point of the games.