Psionics in Pathfinder


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BB36 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
You mean the way munchkins always pick on a new system the DM won't know well so they can BS their way out of being caught cheating? Seen it before, with everything new you care to name from psionics to Tome of Magic to Book of Nine Swords...don't confuse the abusers with the lovers, there's a world of difference between the two.
The issue is that Psionics aren't really all that new. Psionics was introduced in the old 3 booklet set (I know I have them still)

The AD&D PHB is where I first encountered them, but back then there were no psionic classes, only a psionics system that tacked on top of any character of any class.

BB36 wrote:
It is almost as if there's a belief that a Psionic Fighter of X level MUST BE as least as good as a standard fighter PLUS the Psionic Fighter has psionics that give them the edge

Well then you will be glad to know there are no more psionic fighters. There's the p[sychic warrior, but he's a 3/4 BAB class and renowned for being about the most balanced class in 3.5 at any level, and that's saying some.

BB36 wrote:
Loving a class in not a problem, taking them to extremes and squeezing every last ounce of min/max and then some out of the class is

This is true, but not specifically of psionics. Some players will ALWAYS min-max, some will always optimize and some will always cheat. The problem is in the player.

BB36 wrote:
True but why does it seem that Psionics draws in my experience, and after playing for 33+ years that's a lot of experience, those who seem to like to do tweak things beyond recognition?

Wow, almost as much experience as me (34 years). Sorry but I have found no propensity for abusing the system particular to any system, class, or game.

BB36 wrote:
There seems to be this idea in many who play Psionics that "Psionics > Mundane" and I'm not talking flavor and concept. The feeling that if it's psionic, baring bad rolls, win almost every time seems to be a given.

Nope, sorry, I have to say that in the play-testing for Psionics Unleashed I was the advocate of "whatever else we must make sure that psionics is balanced with everything else in Pathfinder" much to the annoyance of others involved at times. I'm glad to say that this is pretty much what happened, too.

BB36 wrote:
Ask too many who play Psionic characters all the time to play a mundane and too many times you'll get "Those guys are too weak", not, " I like the flavor of psionics" far more often

No, I like them because they are different - I like the flavour. Not stronger, but different: more intuitive, more thematic to my mind. Of the many that I have spoken with over the years on the subject, that is in fact the thing I have NOT heard.


Um, okay. I'll just go ask an entire world full of psionic players what they think. Yes, that was snarky, but meant to be funny too.

It might just be me, but I make a character either without knowing what others are going to play, or with the rest of the characters in mind. If a psionic class fits the flavor of the character I want to play, then great! If it doesn't, I'll move on to something else. I've never seen Psionics as 'better' for anything except blasting, and that's not saying much.

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
A lot

I'm glad you don't like abusing rule systems. I am glad that you did your best to keep Psionics on an even keel. Liking them as they are different is great. However, that is not what it's about, it's about how nomenclature used in Psionics allows things to be abused

When saying "Psionic Fighters" I purposely made sure not to use a real class as to not draw the ire of a fanboi/gurl of said class. But the analogy holds. Too many I've met at Cons, local groups, etc those that play Psions (one of the reasons I wouldn't let them be played in my world, save as NPC villians) seem to think that Class "ABC" Psionic >= similar Class "ABC" mundane and THEN the Psionics is added in making Psion classes superior. Which to some is "just the natural order"

Now for myself, I look at the terms used in Psionics and how they really need to be tightened up.

What does "Manifester Level" mean in psionics? In many cases it means "Caster Level" where a 1st Level Psion is a 1st level Manifester. Now take the Trait "Psionic Knack" that bumps up the "Manifester Level +2"

Now there are some who can point to that meaning their Psion is a 3rd level Manifester and 3rd level manifesters know powers as a 3rd level Psion. I'm not joking

Help your cause by tightening and spelling out in plain language what those terms mean for the various ways you wish to use them

Grand Lodge

Azten wrote:
Um, okay. I'll just go ask an entire world full of psionic players what they think. Yes, that was snarky, but meant to be funny too

And comments like that turn many off to DMs trying Psionics. At least admit that there are those who choose Psionics to confuse and munchkin out

That was meant to be true and a little bit snarky as well


I'll admit that about all of D&D and Pathfinder, but not just Psionics alone.

Ask too many who play Wizard characters all the time to play a mundane and too many times you'll get "Those guys are too weak", not, " I like the flavor of wizards" far more often.

BB36 wrote:
Now there are some who can point to that meaning their Psion is a 3rd level Manifester and 3rd level manifesters know powers as a 3rd level Psion. I'm not joking

These people need to be educated that your manifester level does not determine how many and what powers you know. That's what class level is for. Your manifester level is to determine how many powers points you can spend on a power.


BB36 wrote:


What does "Manifester Level" mean in psionics? In many cases it means "Caster Level" where a 1st Level Psion is a 1st level Manifester. Now take the Trait "Psionic Knack" that bumps up the "Manifester Level +2"

Now there are some who can point to that meaning their Psion is a 3rd level Manifester and 3rd level manifesters know powers as a 3rd level Psion. I'm not joking

Help your cause by tightening and spelling out in plain language what those terms mean for the various ways you wish to use them

It would help if they (or you?) knew the rules.

Here's the actual rule text of said trait:

Psionics Expanded wrote:
Psionic Knack: You are naturally psionically gifted, even if you dabble in other studies. Pick a class with a manifester level when you gain this trait—your manifester level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t raise your manifester level above your current Hit Dice. You must have a level in the class chosen to gain this benefit.

It's meant for multiclassing.


Psionic Knack is just like Magical Knack in that it's an aid for multiclass characters.

A Rogue 2/Psion 5 has a Manifester level of 5, but with Psionic Knack, his manifest level is 7. A Rogue 1/Psion 5 has a Manifest of 5, but with Psionic Knack, his Manifester level is 6, because his Hit Die is only 6.

Also, a Psion 3/Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 2 has a manifester level of 3/2 and Psionic Knack would allow one of those two levels to increase by +2.

It's been mentioned multiple times in this thread the Psionic's Unleashed is, typically, only 'broken' because of misreading of the rules or a lack of knowledge on the GM's part and deception on the player's part.


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BB36 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
A lot
I'm glad you don't like abusing rule systems. I am glad that you did your best to keep Psionics on an even keel. Liking them as they are different is great. However, that is not what it's about, it's about how nomenclature used in Psionics allows things to be abused

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

Or in other words, what it's called doesn't matter. What it does is what matters. The nomenclature has nothing to do with abuse, it's the people who abuse that have a lot to do with abuse.

BB36 wrote:
When saying "Psionic Fighters" I purposely made sure not to use a real class as to not draw the ire of a fanboi/gurl of said class. But the analogy holds. Too many I've met at Cons, local groups, etc those that play Psions (one of the reasons I wouldn't let them be played in my world, save as NPC villians) seem to think that Class "ABC" Psionic >= similar Class "ABC" mundane and THEN the Psionics is added in making Psion classes superior. Which to some is "just the natural order"

I can't answer for the people you have met. Maybe they find the psionics system easier to play, and hence superior to any others, I can't tell. All I can tell you is that a great deal of effort went into Psionics Unleashed (and I think into 3.5 psionics before it) to keep it all balanced with the existing systems. The Soulknife was balanced with the fighter as a yardstick, the psion against the wizard, etc.

BB36 wrote:

Now for myself, I look at the terms used in Psionics and how they really need to be tightened up.

What does "Manifester Level" mean in psionics? In many cases it means "Caster Level" where a 1st Level Psion is a 1st level Manifester. Now take the Trait "Psionic Knack" that bumps up the "Manifester Level +2"

Psionic powers are manifested, while spells are cast. Any time you see the term "Manifester" it is the same as the term "Caster" - it refers to a class that can manifest powers, just as "Caster" refers to any class that can cast spells.

Psionic Knack is a trait that effects a manifester the way Magical Knack effects a caster. I know, I wrote it and proposed it.

BB36 wrote:
Now there are some who can point to that meaning their Psion is a 3rd level Manifester and 3rd level manifesters know powers as a 3rd level Psion. I'm not joking

A 3rd level psion IS a 3rd level manifester, the way a 3rd level wizard is a 3rd level caster. Manifester levels from different classes do not stack together, just as caster levels from different classes do not stack together.

The one way in which psionics is different from magic in this regard is that the the psionic power points form a single pool. The points from levels of different psionic classes are worked out separately and all added into the pool. Otherwise, if you are a 3rd level psion/2nd level psychic warrior, you can only manifest a psion power at 3rd level, and a psychic warrior power at 2nd level.

BB36 wrote:
Help your cause by tightening and spelling out in plain language what those terms mean for the various ways you wish to use them

It actually couldn't be any simpler; everything you mention is explained clearly and concisely in the rules. Of course this does necessitate actually reading the rules, and this is often where things fall down when a player turns up with a copy of the rules under their arm and character sheet in hand to a DM that has never seen either before. There are cheating players out there who will rely on this, and a gift for BS, to try and 'win' the game.


Tels wrote:

Psionic Knack is just like Magical Knack in that it's an aid for multiclass characters.

A Rogue 2/Psion 5 has a Manifester level of 5, but with Psionic Knack, his manifest level is 7. A Rogue 1/Psion 5 has a Manifest of 5, but with Psionic Knack, his Manifester level is 6, because his Hit Die is only 6.

Also, a Psion 3/Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 2 has a manifester level of 3/2 and Psionic Knack would allow one of those two levels to increase by +2.

It's been mentioned multiple times in this thread the Psionic's Unleashed is, typically, only 'broken' because of misreading of the rules or a lack of knowledge on the GM's part and deception on the player's part.

I wonder, does that allow a psion to go beyond his Manifester level in spending points ?

Does it increase the ammount of PP they get based on their ability score/level ?

Part of the reason I am asking is because I am considering using the psionic system but have a houserule in place : "Spell casting classes stack together to determine caster level, levels in non-caster classes count as half, rounded down, to determine caster level."

This makes it easier to multi-class casters and keep them viable in various ways casters are meant to be according to their role, I'd simply treat psionics as caster levels for this purposes but I am wondering wether it should increase the maximum amount of points one can put in the use of a single power. I am inclined not to allow that, any opinions ?


As far as I can tell, you can put as many points into a power as your Manifester level allows. So if that same Rogue2/Psion 5 has Psionic Knack, he can spend 7 power points on a power. However, he still only has the power points available to him of a 5th level Psion, so he'll be burning through his points faster than a normal 5th level Psion.

It's the same as if a 5th level Wizard 2nd level Rogue cast Fireball with Magical Knack. It would deal 7d6 damage because his effective Caster level is 7th.

As for your proposed House Rule, how does this interact with Spell Level progression? Would a Wizard 10 Fighter 10 have the access to 8th level spells? Or only 5th level spells? Same process for Psionics. Would a Psion 10 Fighter 10 have access to 8th level Powers or 5th level powers? What about power points? Would ever 2 levels in a non-psionic class increase his available Power Point pool as if he had leveled up in a psionic class by one?

Whatever you do for one, should be done for the other as well. If the half-caster levels count for access to higher level spells, then half-psionic levels should count for access to higher level powers, and since higher level powers cost a lot more than lower level ones, they should stack for access to power-pools as well.

I think, if you did this, you'd be seeing a lot more Gish character running around. The most effective of which would be a Wizard/Martial. A multi-class Sorcerer/Martial would be missing out on a lot of the Bloodline powers, while a Wizard won't be missing out on much of his school abilities (some can be truly worthless).

I should warn you to be wary of a Sorcerer/Paladin however. That is someone who would be truly terrifying as an enemy, especially a Dragon Disciple/Paladin. Talk about being able to tear things apart. The Sorcerer levels would count as half Paladin Caster levels and the Paladin levels would count as half Sorcerer caster levels.

A Sorcerer/Oracle would also be an interesting combo as a 10/10 split would result in a 15/15 caster.

You're almost looking at doing away with Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge as a large part of their abilities is being gained for free.

Definitely an interesting house-rule and I'd suggest you start a new thread to seek advice on it from more people.


Tels wrote:
As for your proposed House Rule, how does this interact with Spell Level progression? Would a Wizard 10 Fighter 10 have the access to 8th level spells? Or only 5th level spells?

it wouldn't, it works much like magical knack in increasing CL

Tels wrote:
Same process for Psionics. Would a Psion 10 Fighter 10 have access to 8th level Powers or 5th level powers?

No access to higher level psionics, just as for casters

Tels wrote:
What about power points? Would ever 2 levels in a non-psionic class increase his available Power Point pool as if he had leveled up in a psionic class by one?

Well here is where I start getting a bit divided, I was wondering wether psionic knack did that, bonus spells and bonus PP do not follow the same progression and psions get the PP regardless of their maximum power level.

Tels wrote:
I should warn you to be wary of a Sorcerer/Paladin however. That is someone who would be truly terrifying as an enemy, especially a Dragon Disciple/Paladin. Talk about being able to tear things apart. The Sorcerer levels would count as half Paladin Caster levels and the Paladin levels would count as half Sorcerer caster levels.

I got one of those, he is a 4th lvl paladin, 1st lvl sorcerer and 8th lvl DD at the moment. He has the spell roster of a 4th lvl paladin and a 7th level sorcerer, as usual. His caster level for both classes comes down to :

effective Caster Levels = 1 (pal) +1 (sorc) +6 (DD) = 8
effective non-caster levels = 3 (pal) +2 (DD) = 5

since the non-effective CL count as half it adds 2 (2.5 rounded down) for a total effective CL for all his classes of 10.

So divine favor would add +3 luck bonus and a fireball would deal 10d6 damage. Likewise our mystic theurge 3 wiz/3 cleric/10 MT casts her spells at level 13 effectiveness. (I do not also use magical knack by the way). So, considering this, and that my rules work pretty much like psionic knack does :

1) do you think multi-class psions should be able to increase the maximum PP they put into a power ?

2) Should they continue gaining points by key score / level for effective manifester level ?

* I am inclined to say yes to #1 and probably no to #2, but like to hear another opinion on this matter.

Tels wrote:

Grand Lodge

Fabius Maximus wrote:

It would help if they (or you?) knew the rules.

Here's the actual rule text of said trait:

Psionics Expanded wrote:
Psionic Knack: You are naturally psionically gifted, even if you dabble in other studies. Pick a class with a manifester level when you gain this trait—your manifester level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t raise your manifester level above your current Hit Dice. You must have a level in the class chosen to gain this benefit.
It's meant for multiclassing.

I do know the rules and I know it's meant for Multiclassing - still I've seen it abused trying to be used without multiclassing and then when they acquiesce to needing multiple levels, more than a few times they think they still move up in Psion CLASS Level abilities

That is what I've been stating all along


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BB36 wrote:

I do know the rules and I know it's meant for Multiclassing - still I've seen it abused trying to be used without multiclassing and then when they acquiesce to needing multiple levels, more than a few times they think they still move up in Psion CLASS Level abilities

That is what I've been stating all along

You mean the players were cheats, and that's the real problem. Why did they choose psionics as the system to use to cheat? Well probably because it is the most common set of rules that aren't core that may be used or whose use could be 'justified' on imposing onto a DM who has not seen them before.

If it wasn't psionics it'd be something else - the problem is in the players, not the system the DM hasn't read or that the cheating players think they can BS their way through.


I think, if you're going to introduce Psionics with your houserule, you should keep the half-manifester bit for power points as well. It's a little unfair that the Magic users get auto-scaling powers for free, while Psionics does not. But I'm going to go ahead and plot out what really happens with a Manifest vs Caster using your same multiclass choice and houserule.

Psioncis have to pay more power points to achieve the same result that a caster gets for simply getting a higher caster level. A 10d6 Fireball costs the Sorcerer the same as a 5d6 Fireball but the same is not true for a Manifester.

We shall assume in both cases, the Caster/Manifester's primary ability score is 18.

So, lets take a Fighter 3/Psion 2/Elocater 8 that way they'll have the same bonuses to level as your Sorcerer does. He'll have a Manifester of 10 (8 + (5/2) = 10) according to your houserule.

Elocater stacks with Psion to determine power points, so he has the same amount of points as an 8th level Psion, 58. He gains 16 power points from his ability score (8th level psion and an 18 ability score is 14 power points) for a total of 72 power points. We shall assume he has access to the Energy Ball power which is basically Fireball, but of whatever energy type the Manifester desires. It costs 10 Power Points for a 10d6 Energy Ball for the Manifester.

Your Sorcerer will have five 3rd level spells as your Sorcer/DD will have 7 effective Sorcerer levels for the purposes of determining spells known and spells per day. That means if your Sorcerer cast 4 Fireballs, his second level spells, his first level spells and his cantrips.

However, if the Psion cast 4 Energy balls at 10d6 each, that would cost 40 powerpoints, leaving him with only 32 power points left. Now that may seem like a lot, but as you saw with Energy Ball, manifesting a power at your maximum Manifester level eats through your Power Points very quickly. But unlike the Sorcerer, the Psion here will have access to 4th level powers, but each 4th level power costs 7 power points each, 10 for max manifester level.

So, with this particular multiclass, I'd say they are about the same power wise. A Psionic character always has to worry about resource management, more so than a Caster does because a Psionic can blow through all of his power points faster than a Caster can his spells.

==========================

So now we'll try something different.

Let's try a Fighter 10/ Wizard 5 and a Fighter 10/Psion 5. We'll be using an 18 Ability stat and the spell Lightning Bolt.

Now, according to your house rule, the Wizard and Psion both have effective an caster/manifester level of 10. The Wizard will have roughly 3 spells, but only 2 of which can be guaranteed to be Lightning Bolt, but we'll assume he's an evoker for maximum lightning.

The Wizard can cast 3 Lightning Bolts and each one will deal 10d6 damage. He still has his second, first and 0-level spells.

A Psio will have 35 power points, 25 from his class, 10 from his ability score. If he casts 3 Energy Lines at 10d6 each, that will cost him 30 power points leaving him with 5 left over.

In this situation, any spell the Wizard casts will have his full caster level. His Shocking Grasp will deal 5d6 points of damage period. In order for the Psion to do the same, he must spend 5 power points, and then he's completely dry on power points and nothing more than a fighter at this point.

In this scenario, the Caster comes out ahead of the Manifester.

==========================

The best thing I can think of, requires a bit more complexity. The bonus manifester levels provided by the non-manifesting classes, give power points according to your class, but only half of the ones available.

For example, take the Fighter/Psion above. A 10th level Psion has 88 power points and a 5th level Psion has 25 power points. So 88 - 25 is 63 and 63 / 2 is 31, so the Psion would have a total of 56 power points available from his class, but he would still only gain power points from his ability modifier according to his actual class. In this case, 10 power points because he's only a 5th level Psion.

This totals up to 66 power points. In this way, the Psion could cast 3 Energy Lines for 10d6 damage, and still have enough Power Points left over to sling out reasonable first, second and third level powers.

In the Fighter/Psion/Elocater above, there is only a 2 level increase in Manifester levels. 88 - 58 = 30/2 = 15, so the Elocater will get a slight increase in power points, but nothing that is going to make him drastically over-power the Sorcerer he was compared to.

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:

You mean the players were cheats, and that's the real problem. Why did they choose psionics as the system to use to cheat? Well probably because it is the most common set of rules that aren't core that may be used or whose use could be 'justified' on imposing onto a DM who has not seen them before.

If it wasn't psionics it'd be something else - the problem is in the players, not the system the DM hasn't read or that the cheating players think they can BS their way through.

If I may then, I need to pick your Brain. I know you stated it is obvious in the rules but somehow that is not the case.

I would like to point out that on page 135 of the "Psionics Expanded" in the "Psionic Power" Chapter that Manifester level is the Class Level

Therefore, my player reads that "Psionic Knack" raises his Manifester Level by 2, he has 7 levels in another class, therefore his Psion has the equivalent of a full 4th level Psion, minus the Special Abilities and effects on Psi Crystals, etc

That also means though he is a 2nd level caster, the +2 to his current manifester level is 4th so he can take "Expanded Knowledge" Feats

Due to what is stated on page 135, how am I supposed to tell him he's wrong?

Thanks in advance


BB36 wrote:
If I may then, I need to pick your Brain. I know you stated it is obvious in the rules but somehow that is not the case.

Of course you may.

BB36 wrote:
I would like to point out that on page 135 of the "Psionics Expanded" in the "Psionic Power" Chapter that Manifester level is the Class Level

Sure, and if you were a wizard, your caster level would be your class level. I don't have the supplement you refer to so I can't directly explain the context.

In fact, on DSP's website, Psionics Expanded is on pre-order only save for the serialised releases, and there's no page 135 there.

BB36 wrote:
Therefore, my player reads that "Psionic Knack" raises his Manifester Level by 2, he has 7 levels in another class, therefore his Psion has the equivalent of a full 4th level Psion, minus the Special Abilities and effects on Psi Crystals, etc

He is a 2nd level Psion manifesting as a 4th level psion. He has all the powers and abilities of a 2nd level psion, but any powers he manifests are at 4th level rather than 2nd because his manifester level is raised by 2 - just as with Magical Knack in respect to casters, in fact. He gets no extra powers or abilities from the psion class because he is still a 2nd level psion - only his manifesting level has changed. You can tell him from the guy that wrote Psionic Knack that this is how it is meant to work regardless of typos or ambiguous wording elsewhere.

BB36 wrote:
That also means though he is a 2nd level caster, the +2 to his current manifester level is 4th so he can take "Expanded Knowledge" Feats

Technically true, he can, but see below.

BB36 wrote:
Due to what is stated on page 135, how am I supposed to tell him he's wrong?

Read the feat and you will see:

Benefit: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list, even if that power is already on your class’s power list.

So as he is a 2nd level psion (in class), he can only manifest 1st level powers. Taking Expanded Knowledge means therefore he can take a single 0-level power. Personally I'd take another level of Psion before doing so.


From Page 77 of Psionic's Unleashed.

Mainfester Level wrote:

The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which for most manifesting characters is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level). See Augment under Descriptive Text, below. You can manifest a power at a lower manifester level than normal, but the manifester level must be high enough for you to manifest the power in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same manifester level.

In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your manifester level, this adjustment applies not only to all effects based on manifester level (such as range, duration, and augmentation potential) but also to your manifester level check to overcome your target’s power resistance and to the manifester level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

You tell your player that Manifester level is exactly like caster level. If you have some method of increasing your effective caster level, without actually increasing your class level, such as through an ioun stone, or trait; it still does not actually grant you access to higher level spells.

A 1st level Wizard/5th level Fighter with Magical Knack and the +1 Caster level Ioun stone has a Caster level of 4th, but still only has access to first level spells.

A 1st level Psion/5th level Fighter with Psionic Knack has a 3rd level Manifester level, but still only has access to first level powers.

Psionics Unleashed should be viewed as the Core Rule Book of Psionics, while Psioncis Expanded should be viewed as the Advanced Player's Guide of Psionics. The Core Rules are the Core Rules and unless something specifically says something like, "This supersedes the normal rules for Manifester levles" then all of the normal rules apply.

Your Manifester level determines how many Power Points you can put into a Power, what your bonus for overcoming Power Resistance is, and the DC for dispelling your Power. It doesn't grant you access to higher level powers, no matter how many bonuses you manage to squeeze out.

For instance, the Feat Overchannel allows you to increase your effective Manifester level for a short time. However, a 6th level Psion with Overchannel does not suddenly gain access to 4th level Powers because Overchannel increased his Manifester level to 7th level. He's still only a 6th level Psion.

The 'hypothetical player' has found a section of the, effectively, Advanced Player's Guide of Psionics, that is a little murky, and is trying to advocate a reading of the rules that disregards the Core Rule Book of Psionics for his benefit.

This is again, a reference to the underlying problem that you are trying to assign to Psionics. The Player's are intending to break Psionics. The Player's are intending to play dishonestly. The Playerls are trying to twist the rules to achieve more power.

Those self-same players will do the same thing with every other system out there. These are the kind of players that want to use Simulacrum spell to make copies of Efreets so they can have a creature that, once per day, can grant them 3 wishes and is totally under their control.

These players aren't out to 'play' the game, they are out to 'win' the game. They don't want to play with the same rules as everyone else, they want the rules to be unique to their character. They want their character to be the best, the most bad ass, the greatest out of all the other members of the party.

That is a fault on the players, not the Psionic's System.

I've only been exposed to the Psionic's Rules for a short time, and, while I've seen some powerful combos (see my post about Wounding Attack above), I haven't seen anything that is inherently broken.

As best as I can tell, the playtesters and designers went above and beyond the call so that there wouldn't be a 'one true combo of ultimate power' that exists in Psionics.

[Edit] Ninja'd by Dabbler.

Also, Dabbler, I don' think there are any 0-level Powers. There are Powers that can be reduced to a 0 PP cost by expending your Focus, but there aren't any 0-level powers, at least not that I'm aware of. So if there aren't any 0-level powers, then a 2nd level Psion can't take Expanded Knowledge at all, because he has no power levels lower than 1st level powers. Sure, he technically qualifies for it, but he's not going to be able to select any powers to add to his list, therefore, it's a feat wasted.


Yes, that was my point.

And yes, any player arguing with you over the meaning of manifester level when it states so clearly in the core rules what it means is basically trying to cheat.


Tels wrote:
Also, Dabbler, I don' think there are any 0-level Powers.

Technically, I think Talents(Psionics Expanded) are lv0 powers.


I haven't touched Psioncis Expanded yet, that's why I said, "at least not that I am aware of" because I know there is another book that I haven't read yet.

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:

Yes, that was my point.

And yes, any player arguing with you over the meaning of manifester level when it states so clearly in the core rules what it means is basically trying to cheat.

Okay, can Soul Knives make/use Psi-Crystals?


Soulknives are not normally manifesters, and are not treated as such save in special circumstances which are clearly written in as exceptions. You have to be a manifester to gain a psicrystal, so no under normal circumstances they cannot.

I think there are some archetypes of soulknife that can use powers and have a manifester level, and they can, and obviously a multi-classed soulknife whose other class is a psionic manifester can have one based on that class.


Dreamscarred Press did a good work except for one thing, the XP cost conversion, I would instead implement a backlash system (and I do as a house rule), like the one presented in ELH, for every 100 XP you do 1d6 points of damage, this damage can't be prevented, if the power have a duration different than instantaneous you do the damage every round. I like more this approximation because I feel fits better with the flavor, like when someone use a super power and nosebleed.

So if you manifest Reality Revision instead of use a crystal (specially this is why I don't like it, Psionics doesn't need materials) you do 50d6 backlash damage.

Grand Lodge

Quote:
50d6 backlash damage

I don't want to roll that.

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:

Yes, that was my point.

And yes, any player arguing with you over the meaning of manifester level when it states so clearly in the core rules what it means is basically trying to cheat.

Another thing on Psionics Expanded the Soulknife subtype Armored Blade:

Is the Enhancement Bonus split up between the Armor and Weapons? So if a 7th level has a +2, can the Weapons and Armor be +2 at the same time OR does the maximum enhancements when added together not able to exceed +2?

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Quote:
50d6 backlash damage
I don't want to roll that.

Ah, that's one where you can easily say the damage is 175 points (average roll 3.5 * 50)

Grand Lodge

Doing that means few characters will ever manifest that power.


Pathfinder got rid of XP cost too, should a wizard roll to see how much damage he takes from casting Wish?

BB36 wrote:
Is the Enhancement Bonus split up between the Armor and Weapons? So if a 7th level has a +2, can the Weapons and Armor be +2 at the same time OR does the maximum enhancements when added together not able to exceed +2?

I swear I've seen this asked before, I just can't remember where or if I was the one that asked it...


The problem with psionics is mostly a perception issue. It isn't the high levels, or even the mid levels, but the lowest levels where balance can be completely out of whack. This is where the first experience of psionics occurs, and this experience can color all further experience. Let me give an example:

Elan Shaper, 1st level. Int 18 (16 + 2). Feats: Psionic Talent (x3). Favored class bonus: power point.

That gives the Elan 14 power points (2 from class, 2 from attribute, 9 from feats and 1 from favored class bonus), equivalent to 14 1st level spells. Granted, he had to burn his extra two feats on it (elans get the psionic talent feat for free), but if you asked a sorcerer if he would give up all his 1st level feats for 9 1st level spell slots, I don't know a sorcerer who wouldn't jump on that.

Now we go to powers: He chooses Matter agitation (equivilent to the 2nd level spell heat metal, only better, since it can be used on flesh directly, and tops at 1d6 points of damage per round), Astral construct (equivilent to all 9 summon monster spells), and ectoplasmic creation (equivilent to minor creation, a 4th level spell). He also gets his two talents, so he picks crystal shard and ghost sound, plus his at will detect psionics.

So you got a guy who is in leather armor (no armor check penalty, so it doesn't matter that he doesn't have the proficiency), can effectively cast 14 times a day, casting "spells" up to fourth level, all at 1st level. It doesn't matter that by 6th level, the balance between the psion and the sorcerer has been fixed and the psion could be considered slightly less powerful comparatively, the GM and other players opinions have already been set: "OMG, Psionics is soooo overpowered."


BB36 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Yes, that was my point.

And yes, any player arguing with you over the meaning of manifester level when it states so clearly in the core rules what it means is basically trying to cheat.

Another thing on Psionics Expanded the Soulknife subtype Armored Blade:

Is the Enhancement Bonus split up between the Armor and Weapons? So if a 7th level has a +2, can the Weapons and Armor be +2 at the same time OR does the maximum enhancements when added together not able to exceed +2?

I'd have to check...I just got hold of the supplement and I haven't read it properly yet.

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
BB36 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Yes, that was my point.

And yes, any player arguing with you over the meaning of manifester level when it states so clearly in the core rules what it means is basically trying to cheat.

Another thing on Psionics Expanded the Soulknife subtype Armored Blade:

Is the Enhancement Bonus split up between the Armor and Weapons? So if a 7th level has a +2, can the Weapons and Armor be +2 at the same time OR does the maximum enhancements when added together not able to exceed +2?

I'd have to check...I just got hold of the supplement and I haven't read it properly yet.

I would appreciate that.

This is something else, can Soul Knives use/make Psi Crystals?


See my second answer above.

"Soulknives are not normally manifesters, and are not treated as such save in special circumstances which are clearly written in as exceptions. You have to be a manifester to gain a psicrystal, so no under normal circumstances they cannot.

I think there are some archetypes of soulknife that can use powers and have a manifester level, and they can, and obviously a multi-classed soulknife whose other class is a psionic manifester can have one based on that class."

Grand Lodge

Azten wrote:
Pathfinder got rid of XP cost too, should a wizard roll to see how much damage he takes from casting Wish?
Personally, I don't think "Wish" should be anything less than an hour casting with all sorts of sacrifices needed, same for "Miracle", but that's just me.
Azten wrote:
BB36 wrote:
Is the Enhancement Bonus split up between the Armor and Weapons? So if a 7th level has a +2, can the Weapons and Armor be +2 at the same time OR does the maximum enhancements when added together not able to exceed +2?
I swear I've seen this asked before, I just can't remember where or if I was the one that asked it...

Well, I think it is a very good thing to find out.

As an Armored Fist gains more Enhancement Bonuses faster, there would be no reason to ever play a regular Soulknife


Can you tell me if it's changed at all since it showed up in Unlimited Possibilities? I don't have the finished book.

Grand Lodge

Azten wrote:
Can you tell me if it's changed at all since it showed up in Unlimited Possibilities? I don't have the finished book.

Sorry, I don't have "Unlimited Possibilities"

One of the few psionic books I don't own


No worries then, I'll look over the one I've got and see if there really is no reason to play a normal Soulknife.

Grand Lodge

Azten wrote:
No worries then, I'll look over the one I've got and see if there really is no reason to play a normal Soulknife.

That would only be IF the Armored Fist can give the full bonus to both the Weapon and Armor

Starting at 3rd Level, the Soulknife can add +1 to the weapon. That goes up +1 every three levels, 3rd/+1, 6th/+2, 9th/+3 etc to a max of +5

The Armored Blade starts at 3rd/+1, 6th/+2, 8th/+3, 11th/+4, 13th/+5, 16th/+6 and maximum of +7 at 18th

As the Armored Blade is almost exactly like the Soulknife, why play a Soulknife?


Azten wrote:
Pathfinder got rid of XP cost too, should a wizard roll to see how much damage he takes from casting Wish?

I´m not sure what do you mean with that, but Pathfinder chance XP cost for material cost at the rate of 1XP = 5GP, and that fit well the flavor for spellcaster (at least most of the times) but not for Psionics


Why not? Psychic energy could easily use up a material component, and a focus is common use for modern day psychics, such as a crystal ball or tarot cards.

Dark Archive

The first 100 posts took long enough to read, I will take a break from the thread. Please forgive me if this is stated in the next 120 posts but before I leave I wanted to say the 15 minute adventure day is the fault of the judge. If s/he regularly had only 1 or2 fights a day than that judge is actively encouraging the 15 workday. The judge should aim to have a similar number of days with 3/4 or even an 5/6 encounter day. That gives each type of class a chance to shine in regards to resource management, including the full bab class that just keeps swinging all day long. It also encourage limited resource classes to conserve their power for in case they need it later in the day.

I love both the flavor and machanical aspects of recent Psionics power point system.


Dilvias wrote:

Elan Shaper, 1st level. Int 18 (16 + 2). Feats: Psionic Talent (x3). Favored class bonus: power point.

That gives the Elan 14 power points (2 from class, 2 from attribute, 9 from feats and 1 from favored class bonus), equivalent to 14 1st level spells. Granted, he had to burn his extra two feats on it (elans get the psionic talent feat for free), but if you asked a sorcerer if he would give up all his 1st level feats for 9 1st level spell slots, I don't know a sorcerer who wouldn't jump on that.

Except, that doesn't work like that.

Psionic Talent wrote:

Benefit: When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 2 power points.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of power points you gain increases by 1.

So you would gain 2 from Psion, 2 from Int, 4 from the feat and 1 from Favored class for 9 Power Points.

The combination you really want is a little different. Take Wild Talen, which gives 2 Power Points, and Psionic Talent, which gives an additional +1 Power Point. Now you get 5 Power Points instead of 4 from Feats. This gives you 10 Power Points at first level.

Dilvias wrote:

Now we go to powers: He chooses Matter agitation (equivilent to the 2nd level spell heat metal, only better, since it can be used on flesh directly, and tops at 1d6 points of damage per round), Astral construct (equivilent to all 9 summon monster spells), and ectoplasmic creation (equivilent to minor creation, a 4th level spell). He also gets his two talents, so he picks crystal shard and ghost sound, plus his at will detect psionics.

So you got a guy who is in leather armor (no armor check penalty, so it doesn't matter that he doesn't have the proficiency), can effectively cast 14 times a day, casting "spells" up to fourth level, all at 1st level. It doesn't matter that by 6th level, the balance between the psion and the sorcerer has been fixed and the psion could be considered slightly less powerful comparatively, the GM and other players opinions have already been set: "OMG, Psionics is soooo overpowered."

Some things to keep in mind. Matter Agitation has a duration of Concentration up to 1 round/level. That means, if he wants to use Matter Agitation, the Psion has to spend a Standard Action each round to keep it going. Where as Heat Metal simply works for 7 rounds.

Heat Metal is kind of like an RPG, fire it, and it works. Where as Matter Agitation is like a Car bomb, I can't just fire it, I have to drive it myself into a building, guiding it along the way, then it will work.

======================================

Astral Construct is not the equivalent of all Summoning Spells. Not by a long shot.

Summoning Spells can be reduced to cast 1d+1 of a lower level Summoning Table, Astral Construct always makes exactly One construct per manifestation. Also, Constructs don't come will spell-like abilities or spells like higher level Summons do (with the exception of Concussive Blast and Energy Bolt). Nor do the have all the special abilities that a Summon might have (like a Lantern Archon's Light Rays).

Astral Construct is simply a body on the field to flank, attack or draw attacks, while Summons can be many bodies, or buff the party, heal the party, debuff enemies, pierce DR etc. Astral Construct can't do any of this.

It is my opinion that Astral Construct is inferior to Summoning Spells.

======================================

As for Ectoplasmic Creation? It is is exactly like Minor Creation. So? Do you really think that Minor Creation should be a 4th level spell? Is it in the same category as the ability to conjure forth tentacles that reach forth from the ground to crush your enemies? Or the ability to simply bend space and time to move you from one point to another? Or the ability to alter the molecular structure of your flesh so that it takes the hardest known element in the universe, simply to cut your skin?

Is the ability to conjure up a log, or a shirt (Minor Creation) in the same class as the ability to cast forth your mind across the planar boundaries of this world, grab hold of a creature from a different plane, and drag it forth to appear in your world and force it to submit to your will and do whatever it is you need of it even if it goes against the very nature of it's being? How about the ability to summon down the destruction and power of a volcano, raining molten rocks and ash wherever you desire?

How about the ability to defy the natural order of the world, forcing the dead to rise and serve you for all eternity? Or to send forth a nightmare so powerful horrifying, those who experience it simply drop dead in terror? Or the power to turn a small army of humans into giants? Or the ability to simply stick your hand into a cavern wall, and shape it into whatever form you desire?

Is Minor Creation really the same caliber as all the ones mentioned here? I think not. To say that Psionics is "over powered" because I can conjure up a shirt for me to wear at first level is patently ridiculous in my book.


BB36 wrote:

Starting at 3rd Level, the Soulknife can add +1 to the weapon. That goes up +1 every three levels, 3rd/+1, 6th/+2, 9th/+3 etc to a max of +5

The Armored Blade starts at 3rd/+1, 6th/+2, 8th/+3, 11th/+4, 13th/+5, 16th/+6 and maximum of +7 at 18th

You're misreading the table. The enhanced mind blade ability of the base soulknife advances every other level, starting at 3rd. It maxes out at +9. The maximum enhancement bonus is what upgrades every 3rd level and maxes out at +5, like a normal weapon. Any level where your enhanced mind blade ability is higher than your maximum enhancement bonus, you are required to utilize the leftover enhancement room for special abilities (keen, etc.) The armored blade has a different progression for the Enhanced Mind Blade ability (now called Enhanced Mind Armaments), and that maxes out at +7. It retains the normal limit on maximum enhancement bonus, but doesn't have as high an overall enhancement as the base soulknife. That said, both the mind blade and the mind armor have the available enhancement bonus (so at max you might have a +5 flaming burst mind blade and +4 ghost touch mind armor, for example).


Tels wrote:
Dilvias wrote:

Elan Shaper, 1st level. Int 18 (16 + 2). Feats: Psionic Talent (x3). Favored class bonus: power point.

That gives the Elan 14 power points (2 from class, 2 from attribute, 9 from feats and 1 from favored class bonus), equivalent to 14 1st level spells. Granted, he had to burn his extra two feats on it (elans get the psionic talent feat for free), but if you asked a sorcerer if he would give up all his 1st level feats for 9 1st level spell slots, I don't know a sorcerer who wouldn't jump on that.

Except, that doesn't work like that.

Psionic Talent wrote:

Benefit: When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 2 power points.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of power points you gain increases by 1.

So you would gain 2 from Psion, 2 from Int, 4 from the feat and 1 from Favored class for 9 Power Points.

The combination you really want is a little different. Take Wild Talen, which gives 2 Power Points, and Psionic Talent, which gives an additional +1 Power Point. Now you get 5 Power Points instead of 4 from Feats. This gives you 10 Power Points at first level.

I think it does work like that, the feat usually gives you +2 PP every time after the first the gain increases by +1 which comes down to +3 PP, then +4 PP etc. Still not worth it for later levels though, it is a trap (now +2 per feat I could consider remotely and then probably only for a generalist or psychic warrior that gets some extra feats, and only if you intend to go crazy on this feat).

Tels wrote:

Astral Construct is not the equivalent of all Summoning Spells. Not by a long shot.

Summoning Spells can be reduced to cast 1d+1 of a lower level Summoning Table, Astral Construct always makes exactly One construct per manifestation. Also, Constructs don't come will spell-like abilities or spells like higher level Summons do (with the exception of Concussive Blast and Energy Bolt). Nor do the have all the special abilities that a Summon might have (like a Lantern Archon's Light Rays).

Astral Construct is simply a body on the field to flank, attack or draw attacks, while Summons can be many bodies, or buff the party, heal the party, debuff enemies, pierce DR etc. Astral Construct can't do any of this.

It is my opinion that Astral Construct is inferior to Summoning Spells.

In some aspects it is, though has quite a few boons too :

- You can control it perfectly as a free action, it is an extension of your will

- as a construct it comes with a bunch of immunities that are sometimes hard to get with summons.

- it doesn't count as a summoned creature so many classic spells don't work to ward away or banish an astral construct.

- You can adjust it to the situation and the weaknesses of your enemies investing abilities where you need, summons can be arguably better packages but this includes a bunch of abilities you don't need.

- Out of the box combat statistics are better than summons.

* from flavor perspective I like the astral construct more, not because the astral construct is so cool, though it is ok, but because summons that are kinda but are not really are a bit meh. Just keep specific creatures for planar ally and binding spells. As a side benefit this keeps players out off the bestiary books.


AnnoyingOrange wrote:
I think it does work like that, the feat usually gives you +2 PP every time after the first the gain increases by +1 which comes down to +3 PP, then +4 PP etc. Still not worth it for later levels though, it is a trap (now +2 per feat I could consider remotely and then probably only for a generalist or psychic warrior that gets some extra feats, and only if you intend to go crazy on this feat).

This is correct. However, Psionic Body with +2 hp per psionic feat IS a good one to take if you have bonus feats and you plan on them all being psionic feats.

On the subject of Astral Construct, I agree it has it's advantages, but overall the Summon Monster spells are better.


Dabbler wrote:
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
I think it does work like that, the feat usually gives you +2 PP every time after the first the gain increases by +1 which comes down to +3 PP, then +4 PP etc. Still not worth it for later levels though, it is a trap (now +2 per feat I could consider remotely and then probably only for a generalist or psychic warrior that gets some extra feats, and only if you intend to go crazy on this feat).

This is correct. However, Psionic Body with +2 hp per psionic feat IS a good one to take if you have bonus feats and you plan on them all being psionic feats.

On the subject of Astral Construct, I agree it has it's advantages, but overall the Summon Monster spells are better.

I agree on both accounts :

Perhaps psionic talent should have worked like psionic body or treat your key ability for a single psionic class as 4 points higher for the purpose of bonus PP, it would end up giving a 'bonus power slot' of your highest level power.

Summon monster spells are more versatile, though not universally better they do score better overall looking at their usefulness. It's just that I do not like summoning and the few advantages they do have would be enough to compell me to drop summon monster for astral construct if I had the choice, I wish they would replace the entire summon monster line to be honest.


AnnoyingOrange wrote:
Tels wrote:

Except, that doesn't work like that.

Psionic Talent wrote:

Benefit: When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 2 power points.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of power points you gain increases by 1.

So you would gain 2 from Psion, 2 from Int, 4 from the feat and 1 from Favored class for 9 Power Points.

The combination you really want is a little different. Take Wild Talen, which gives 2 Power Points, and Psionic Talent, which gives an additional +1 Power Point. Now you get 5 Power Points instead of 4 from Feats. This gives you 10 Power Points at first level.

I think it does work like that, the feat usually gives you +2 PP every time after the first the gain increases by +1 which comes down to +3 PP, then +4 PP etc. Still not worth it for later levels though, it is a trap (now +2 per feat I could consider remotely and then probably only for a generalist or psychic warrior that gets some extra feats, and only if you intend to go crazy on this feat).

It is a bit of a trap, although that is what psychic reformation is for. By seventh level, the extra pp isn't worth as much, so take a day and reset all your feats and powers, including getting rid of psychic reformation.

As for matter agitation, yes you have to maintain your concentration, but it is damage over time, as opposed to all at once. For one point, you do at first level 8d6+1d4+1 fire damage, no save, no targeting roll. It just takes a minute to do all the damage, and you can't do anything else at the time.

And whether minor creation (or ectoplasmic creation) is worth a 4th level spell or not depends on whether or not your GM lets you actually use it for the value of a 4th level spell. Note that the limit is by volume, not weight. So at 1st level, you can make 48 square feet of 1/4 inch board, which is almost enough to block a 5 x 10 foot passage. Now the question becomes things like can you use it to make a table, say... 4x8 with 4 legs? Or a desk with drawers? Or a canoe? Or can you manifest 480 square feet of .025 inch spider silk? Or... say spider silk armor of 1/2" thickness? Or fill a room with spider webs? Or a thin layer of extremely flammable oil? Slippery oil? Glue? Or can you use it to make food? (A cubic foot of steak can feed a lot of people... but since it disappears in an hour, is it satisfying?) It really depends on what your GM will let you get away with, and the limits of your creativity.


Seems you are right I didn't ever read that power, I think that will be my new method to 'reform' troublesome adventurers and criminals to lead productive lives for the good of the community so they can knit sweaters for the orphanage.

Seriously though that is a stupid power.. imo.


I don't like it myself, but I can't really find it to be broken. At best it makes the psion as flexible as the wizard.


Psychic Reformation doesn't come into its own until 13th level. At that point, you can augment it so that it doesn't have any penalties associated with it. So now you can spend 10 minutes (and 13 pp) to reset all powers, feats and skills. To anyone. (Note, the subject gets to choose, so you will need to mentally control them first if you want them to make really lousy choices. Like skill focus feats in skills he doesn't have any points in.)

Need knowledge: Elven art? Spend a few minutes and get 13 ranks into it, and impress the queen of the elves. Your fighter buddy just found a +5 holy demonbane icy burst dwarven longaxe that he wants to use, but he specialized in longsword? 10 minutes later, oh look, now he is an expert in the dwarven longaxe. Change powers to whatever you want, possibly adding expanded knowledge for powers on the other lists. Once you no longer need the power, change back. All for the cost of a 4th level power.


Dilvias wrote:

Psychic Reformation doesn't come into its own until 13th level. At that point, you can augment it so that it doesn't have any penalties associated with it. So now you can spend 10 minutes (and 13 pp) to reset all powers, feats and skills. To anyone. (Note, the subject gets to choose, so you will need to mentally control them first if you want them to make really lousy choices. Like skill focus feats in skills he doesn't have any points in.)

Need knowledge: Elven art? Spend a few minutes and get 13 ranks into it, and impress the queen of the elves. Your fighter buddy just found a +5 holy demonbane icy burst dwarven longaxe that he wants to use, but he specialized in longsword? 10 minutes later, oh look, now he is an expert in the dwarven longaxe. Change powers to whatever you want, possibly adding expanded knowledge for powers on the other lists. Once you no longer need the power, change back. All for the cost of a 4th level power.

yea, all those things you mention just make me dislike it more though, change your character everyday without a care.. stupid.. imo..

Not to say that there are no dumb spells that need banning in official paizo material, this one is just a bit worse than the typical 'oops' stuff.

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