Where do suicides go in Golarion?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

Sczarni

This recently came up in my Carrion Crown game. A Tielfling ninja/shadowdancer ended up going to toe to toe with a augnagar qlippoth.

Now the PC DID want to come back, but didn't realize the party druid was more interested in saving money than finding a cleric and doing Raise Dead/Resurrection. So along comes our friend (and cheaper alternative!) reincarnate! Druid rolls a 99, and now we have a troglodyte ninja/shadowdancer.

So now he's like "Dude!! I don't want to be a trog!" So I 'deviously' suggested he do a suicide, and thus try again.

Now however, I realize that there might be a problem since a goodly number of those suicides do go to Hell (or else the Abyss). But where does a NE former tielfling go?

James Jacobs! I'm looking at you sir!

Shadow Lodge

NE goes to Abaddon, becoming one of the hunted souls preyed on by the daemons. If he survives abaddon long enough he would become a Ceustodaemon, more information here

Sczarni

doc the grey wrote:
NE goes to Abaddon, becoming one of the hunted souls preyed on by the daemons. If he survives abaddon long enough he would become a Ceustodaemon, more information here

Well cool! I wasn't sure what, if any, kind of daemon he might turn into. :)

Shadow Lodge

yeah most daemons are actually based on the way in which they died with some of them being quite tragic cases like the lacridaemon or the erodaemon.

Sczarni

doc the grey wrote:
yeah most daemons are actually based on the way in which they died with some of them being quite tragic cases like the lacridaemon or the erodaemon.

I'm familiar with that aspect sure. I just didn't realize there was a 'place' for suicides among the Hunted.

Not that it matters. I just wanted to ensure I stayed accurate with the whole "I'm a Rat Bastard DM!" shtick I'm grooming.

Shadow Lodge

Lol best part is their meant to be the most subservient of the daemons being much easier to call and subjugate to the will of their caller, very divine comedy esque.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Nightfall wrote:

This recently came up in my Carrion Crown game. A Tielfling ninja/shadowdancer ended up going to toe to toe with a augnagar qlippoth.

Now the PC DID want to come back, but didn't realize the party druid was more interested in saving money than finding a cleric and doing Raise Dead/Resurrection. So along comes our friend (and cheaper alternative!) reincarnate! Druid rolls a 99, and now we have a troglodyte ninja/shadowdancer.

So now he's like "Dude!! I don't want to be a trog!" So I 'deviously' suggested he do a suicide, and thus try again.

Now however, I realize that there might be a problem since a goodly number of those suicides do go to Hell (or else the Abyss). But where does a NE former tielfling go?

James Jacobs! I'm looking at you sir!

The boneyard doesn't care how you die. If you die, that's where your soul goes UNLESS it's captured/imprisoned/delayed along the way, such as but not including being subjected to:

being turned undead
being soul trapped/trap the souled
being consumed by a monster

The above includes suicides. Now, while individual religions in Golarion all have drastically different views on suicides, and thus the clerics and other worshipers of those religions will have drastically different views on them and may or may not agree to cast spells to bring them back to life.

In many cases, suicide does mean you fail at your religion or your goal in life, and as a result, more suicides end up in torment in the afterlife rather than going on to their reward, but the time in which that "processing" happens is no faster or no slower than for any other deaths.

So, for the purposes of game mechanics, a spell doesn't care if a character died via suicide or not.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:


In many cases, suicide does mean you fail at your religion or your goal in life, and as a result, more suicides end up in torment in the afterlife rather than going on to their reward, but the time in which that "processing" happens is no faster or no slower than for any other deaths.

Does that still happen if you worship Naderi, goddess of suicides?


James Jacobs wrote:


The above includes suicides. Now, while individual religions in Golarion all have drastically different views on suicides, and thus the clerics and other worshipers of those religions will have drastically different views on them and may or may not agree to cast spells to bring them back to life.

In many cases, suicide does mean you fail at your religion or your goal in life, and as a result, more suicides end up in torment in the afterlife rather than going on to their reward

So does some religions consider suicide honorable or tolerated it? There are some - very uncommon - examples of this even in our world.

Dark Archive

Dude. Embrace the TROGLODYTE!

Sczarni

James Jacobs wrote:

The boneyard doesn't care how you die. If you die, that's where your soul goes UNLESS it's captured/imprisoned/delayed along the way, such as but not including being subjected to:

being turned undead
being soul trapped/trap the souled
being consumed by a monster

The above includes suicides. Now, while individual religions in Golarion all have drastically different views on suicides, and thus the clerics and other worshipers of those religions will have drastically different views on them and may or may not agree to cast spells to bring them back to life.

In many cases, suicide does mean you fail at your religion or your goal in life, and as a result, more suicides end up in torment in the afterlife rather than going on to their reward, but the time in which that "processing" happens is no faster or no slower than for any other deaths.

So, for the purposes of game mechanics, a spell doesn't care if a character died via suicide or not.

Okay. But as a Rat Bastard DM, I COULD stipulate that they process his soul quicker this time around and thus he ends up in Abaddon. Would that be correct?

Sczarni

Mazlith wrote:
Dude. Embrace the TROGLODYTE!

Trust me, I want him to. But I think this might serve as a better lesson.

MAYBE.


If Pharasma's processed his soul, the golarion mechanics explanation is that the time limit has expired on any and all raise dead type effects... Mind you, your world, your fluff text...

As far as the PC, tell him to invest in a customized hat of disguise type widget (with included Prestigidation effect to control the smell), and then look at the advantages...

Tiefling reincarnated Trogolodyte

-4 to dex
+4 to con
+6 Natural Armour (yes, your own personal breastplate, which stacks and has no ACP/ASF)
+30 ft of darkvision
+4 to stealth in rocky areas
Loses resistances
Darkness SLA
Might (DM's call - are these training/mental or physical bonuses) lose a + 2 to bluff and stealth
claw/claw/bite attack routine - all primary
stench - can be devastating if your friends are prepared ahead of time, and the enemy isn't.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Ninjaxenomorph wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


In many cases, suicide does mean you fail at your religion or your goal in life, and as a result, more suicides end up in torment in the afterlife rather than going on to their reward, but the time in which that "processing" happens is no faster or no slower than for any other deaths.
Does that still happen if you worship Naderi, goddess of suicides?

Again, as I mentioned, the exact results vary according to religion. If your deity is all about suicide, that absolutely factors into things... but I suspect her faith is pretty intolerant of suicides performed at the wrong time or for the wrong reasons.

But the time it takes to process the soul and send it on doesn't change for anything or for any reason.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Nightfall wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

The boneyard doesn't care how you die. If you die, that's where your soul goes UNLESS it's captured/imprisoned/delayed along the way, such as but not including being subjected to:

being turned undead
being soul trapped/trap the souled
being consumed by a monster

The above includes suicides. Now, while individual religions in Golarion all have drastically different views on suicides, and thus the clerics and other worshipers of those religions will have drastically different views on them and may or may not agree to cast spells to bring them back to life.

In many cases, suicide does mean you fail at your religion or your goal in life, and as a result, more suicides end up in torment in the afterlife rather than going on to their reward, but the time in which that "processing" happens is no faster or no slower than for any other deaths.

So, for the purposes of game mechanics, a spell doesn't care if a character died via suicide or not.

Okay. But as a Rat Bastard DM, I COULD stipulate that they process his soul quicker this time around and thus he ends up in Abaddon. Would that be correct?

That would be correct. It would also be the same as arbitrarily telling a player who's PC just died that "You can't be resurrected or brought back to life because your soul got judged by Pharasma. Sorry. Make a new character, and this time don't die."

In my experience, GMs like that end up with a lot of free time, since their players find other things to do rather than play in that game.

Sczarni

James Jacobs wrote:


That would be correct. It would also be the same as arbitrarily telling a player who's PC just died that "You can't be resurrected or brought back to life because your soul got judged by Pharasma. Sorry. Make a new character, and this time don't die."

In my experience, GMs like that end up with a lot of free time, since their players find other things to do rather than play in that game.

Well I don't do this THAT often James. I really don't. That being said I just don't feel right by just letting them "cheap out" on the fact he's a troglodyte and wants another race.

I will however factor that in my decision making process IF for some reason the Druid decides to spend the time, energy, etc to cast reincarnate. (I honestly don't think he will. But I don't know since I'm not a god.)

Contributor

Nightfall wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


That would be correct. It would also be the same as arbitrarily telling a player who's PC just died that "You can't be resurrected or brought back to life because your soul got judged by Pharasma. Sorry. Make a new character, and this time don't die."

In my experience, GMs like that end up with a lot of free time, since their players find other things to do rather than play in that game.

Well I don't do this THAT often James. I really don't. That being said I just don't feel right by just letting them "cheap out" on the fact he's a troglodyte and wants another race.

I will however factor that in my decision making process IF for some reason the Druid decides to spend the time, energy, etc to cast reincarnate. (I honestly don't think he will. But I don't know since I'm not a god.)

There are high level witches who have Forced Reincarnation as a power and don't think that all people they run into are going to suddenly be fine with and joyously embrace the fact that they are now a female elf/male troglodyte/female bugbear/male halfling etc. A number of people have their identity tied to their physical form, and if they get something radically different, the witches expect them to freak out and then get amenable to blackmail and serving the witch rather than living for the rest of their life in a particularly hated form.

So the former tiefling doesn't like being a troglodyte but he's NE. Let him know about the "crone on the hill" who in exchange for a quest--or even for a "favor to be repaid at a later date"--will whammy you with her Forced Reincarnate hex until you get something you like. If you piss her off or stiff her on payment, she'll run the spin cycle until you get something you really don't like.

If you feel the character has failed to embrace his inner troglodyte, that means you've got a character who doesn't want to embrace his inner troglodyte to the point where death is a more pleasant option. Having the universe conspire against him means you're going to be out a player, like James said.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Nightfall wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


That would be correct. It would also be the same as arbitrarily telling a player who's PC just died that "You can't be resurrected or brought back to life because your soul got judged by Pharasma. Sorry. Make a new character, and this time don't die."

In my experience, GMs like that end up with a lot of free time, since their players find other things to do rather than play in that game.

Well I don't do this THAT often James. I really don't. That being said I just don't feel right by just letting them "cheap out" on the fact he's a troglodyte and wants another race.

I will however factor that in my decision making process IF for some reason the Druid decides to spend the time, energy, etc to cast reincarnate. (I honestly don't think he will. But I don't know since I'm not a god.)

My advice then is to be honest with the player and just tell him that. Remind him that when you accept a reincarnate spell... you very well might come back with a body you don't want, and that you should keep that in mind before you say yes to a reincarnation. I would allow him to retcon his decision if possible, and to allow the party to foot the bill for a raise dead or whatever to bring him back in his actual body. Selling the dead character's gear to help pay for that cost might help pay for it.

If you don't want to retcon it, then I would have the player of the troglodyte play out a sub-quest to go find an NPC cleric willing to sacrifice him and then cast raise dead to bring him back in his original body. You can turn this into a short adventure if you want.

That said... since this whole situation arose from an unfortunate death compounded by another player being a bit stingy with loot and/or not being very empathic toward the player of the dead PC's feelings, it might be best for the politics of your game table to retcon it all and just start over.

Shadow Lodge

Nightfall wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


That would be correct. It would also be the same as arbitrarily telling a player who's PC just died that "You can't be resurrected or brought back to life because your soul got judged by Pharasma. Sorry. Make a new character, and this time don't die."

In my experience, GMs like that end up with a lot of free time, since their players find other things to do rather than play in that game.

Well I don't do this THAT often James. I really don't. That being said I just don't feel right by just letting them "cheap out" on the fact he's a troglodyte and wants another race.

I will however factor that in my decision making process IF for some reason the Druid decides to spend the time, energy, etc to cast reincarnate. (I honestly don't think he will. But I don't know since I'm not a god.)

That said dude I think you have acess to 2 options here. First one is you allow him to be brought back anyway even though he's a petitioner and have his character rp out his terrified and fragmented memories of being hunted like a wounded dear which I recommend if you have a group of people and a player who loves a good rp. Or second you have the other group find him after the deed is done and try to revive him through normal means but to no avail, the spell can't get him as is since he's in f%+&ing Abbadon and daemons don't let their prey go easy but their is a catch, as the spell fails they see the spirit of their dead friend, he looks tired and terrified and says he heard the call but cannot answer it seems wherever he is has him stuck here and he can't get away of his own volition and he needs them to save him. This leads to your PC's going on a desperate manhunt into the gods blasted killing fields of Abaddon itself in an effort to save your friend from his rather idiotic and selfish action all the while trying to avoid the things hunting him and from becoming hunted themselves.

As a note in my home setting judgement can be quick and allow others to become petitioners and still be brought back it just comes with a lot of moral quandaries as you must question whether it was right to save someone from the fate they earned or pull them from the paradise they worked so hard to achieve leaving them with the chance to damn or save themselves once brought back to mortality.

Contributor

To throw in my diabolical 2 cents as well, Avernus, the first layer of Hell, includes among its titles the Iron Wilderness, the Grave of Angels, and the Field of Suicides.

Among several religions, particularly the more lawful ones - like those of Erastil and Torag - there are irredeemable crimes. Damnable crimes. Suicide stands among the most obvious of these, for there is never the possibility of repentance. Should a lawful worshiper of such a deity make his final act to knowingly and self-destructively blaspheme against his deity (and that deity has deliberate, known proscriptions against suicide) his soul will not pass on into his deity's realm. Rather, it will be cast into Avernus, where such souls are left to roam, forever hunted and forsaken at the gates of Hell.

There's a bit (a very small bit) on this matter on page 6 of Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness, but (shameless plug) even more in the new Kobold Quarterly #22's article on Barbatos, Lord of Avernus.

If you're a neutral worshiper of such a lawful deity with proscriptions against suicide, I could see the argument that you might go to Abbadon. But in much the same way that you'd go to your lawful deity's home plane upon your death as a result of your faith, for failing your faith you probably go to the punishment of your deity's choosing - probably meaning Avernus in Hell. Ultimately, though, we've got Pharasma to sort out existential messes like that.

In the case that you state, it doesn't sound likely that your tiefling was part of a religion that cares one jot about suicide, so he probably wouldn't have to worry about any strange circumstances as he queues up for Pharasma's judgement.

That said, mortals who try to exploit the laws of death for their own game sound like EXACTLY the sort of thing psychopomps would seriously frown on. If this were my game, I'd put the player under the scrutiny of a nosoi psyhcopomp in whippoorwill form. Maybe have it and a few other ominous birds follow him for a while and watch to make sure he's not bending the laws of death too far. If he doesn't after a few months, maybe it drifts off. If he does do something sketchy, though, it might be time to call in a vanth, morrigna, or memitim to give him his one warning that no one just takes a dip in the River of Souls. You've got some really sadistic opportunities here. Indulge! ;)

Sczarni

James Jacobs wrote:

My advice then is to be honest with the player and just tell him that. Remind him that when you accept a reincarnate spell... you very well might come back with a body you don't want, and that you should keep that in mind before you say yes to a reincarnation. I would allow him to retcon his decision if possible, and to allow the party to foot the bill for a raise dead or whatever to bring him back in his actual body. Selling the dead character's gear to help pay for that cost might help pay for it.

If you don't want to retcon it, then I would have the player of the troglodyte play out a sub-quest to go find an NPC cleric willing to sacrifice him and then cast raise dead to bring him back in his original body. You can turn this into a short adventure if you want.

That said... since this whole situation arose from an unfortunate death compounded by another player being a bit stingy with loot and/or not being very empathic toward the player of the dead PC's feelings, it might be best for the politics of your game table to retcon it all and just start over.

Firstly I do think retcon might be in order. However I should mention that the qlippoth in question DID eat him. Thus his gear didn't survive. So...I might just go with that as 'warning'. I will consider retcon to some degree, just not sure I'm all for the entirety of it.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

There are high level witches who have Forced Reincarnation as a power and don't think that all people they run into are going to suddenly be fine with and joyously embrace the fact that they are now a female elf/male troglodyte/female bugbear/male halfling etc. A number of people have their identity tied to their physical form, and if they get something radically different, the witches expect them to freak out and then get amenable to blackmail and serving the witch rather than living for the rest of their life in a particularly hated form.

So the former tiefling doesn't like being a troglodyte but he's NE. Let him know about the "crone on the hill" who in exchange for a quest--or even for a "favor to be repaid at a later date"--will whammy you with her Forced Reincarnate hex until you get something you like. If you piss her off or stiff her on payment, she'll run the spin cycle until you get something you really don't like.

If you feel the character has failed to embrace his inner troglodyte, that means you've got a character who doesn't want to embrace his inner troglodyte to the point where death is a more pleasant option. Having the universe conspire against him means you're going to be out a player, like James said.

Well that is an option. I might do that since it would tie in nicely to the witches from Barstoi in the next adventure. We'll see.

doc the grey wrote:

That said dude I think you have access to 2 options here. First one is you allow him to be brought back anyway even though he's a petitioner and have his character rp out his terrified and fragmented memories of being hunted like a wounded dear which I recommend if you have a group of people and a player who loves a good rp. Or second you have the other group find him after the deed is done and try to revive him through normal means but to no avail, the spell can't get him as is since he's in f~@&ing Abbadon and daemons don't let their prey go easy but their is a catch, as the spell fails they see the spirit of their dead friend, he looks tired and terrified and says he heard the call but cannot answer it seems wherever he is has him stuck here and he can't get away of his own volition and he needs them to save him. This leads to your PC's going on a desperate manhunt into the gods blasted killing fields of Abaddon itself in an effort to save your friend from his rather idiotic and selfish action all the while trying to avoid the things hunting him and from becoming hunted themselves.

As a note in my home setting judgement can be quick and allow others to...

I'll consider that option weighed against what Mister Schneider just offered.

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

To throw in my diabolical 2 cents as well, Avernus, the first layer of Hell, includes among its titles the Iron Wilderness, the Grave of Angels, and the Field of Suicides.

Among several religions, particularly the more lawful ones - like those of Erastil and Torag - there are irredeemable crimes. Damnable crimes. Suicide stands among the most obvious of these, for there is never the possibility of repentance. Should a lawful worshiper of such a deity make his final act to knowingly and self-destructively blaspheme against his deity (and that deity has deliberate, known proscriptions against suicide) his soul will not pass on into his deity's realm. Rather, it will be cast into Avernus, where such souls are left to roam, forever hunted and forsaken at the gates of Hell.

There's a bit (a very small bit) on this matter on page 6 of Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness, but (shameless plug) even more in the new Kobold Quarterly #22's article on Barbatos, Lord of Avernus.

If you're a neutral worshiper of such a lawful deity with proscriptions against suicide, I could see the argument that you might go to Abbadon. But in much the same way that you'd go to your lawful deity's home plane upon your death as a result of your faith, for failing your faith you probably go to the punishment of your deity's choosing - probably meaning Avernus in Hell. Ultimately, though, we've got Pharasma to sort out existential messes like that.

In the case that you state, it doesn't sound likely that your tiefling was part of a religion that cares one jot about suicide, so he probably wouldn't have to worry about any strange circumstances as he queues up for Pharasma's judgement.

That said, mortals who try to exploit the laws of death for their own game sound like EXACTLY the sort of thing psychopomps would seriously frown on. If this were my game, I'd put the player under the scrutiny of a nosoi psyhcopomp in whippoorwill form. Maybe have it and a few other ominous birds follow him for a while and watch to make sure he's not bending the laws of death too far. If he doesn't after a few months, maybe it drifts off. If he does do something sketchy, though, it might be time to call in a vanth, morrigna, or memitim to give him his one warning that no one just takes a dip in the River of Souls. You've got some really sadistic opportunities here. Indulge! ;)

You know I might combine YOUR idea with Kevin's because this way if the druid DOES decide to not do it, it offers him a choice.

I admit, I'm willing to recton for the sake of the table. I just dunno if one player's needs SHOULD over shadow that of the entire group.

Contributor

Fixed thread title.

Sczarni

Liz Courts wrote:
Fixed thread title.

Did I misspell something Oh Mighty One called Liz?

Dark Archive

Isn't this blatant metagaming? Who in his right mind would do such a thing? Kill yourself just for the small chance you come back better than before? I'd also think the gods wouldn't like the idea of someone playing with his life. There's a good chance they wouldn't even allow the druid to cast another reincarnate. There's also a good chance the party doesn't want to waste any additional resources on the idiot that just killed himself after being reincarnated.

Also, since he was a Native Outsider (and not a humanoid) he should come back as a Outsider. (and not a humanoid)
There you go, problem solved. Just retcon him as some kind of outsider.

Sczarni

the David wrote:

Isn't this blatant metagaming? Who in his right mind would do such a thing? Kill yourself just for the small chance you come back better than before? I'd also think the gods wouldn't like the idea of someone playing with his life. There's a good chance they wouldn't even allow the druid to cast another reincarnate. There's also a good chance the party doesn't want to waste any additional resources on the idiot that just killed himself after being reincarnated.

Also, since he was a Native Outsider (and not a humanoid) he should come back as a Outsider. (and not a humanoid)
There you go, problem solved. Just retcon him as some kind of outsider.

Understand he's still kind of new to this...and I think played a good deal of WoW. I do agree it's a very 'metagame' move on his part. However I think it's balanced out by the fact the DM MIGHT have set him up to fail. (Not the whole being reincarnated thing so much as "Oops! You're dead.) So...we'll see.


You could have him come back as a tiefling. Just have him come back wrong.

Perhaps he damaged his soul or didn't came back alone. Or (The thought just occurs to me) have him bring the Hunt with him. Though alive the daemons pester him until they eat him or he turns. You could have the daemons on one side and the daemons on the other with the ninja in middle who drags the rest of is party with him, and hey part of being the hunted is turning upon the other souls you come across to ensure your own survival....

Sczarni

The NPC wrote:

You could have him come back as a tiefling. Just have him come back wrong.

Perhaps he damaged his soul or didn't came back alone. Or (The thought just occurs to me) have him bring the Hunt with him. Though alive the daemons pester him until they eat him or he turns. You could have the daemons on one side and the daemons on the other with the ninja in middle who drags the rest of is party with him, and hey part of being the hunted is turning upon the other souls you come across to ensure your own survival....

Well I had thought about that too. But not sure how much I want to do that while the PCs are questing for the Whispering Way.

ALTHOUGH! We are at Wake of the Watcher...so maybe something like "From Beyond!" would be an option...

Shadow Lodge

Nightfall wrote:
The NPC wrote:

You could have him come back as a tiefling. Just have him come back wrong.

Perhaps he damaged his soul or didn't came back alone. Or (The thought just occurs to me) have him bring the Hunt with him. Though alive the daemons pester him until they eat him or he turns. You could have the daemons on one side and the daemons on the other with the ninja in middle who drags the rest of is party with him, and hey part of being the hunted is turning upon the other souls you come across to ensure your own survival....

Well I had thought about that too. But not sure how much I want to do that while the PCs are questing for the Whispering Way.

ALTHOUGH! We are at Wake of the Watcher...so maybe something like "From Beyond!" would be an option...

Personally of all the evil outsiders excluding the qilppoth the daemons might be one of the most appropriate to come stalking after a party member hunting his soul from beyond the veil of the afterlife! To make matters worse if he is a NE character and he did hit abaddon then this hunt on the material plane could be totally sanctioned by the boneyard as the Daemons are now out to recoup their lost property. Could lead to the players pulling desperate sprints through gloomy cities trying to protect their friend, making deals with unsavory forces, and potentially trying to aim these beasts at the whispering way in an effort to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Honestly dude it sounds like a blast and you even get built in cover for what the G aligned players think of it as daemons are admitted to being so foul that even the devils & demons don't want to work with them. These pit spawn want nothing less then an empty multiverse silent as the grave and will kill everything in their way to accomplish it and leave blights and scars on the land and it's people that don't leave and even the most straight edged pally would see they need to be stopped especially the longer they are allowed to float around.

Dark Archive

"For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the table on the next page. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created."

This pretty much says it all. A Tiefling can't become a Troglodyte through Reincarnate. You can retcon him as being some kind of outsider.

Sczarni

David,

I'll try to see if that can work. I mean this way he won't lose out if, say, he become a Sylph or something like that.


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Is it just me...or does it seem like James and Wes are size tiny outsiders with diametrically opposed alignments whispering into the ears of hapless GMs? "Be a kind Gentle GM and give them a retcon!" "No, no, send terrible outsiders to spy on them and hunt them down!" :-)

Contributor

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Nani O. Pratt wrote:
Is it just me...or does it seem like James and Wes are size tiny outsiders with diametrically opposed alignments whispering into the ears of hapless GMs? "Be a kind Gentle GM and give them a retcon!" "No, no, send terrible outsiders to spy on them and hunt them down!" :-)

Plays out like that a lot in real life too. Though the opposition typically comes in the first letter of our alignments, not the second. ;)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Ha.

I approve of this thread's development.

Sczarni

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Nani O. Pratt wrote:
Is it just me...or does it seem like James and Wes are size tiny outsiders with diametrically opposed alignments whispering into the ears of hapless GMs? "Be a kind Gentle GM and give them a retcon!" "No, no, send terrible outsiders to spy on them and hunt them down!" :-)

Honestly I've always seen James as your run of the mill demon plotting to destroy people versus Wesley's more "MMhhhaahh!!" evil snarling devil type.


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James is more like the Wizard of Oz...always threatening for dramatic effect, but really a softie behind the screen (of course, I say this having never played under him).

Wes on the other hand has caused me to run screaming from the table. Twice.

(See what happens when I poke my head out of the Pathfinder Society forums? I get to reveal all your secrets to the paparazzi.)

Sczarni

Wizard of Oz? Hardly. Anti-paladin all the way! :p :)

Wesley might be a wizard.

Silver Crusade

Just had a thought...

Thinking about Shelyn's relationship with Naderi and how she's always trying to reach out to help her yet circumstances always keep them apart, I can't help but imagine that Shelynite suicides go to Naderi's realm.

Why?

Because Naderi may have been the first Shelynite suicide. :(

Liberty's Edge

the David wrote:
Isn't this blatant metagaming? Who in his right mind would do such a thing? Kill yourself just for the small chance you come back better than before?

I think a lot of people might do such a thing to avoid being a troglodyte. People get very attached to their self-identity, and very, very few people in real life want to be a troglodyte. If there's another chance, why not? In fact, being okay with coming back as a troglodyte might be better classified metagaming.


prosfilaes wrote:
the David wrote:
Isn't this blatant metagaming? Who in his right mind would do such a thing? Kill yourself just for the small chance you come back better than before?
I think a lot of people might do such a thing to avoid being a troglodyte. People get very attached to their self-identity, and very, very few people in real life want to be a troglodyte. If there's another chance, why not? In fact, being okay with coming back as a troglodyte might be better classified metagaming.

I could see that. My thought goes: but they also don't know they won't come back as something *worse*. Even if they knew the reincarnate table somehow. Even if they knew the percentages! There's the ever-mysterious and totally unpredictable "GM's Choice". I mean: agh! No druid is ever going to be able to predict that!


Tacticslion wrote:
There's the ever-mysterious and totally unpredictable "GM's Choice". I mean: agh! No druid is ever going to be able to predict that!

Indeed, GM's choice doesn't even have to be the same creature type. Repeat suicides should be reincarnated as flumphs ...

Back to the topic, though, keep in mind there may still be repercussions for the suicidal act. Just because the character's soul avoids an eternity of torment by being whisked back to the material plane doesn't erase what happened. It is very likely that same torment will be waiting for them once they meet their true end, their failure remembered by the deity that would otherwise have welcomed the character's soul.

Granted, players that would consider doing this probably would not care about the greater significance; what happens to a character after its retirement or death has no meaning to this type of player. Those that do strive to embrace the character's role, however, should be reminded that their character could be sacrificing his or her afterlife. Any living being is unlikely to take such an action lightly, and the player should truly consider what their character would do in the situation.

Sczarni

prosfilaes wrote:
the David wrote:
Isn't this blatant metagaming? Who in his right mind would do such a thing? Kill yourself just for the small chance you come back better than before?
I think a lot of people might do such a thing to avoid being a troglodyte. People get very attached to their self-identity, and very, very few people in real life want to be a troglodyte. If there's another chance, why not? In fact, being okay with coming back as a troglodyte might be better classified metagaming.

Not sure I quite agree with that. For one thing if you're a fighter type, being small has some pretty significant drawbacks. Also I'm not sure the PC in question is that attached JUST yet to this character. He's only been playing in the campaign for only 1 session.

Sczarni

I have decided to see how this plays out but I do think either he gets another chance, this gets re-rolled OR we have something else happen.

Right now I really rather have this play out in front of me and the player than just randomly decide right now.

Also I never get GM's choice when these particular players roll for percentages using Reincarnate.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nani O. Pratt wrote:

James is more like the Wizard of Oz...always threatening for dramatic effect, but really a softie behind the screen (of course, I say this having never played under him).

Wes on the other hand has caused me to run screaming from the table. Twice.

But all live in awe and despair of the Great, Beautiful, and Terrible Lisa! *Insert appropriate video here

Sczarni

LazarX wrote:
Nani O. Pratt wrote:

James is more like the Wizard of Oz...always threatening for dramatic effect, but really a softie behind the screen (of course, I say this having never played under him).

Wes on the other hand has caused me to run screaming from the table. Twice.

But all live in awe and despair of the Great, Beautiful, and Terrible Lisa! *Insert appropriate video here

Well I think that's a given...


the David wrote:
Isn't this blatant metagaming? Who in his right mind would do such a thing? Kill yourself just for the small chance you come back better than before?

If you came back as a ***ing troglodyte the first time, your chances of coming back better the second time are better than 98%-- your odds of rolling anything other than troglodyte, plus the set of all natural 100s in which the GM saw fit to reincarnate you as something that did not have a stench aura.

Honestly, I'd rather use limited wish to resume my human form-- being human is important to me, but not vital-- but male, humanoid, mammalian and Medium-sized are absolutely non-negotiable for me. I'd ride the Suicide Express out of Lizardtown in a heartbeat.

Of course, I also consider contingent last breath and contingent limited wish to be a superior alternative to lichdom. Costs more money in the long run, but you get to be alive.

the David wrote:
I'd also think the gods wouldn't like the idea of someone playing with his life. There's a good chance they wouldn't even allow the druid to cast another reincarnate. There's also a good chance the party doesn't want to waste any additional resources on the idiot that just killed himself after being reincarnated.

It's a Druid/Witch spell. Who cares what the gods think about it?

the David wrote:

Also, since he was a Native Outsider (and not a humanoid) he should come back as a Outsider. (and not a humanoid)

There you go, problem solved. Just retcon him as some kind of outsider.

This is definitely a thing, though being reincarnated as an Outsider would also be no-go for me.


Nani O. Pratt wrote:
Is it just me...or does it seem like James and Wes are size tiny outsiders with diametrically opposed alignments whispering into the ears of hapless GMs? "Be a kind Gentle GM and give them a retcon!" "No, no, send terrible outsiders to spy on them and hunt them down!" :-)

.

Shoulder angels???

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