Or the Eidolon and Summoner can save that $1000+ and just get the Pounce evolution for more than once per day *shrug*
Honestly, the shirt looks like another "must have" item, yet more power creep. I do agree that the monk gets more out of this item than any other class, which is unusual.
I also see a problem with the shirt. Namely the idea of replacing it after every battle.
BUT, I think that is easily fixed by:
A) Throwing a hard object of moderate weight (such as a book) at the player that tries that cheese.B) Houseruling that the shirt has a 24hour attunement.
My real problem is Feather Step Slippers. For a mind boggling price of 2000gp completely negates two feats (Nimble Steps and Acrobatic Moves).
I get that they were based off of a spell. However, they are simply too inexpensive for what they do.
- Gauss
The houserule is an easy fix or just raise the price. I don't think it is broken or even problematic. Especially with a barbarian being able to pounce once per encounter, or twice per encounter if he has Roused Anger rage power. If she takes dips in oracle he can do it at will same if she takes two levels Horizon Walker.
Not to mention the Dimensional Dervish feat that lets the monks, bards, Magus, and other (such as Clerics with the travel domain), use dimension door and full attack. And as pointed out by Odraude Eidolons can get the Pounce evolution.
Notice that spell casters get access to stuff that equals 1000 gp = once per day.
Rods with a 3000 gp cost have 3 uses per day. That equals 1 use = 1000 gp. And they are slotless. Reach rod + vampiric touch is a nice one.
Pearl of power, 1 level is 1000 gp. Another slotless item. One of the items that lets the Magus (and other casters) go nova since you can have infinite number of pearls.
Edit:
All in all. Yes it is a good item, and I wouldn't be surprised if we will get errata on the price, but it is far from broken.
I agree the Feather Step Slippers could cost more, but it's a feet slot that many like to use for other stuff. Probably cheap since it is based on a first level spell and it is not something that will come in use every encounter or even every game session. and to be honest Nimble Steps and Acrobatic Moves are two very weak feats. That said, feather step was one of two buffs my bard always cast of the fighter and on the rogue (The other being heroism). With a rod of Extend Spell they were almost always on. You know the rod that cost 3000 gp ;-)
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Honestly, the shirt looks like another "must have" item, yet more power creep.
Just like rods, pearl of power and all other candy casters get.
I do agree that the monk gets more out of this item than any other class, which is unusual.
And this is a good thing.
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I also see a problem with the shirt. Namely the idea of replacing it after every battle.
BUT, I think that is easily fixed by:
A) Throwing a hard object of moderate weight (such as a book) at the player that tries that cheese.B) Houseruling that the shirt has a 24hour attunement.
My real problem is Feather Step Slippers. For a mind boggling price of 2000gp completely negates two feats (Nimble Steps and Acrobatic Moves).
I get that they were based off of a spell. However, they are simply too inexpensive for what they do.
- Gauss
The houserule is an easy fix or just raise the price. I don't think it is broken or even problematic. Especially with a barbarian being able to pounce once per encounter, or twice per encounter if he has Roused Anger rage power. If she takes dips in oracle he can do it at will same if she takes two levels Horizon Walker.
Not to mention the Dimensional Dervish feat that lets the monks, bards, Magus, and other (such as Clerics with the travel domain), use dimension door and full attack. And as pointed out by Odraude Eidolons can get the Pounce evolution.
Notice that spell casters get access to stuff that equals 1000 gp = once per day.
Rods with a 3000 gp cost have 3 uses per day. That equals 1 use = 1000 gp. And they are slotless. Reach rod + vampiric touch is a nice one.Pearl of power, 1 level is 1000 gp. Another slotless item. One of the items that lets the Magus (and other casters) go nova since you can have infinite number of pearls.
Edit:
All in all. Yes it is a good item, and I wouldn't be surprised if we will get errata on the price, but it is far from broken.I agree the Feather Step Slippers could cost more, but it's a feet slot that many like to use for other stuff. Probably cheap since it is based on a first level spell and it is not something that will come in use every encounter or even every game session. and to be honest Nimble Steps and Acrobatic Moves are two very weak feats. That said, feather step was...
You think only of the pounce thing, but it do much more. It mess with action economy, and that change how the game work for all character.
Smart BEEG? Buy one and use it to flee when needed. If I am flying and get a extra move to add to my Withdraw maneuver there is very little that can catch me unless he benefit from the same item. That become even more powerful if I am under the effect of a haste spell.
On foot: use the shirt for your first move, eat one AoO with full bonuses to AC, then run away at x4.
Magus: Move and use spell combat
Eidolon: move and full attack
Everyone: use any action that require a move action as a swift action
The shirt become a mandatory item for anyone with a modicum of intelligence while big, dumb, bruisers monsters become even weaker.
Messing with action economy is a major undertaking. allowing that for 1.000 gp is a great way to change how the game work for people that know of that item.
I'm with Diego here, it's the action economy that's been messed with. Put it this way, it emulates the psionic power 'hustle' which is a 2nd level psychic warrior power, usable at 5th level. That would make the item worth 3,600gp according to the magic item creation guidelines for a 1/day use item. It's basically way to cheap for what it does.
You think only of the pounce thing, but it do much more. It mess with action economy, and that change how the game work for all character.
Smart BEEG? Buy one and use it to flee when needed. If I am flying and get a extra move to add to my Withdraw maneuver there is very little that can catch me unless he benefit from the same item. That become even more powerful if I am under the effect of a haste spell.
On foot: use the shirt for your first move, eat one AoO with full bonuses to AC, then run away at x4.
Magus: Move and use spell combat
Eidolon: move and full attack
Everyone: use any action that require a move action as a swift action
The shirt become a mandatory item for anyone with a modicum of intelligence while big, dumb, bruisers monsters become even weaker.
Messing with action economy is a major undertaking. allowing that for 1.000 gp is a great way to change how the game work for people that know of that item.
You got some points. It mess with action economy. But magic tend to mess with things and I think this item is meant to mess with action economy. If that is a bad or god thing is a matter of taste.
I do agree the item should have been designed differently. I'm not fond of how the item can be abused in that it can be used for other stuff than 'pounce'. If it just had granted you pounce once per day it would be all right, but there are side effects with it that I too don't like. These side effects would be of no problem if it was only once per day, but since you can swap shirts it becomes problematic.My biggest issue is the use of it during the surprise round and when you want to escape. I have no problem what so ever with the pounce thing although I agree move + full attack option is better than pounce.
As for bringing in the Magus and Eidolon, I would like to point out that those two classes already are considered by many to be broken so it's hardly this items fault that they are over powered.
So yes, you have some god points. I hope they fix it by just granting the user pounce once per day since move + full attack is even more powerful than pounce. I actually would be OK if you could change shirt and use pounce once per encounter, but an increase in price is probably not unreasonable. Be it 2000 gp or 3600 gp. That said I would like to point out that stuff like rod of reach spell also change action economy so does rod of quicken spell. And pearl of power change resource management. Magic items messes with stuff.
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Can you explain how a rod of metamagic change action economy (with the exception of a rod of quicken)?
(Not that I don't agree that they are problematic items, I have removed them from my game, giving instead primers that allow people to memorize/cast spells like they had the appropriate feat, with all the costs of using the feat)
Can you explain how a rod of metamagic change action economy (with the exception of a rod of quicken)?
Reach rod saves you a move (and also helps you avoid AoO/concetration checks).
BTW, I love rods and hate them. So easy to abuse. Not only does it grant you a feat for free, but it doesn't increase the spell level of the spell and you can have multiple rods.
My casters usually have 2 Silent rods, 2 or 3 extend rod of and 2 quicken rods (if I can afford it).
Extended rods and silent rods are rock solid choices :-)
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I agree that the Quickrunner's Shirt is badly in need of an errata nerfing as written now.
I'd recommend adding a 24-hour attunement period and increase the price to 4,000GP.
Even then, it becomes something that is too good not to take, especially seeing as the Chest slot is one that is traditionally overlooked and doesn't have the competition seen in areas like the shoulders or helmet slot.
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People also miscategorize entire arguments in attempts to make those they disagree with look foolish.
I agree that the Quickrunner's Shirt is badly in need of an errata nerfing as written now.
I'd recommend adding a 24-hour attunement period and increase the price to 4,000GP.
Even then, it becomes something that is too good not to take, especially seeing as the Chest slot is one that is traditionally overlooked and doesn't have the competition seen in areas like the shoulders or helmet slot.
If there is anything in my post that comes off as jerkish it is unintentional. I fully respect that we might not agree or that we might not find a common ground.
I have a hard time understanding the need to nerf it and raise the price and still claiming it even then is too good.
In order to establish if a power or an item is too good you got to look at the context. Too good compared to what? There are probably items, feats, spells or abilities in Pathfinder that a would been considered too good had it been introduced in 3.5. The Paladins smite evil is probably such a thing. And there are probably stuff in 3.5 (including the supplement books) that are considered broken in Pathfinder. Stuff like Energy Substitution, Rapid meta magic, Steadfast Determination, Force of Personality, Hamstring, Devoted Performer, Extra smite evil, etc. The reason extra smite would be broken in Pathfinder is obviously because smite evil has dramatically changed from 3.5. Compare what a Pathfinder Paladin vs. a 3.5 Paladin can do, and compare what they both can do vs. other classes in their game.
There are feats in 3.5 that let melee dudes move and make more than one attack. Can't remember them all but some are probably too good but others like Dual Strike are perfectly fine. None of those feats made it to Pathfinder. Perhaps some where considered to be good and perhaps there are other reasons. Want is clear however is that a lot of people who like to play melee characters have waited for an ability or feat that let them move + full attack or even just move + attack more than once. Pounce rescued the barbarian, the Paladin doesn't really need it and the Ranger, fighter, rogue etc is still waiting. Quickrunner's Shirt gives melee characters the ability to shine once per day (or once per encounter. Hardly broken since it's not uncommon that you have to move more than once during a combat). Something that a lot of players have been waiting for, for a long time, and something the Devs now finally have granted these players.
True the Chest slot doesn't have the competition seen in areas like the shoulders, but unlike rods, pearls and other toys, the Chest slot is a slot.
If the Quickrunner's Shirt is broken it's in relation to other items and there are items that give casters the options they need. Casters don't need to move and full attack, they need more spell slots, more spells known, meta magic rods, etc. They got all this (except for more spells known that isn't in the core books).
The game is all about having fun. Quickrunner's Shirt lets melee characters, that can't use pounce or Dimensional Dervish or cast 2 spells per round, have more fun once per day. I don't think that is a bad thing. It grants the player (and the GM) options.
It is true this item will probably be one of those must have items, but that only proves there is a desire/need for such an a item. Just as spell casters desire/need rods, pearls, etc. and just as many players pick the Magical Lineage traits and the Preferred Spell feat.
Magic items, traits and feats messes with stuff. If you like X in your game but not Z that is up to you. I just do get why we should remove and/or nerf toys for melee dudes and keep toys that lets spell casters cast a quicken SM 6 + spell + move action. Stuff that lets a cleric can cast SM 6 with a quicken rod, then cast spell (say Harm with a reach rod) then a quicken selective Channeling at the same time a that melee character that moves more than 5 ft only can hit monster with a stick once.
I have a hard time seeing how this shirt is more powerful than stuff like rods and pearls and other bling bling. Yes, it messes with X and other magic items messes with Z. Why Z is fine and X isn't is beyond me. That said, I wouldn't mind if the devs just changed it to pounce once per day, no 24-hour attunement period and raised the price. But adding a 24-hour attunement period and raising the prize is not what I hope for and it isn't fair. Then they should raise reach rods (and other rods) from 3000 gp to 12 000 gp. If the Devs add a 24-hour attunement period to the item, the price and all its side effects are fine, because it becomes a question of resource management. When should I activate this power?
Edit: I've come to the conclusion that adding a 24-hour attunement period is a bad solution for many reasons. One being that it benefits foes/NPCs whose only function is to be an "encounter", since they only need one use. I rather nerf the item and raise the price and have a no 24-hour attunement period. Some options:
a) as I suggested above, Pounce once per day and no 24-hour attunement period = somewhere between 2000 gp - 3000 gp.
b) Pounce 3 times per day with 24-hour attunement period = somewhere between 6000 gp - 11 000 gp.
c) Item as written (with all side effects) 3 times per day and a 24-hour attunement period = somewhere between 10000 - 16000 gp.
The two most common demands among players that want to play melee dudes are: Adding dex to damage and being able to move more than 5 ft and make more than one attack. They didn't get the agile property but they got a Quickrunner's Shirt. Let them have their fun. As a GM you can always nerf it yourself. Thanks to Diego Rossi and Gauss I already know how I will deal with it if I GM our next campaign.
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Zark, as retrieving a non weaponlike rod (so any metamagic rod, barring special construction) is a move action, I fail to see a action advantage.
Or you are always going around with a reach metamagic road in your hand?
I see an advantage as you can avoid getting into harm way to cast a spell but not a action advantage.
Zark, as retrieving a non weaponlike rod (so any metamagic rod, barring special construction) is a move action, I fail to see a action advantage.
Or you are always going around with a reach metamagic road in your hand?
Edit
Quick draw or gloves of storing.
I see an advantage as you can avoid getting into harm way to cast a spell but not a action advantage.
And getting a feat for free and not increaing the spell level and getting o non slot item at a silly low cost.
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Quick draw or gloves of storing.Zark, as retrieving a non weaponlike rod (so any metamagic rod, barring special construction) is a move action, I fail to see a action advantage.
Or you are always going around with a reach metamagic road in your hand?
Or yes, always go around with a rod in hand when combat is a potential. Fighting-types do it with their weapons, this is essentially an important weapon for a caster, so if you're in the field and don't need that hand for something else (wand, staff, etc.) then why in heck wouldn't you?
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Zark, as retrieving a non weaponlike rod (so any metamagic rod, barring special construction) is a move action, I fail to see a action advantage.
Or you are always going around with a reach metamagic road in your hand?
Edit
Quick draw or gloves of storing.
I see an advantage as you can avoid getting into harm way to cast a spell but not a action advantage.And getting a feat for free and not increaing the spell level and getting o non slot item at a silly low cost.
You can draw weapons faster than most.
...
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action[/quote+A rod isn't a weapon. With the glove you use one magic item to benefit from another.
I agree that the metamagic rods are too much of a good thing, but we were speaking of action economy.
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You can draw weapons faster than most.
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Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action
A rod isn't a weapon.
My reading is that it can be used as a weapon. Even if you don't agree any item that: weigh approximately 5 pounds; range from 2 feet to 3 feet long; usually are made of iron or some other metal; have AC 9, 10 hit points, hardness 10, and a break DC of 27 can be used as a improvised weapon.
Although I don't think "weapon or not weapon" matter. The rules usually say what you can do, not what you can't do. Quick Draw is an exception. You forgot this part:
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
I doesn't mention rod. If quick draw only applies to weapons, why include this last part. And if quick draw don't apply to rods, why not include rod? They got plenty of space to do it.
With the glove you use one magic item to benefit from another.
Yes, so what? If you are smart you use all the options you have. As pointed out before, magic toys work in favor of casters.
I agree that the metamagic rods are too much of a good thing, but we were speaking of action economy.
No, you are were speaking of action economy and for some reason you stuck in just talking about that.
I am speaking of items that help you with recourse management, gives you more options, grant you more power and/or make your character more fun to play.
Casters, especially prepared casters, have a lot of this items. Melee characters, don't.
This item, that helps you with action economy, actually help you with recourse management (since time/actions are a recourse) and it gives you more options and grants you more power and makes you character more fun to play.
Sure, nerf it or remove it from the game. At the same time remove or nerf rods and pearls and other similar items. Lets grant these item a 24hour attunement period ( and make sure they can only use one item during that 24hour attunement), make them once per day only (not 3 as rods are now), make them chest slots, and raise the price considerably. Wonder what people would say. Or better just remove them. I guess most people would be even more upset.
I do not have a problem with Pearls of Power. They prolong the adventuring day. They do not provide an increase in power per action.
- Gauss
I do not have a problem with Pearls of Power. They prolong the adventuring day. They do not provide an increase in power per action.
- Gauss
I'm not sure if my English isn't good enough or If I just can't convey how I see it.
A wizard don't need pounce. He/she needs rods and pearls and other stuff.
To me an items that grant pounce once per day or even once per encounter isn't a problem.
Zark: Ahhh, you were being sarcastic? Perhaps the next time you might want to add in a tag to indicate it. Emotions convey poorly online.
An example: /sarcasm
- Gauss
Zark: Ahhh, you were being sarcastic? Perhaps the next time you might want to add in a tag to indicate it. Emotions convey poorly online.
An example: /sarcasm
- Gauss
No I don't want to be sarcastic.
I will think about it and see if I can explain what I mean in some other way. Not that you or Diego have to agree with me. So long as you understand what I mean and disagree I'm satisfied.BTW, notice I allredy agreed with Diego on not likeing the side effects of the item.
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Zark, the Benefit row of a feat description is a rule, not fluff text.
"Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action"
Quick draw work only on weapon. The short list of items in the feat is to stop people from calling "Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands" weapons and trying to use Quick draw with them. Even if they aren't in that list, you can't Quick draw lanterns, books, 10' poles, improvised weapons or any other item that isn't a weapon.
Some rod are weapons, but those have their weapon stat listed in the rod description (example "Rod of Alertness: This rod is indistinguishable from a +1 light mace."), the other are improvised weapons at best and can't be used with quick draw.
It is even spelled out in the rod general description:
"Physical Description: Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction.)"
If it is not "noted in their descriptions" they don't work as weapons.
Zark, the Benefit row of a feat description is a rule, not fluff text.
"Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action"
Quick draw work only on weapon. The short list of items in the feat is to stop people from calling "Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands" weapons and trying to use Quick draw with them. Even if they aren't in that list, you can't Quick draw lanterns, books, 10' poles, improvised weapons or any other item that isn't a weapon.
Some rod are weapons, but those have their weapon stat listed in the rod description (example "Rod of Alertness: This rod is indistinguishable from a +1 light mace."), the other are improvised weapons at best and can't be used with quick draw.
It is even spelled out in the rod general description:
"Physical Description: Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction.)"
If it is not "noted in their descriptions" they don't work as weapons.
You might be right, but I'm not convinced. If the fluff text don't matter why include it?
(Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs, due to their hardy construction.)"
So why are no rods are noted in their descriptions as "can function as clubs"?. My guess is that any rod can function as a club unless otherwise noted just as much as a sturdy branch from a tree can function as a club if you smoothen it out with your knife or axe.
Rods are not Harry Potter wands. They weigh approximately 5 pounds. They" range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal". Sure they can function as a weapon. And no, a rod isn't a lantern or a book.
I'll post a question in the rules forum on this topic (some day when I have the time ) and lets hope for an answer.
As for: " If it is not "noted in their descriptions" they don't work as weapons. " ? You might think that is true. I don't. You might be wrong, I might be wrong.
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A chair leg can work as a club, but by the rules it is a improvised weapon. Same thing for your smoothed tree branch unless someone use his craft skill to make a club out of it.
Same thing for the rods, if it is not explicitly state that they work like a weapon they are improvised weapons.
It can be that they have the wrong shape, having the weighty part at the bottom instead of the top of the rod, having the grip in the middle or plenty of other reasons, simply they aren't made to be used as a weapon.
The text about what can't be draw with quickdraw is there because the Draw a weapon action is more permissive, so it was necessary to specify that the feat is more restricted:
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands.
Weapon like objects include your rods, alchemist fire, wands and a few other items. I wouldn't put scrolls or potions in that list, but I think it is evident that the Devs intent was to exclude a few items that were allowed under the general rule.
You will allow people quickdrawing a acid flask as it is not on the exclusion list and is a weapon like object?
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Diego, a club costs 0gp. It literally takes no time to use the craft skill to make one. At DC 12, most anyone can make one via take 10 or a decently lucky roll. You pull a branch off a tree or a leg off a table and you're done, provided you didn't tear it the wrong way and mess up the balance. It is not an improvised weapon. It is a club.
Now, if you failed said check, then I might treat as an improvised weapon in that case.
@ Diego. No I will not allow people quick drawing a acid flask, but I would allow them to quick draw Crowbars and Hammers.
The rod + quick draw thing has been up many times before in other threads. Some say yes.
Here is an example:
Yes. Rods are weapons already. They count as clubs. Just like sticks and chair legs. Any elongated blunt object can be a club. That's why they are free normally. Rods count.
And Treantmonk seemed to agree.
Rod is a weapon like object that can function as a weapon (or Improvised weapon as you put it), If any object should been included in the quick draw fluff text it should have been rod. But it isn't.
The rules say Rods can function as light maces or clubs, but Club is not noted in any descriptions. Nowhere does it say "this rod can function as a club". Why? I think the simple answer is rod is a sturdy elongated blunt object that can function as a club.
Edit:
As Ravingdork pointed out, It's a DC 12 to make a club. There is a reason a club costs 0gp: "any sturdy elongated blunt object that can function as a club". A rod is a sturdy elongated blunt object, whereas a wand, a flask of acid or a chair isn't.
If you want to be nitpicky about it. Simple solution, go to The Magic S-mart shop and order a meta-magic rod that can function as a club. Not a magical club, but a club just the same. Or craft it yourself.
Another thought. I guess you could even rule that those rods that specifically state that they function like a light mace can't be quick drawn since they aren't weapons, only rods that function like a weapon - in this case a light mace.
When I play, my GM decides what goes and what goes not. If I GM next Pathfinder campaign (we are currently playing Cthulhu, very fun) I will sure let people quick draw rods.
Diego, you have made some very good point and I must say I'm not sure I'm right, but my gut feeling says you can quick draw a rod regardless of type.
Regardless if you can or can't quick draw a rod my original point stands. Casters have more toys that can grant them options and help them with resource management and generally makes them more fun and more powerful. I don't mind that they have those toys. I never been into the whole Cleric/Wizard vs Fighter thing. This isn't a PVP game it's a game where the characters are supposed to work together as a small military unit and help and complement each other. That's why I'm so surprised when there always are opinions regarding toys for fighters/melee characters.
Back to the Quickrunner's Shirt. I will allow it in my game. I will actually have more than one version of it.
The default version will be a little bit more expensive, only grant pounce and won't have any 24-hour attunement period.
I would like to know where Pathfinder gets the Idea a short spear is 3 foot. A short spear tended to be at least as long as the man who carried it. I could understand if they said it has a reach of three feet since you held a spear in the middle.
Also anyone notice hafling ration are both cheaper and more delicious then other rations..
Save money and eat better, buy halfing rations.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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Realistically, the shortspear should be a javelin. But 3.5E made the decision to make the javelin and one-handed spear* different weapons, and Pathfinder opted not to change around most of the weapons.
* longer spears can be used one-handed, of course, but it's a fighting style that's not well-suited to one-on-one combat.