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My partys Sorcerer just got Spiked Pit last level, and used it to devistating affect against some frost giants. I can see this (and Create Pit) becoming a regular thing, and it seems very BBEG breaking. I dont want every climactic battle they go into to start and end with "He is in a pit and we throw stuff at him till hes dead".
I like to reward ingenuity and all, but it looks like its going to get alot more boring for me to GM.
I dont want to completly negate this spell line, but I dont want to attack with flying creatures from here on out either.
Am I missing a simple idea, is climbing out of a pit actually really easy? Its 30 feet deep, effectivly trapping the mob for 2 rounds while my players are in no danger and my mob is getting pummpled.
Notice the Reflex negates line ?
high reflex and reflex rerolls = no effect
creatures with a good climb speed can get out without too much problem
flying enemies can't be effected
a BBEG with a simple fly spell beats this easily
For climbing read p91 core. Note that you can climb for 1/4 of your movement in a move action (so 1/2 per round if you take two move actions). If you take a -5 on the climb check you can even climb double as fast. The DC is tough for Frost Giants though.
Also note that anyone adjacent to the pit has to make a Refelx save at +2 to avoid falling in! This oncludes players wanting to target anyone inside the pit. Also note that it is entirely possible that the giants carry some rocks and ready action to throw them (hard cover if a pc simply peeks over, soft cover if he shoots a bow).
So, no, even against monster with such bad Reflex saves and climb skills I do not thinkt he Create Pit is OPed at all.
Roll your reflex save hidden, put on a big smile and say rejoice for the natural 20 you rolled.
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also once they've made the pit use your NPC's built for Bullrushing and Repositioning to throw them into their own pit :P
first time that sorc gets tossed into his own pit with whatever he trapped their first , mwhahaha ;)
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- You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size.
- it is 10-by-10, it can not often target multiple creatures and they still get a reflex save, a spell with a will or fortitude save usually manages to disable a single target on a failed save in some way.
- The edges are sloped, it is hard to approach and 'toss stuff at him' without making reflex saves themselves, unless they are flying in which case it is at least a partially moot point.
Climbing :
- A Climb check that fails by 4 or less means that you make no progress, and one that fails by 5 or more means that you fall from whatever height you have already attained.
- You try to climb more quickly than normal. By accepting a –5 penalty, you can move half your speed (instead of one-quarter your speed).
– +5 climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls, pretty much everyone can do this
- +10 climbing where you can brace opposite walls, large creatures can do this as well as some other creatures that have exceptional reach at the GMs option.
- A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks, it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.
* So typically difficult terrain can disallow the use of this spell since it isn't a horizontal surface.
* it can not be used if there is no applicable area 10 by 10 foot, so 9 foot wide hallways are out, unobstructed 10 by 10 foot spaces tend to be much less common than you think in a typical dungeon.
* Your (typical) frost giant has +13 on climb, it is large enough to brace opposite walls for a +10 bonus on climb and a move speed of 40 feet, taking this +23 modifier it can chance an accelerated climb taking a -5 penalty, it moves 20 feet as a move action on a roll of 7 or higher, in one round he could climb out of the pit if he manages to roll a 2 on his second move action (he does not need to accelerate for the remaining 10 feet, though I guess he has 10 feet move left if he does.)
* spiked pit is even easier to climb out at DC 20, though it does incur 1d6 damage it will almost guarantee an accelerated climb out for a creature like the frostgiant.
houserule :
* The spell needs a focus of 10 gold, not a big deal really, in my games I made it a component instead of a focus, which they have to keep track of and might have to have made. I increased the price to 25 gold for acid pit and hungry pit. I don't want them to spam it every encounter, it helps a bit.
also once they've made the pit use your NPC's built for Bullrushing and Repositioning to throw them into their own pit :P
first time that sorc gets tossed into his own pit with whatever he trapped their first , mwhahaha ;)
I really like this one.
Some more pit countermeasures for frost giants:
(1) Carry rocks. Ready an action to throw a rock at anyone who goes over to fire arrows down at you.
(2) Grapple. Rush in and grab an enemy in your first round. If you fall into a pit, drag them down with you.
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Frost Giant to Climb out is DC 20 they have climb skill of +13 need to roll 7 not to hard. Not stronger than Hold Monster. If realy that feed up with give bad guys poitions of fly.
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Frost Giant to Climb out is DC 20 they have climb skill of +13 need to roll 7 not to hard. Not stronger than Hold Monster. If realy that feed up with give bad guys poitions of fly.
They'd climb 10' per move action on a successful check, or 20' when using accelerate climb but suffer a -5 on the check. Fortunately they can brace against the opposite wall for +10 on this check meaning they can most likely bust out in a single round if they manage to roll a 2 or higher twice in a row, with some movement to spare.
My partys Sorcerer just got Spiked Pit last level, and used it to devistating affect against some frost giants. I can see this (and Create Pit) becoming a regular thing, and it seems very BBEG breaking. I dont want every climactic battle they go into to start and end with "He is in a pit and we throw stuff at him till hes dead".
I like to reward ingenuity and all, but it looks like its going to get alot more boring for me to GM.
I dont want to completly negate this spell line, but I dont want to attack with flying creatures from here on out either.
Am I missing a simple idea, is climbing out of a pit actually really easy? Its 30 feet deep, effectivly trapping the mob for 2 rounds while my players are in no danger and my mob is getting pummpled.
It's a 10' by 10' pit, and they are frost giants. The pit is barely big enough to fit one of them, it's like threatening a human with a 5' by 5' pit. You can practically step over it. Or they just hack a tree down and place it over the pit. Even if they fall in, they can chimney climb out of it very easily.
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It's a 10' by 10' pit, and they are frost giants. The pit is barely big enough to fit one of them....
Quite right. The frost giant is about 15 feet tall. The pit covers him to about halfway up his torso. Just stay in the pit and lob rocks while enjoying the cover. :)
Actually the pit can be very deep, it's just 10' x 10' wide at the opening. All the same, a 10' step is no biggy for a 15' tall biped.
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– +5 climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls, pretty much everyone can do this
This...seems wrong. Literally everyone can and must do it, which leads me to believe that it's already accounted for in the climb DC of the pit (or should be). Anything else feels wrong on a rather profound level, and smacks of trying to work around the intent of the rules...or at least it feels that way.
– - +10 climbing where you can brace opposite walls, large creatures can do this as well as some other creatures that have exceptional reach at the GMs option.
This, on the other hand, is a good point and one I'll make sure to use in future when my players pull out Create Pit.
Ban the spell.
Otherwise, lots of good suggestions above.
I have had the enemy bull rush (or hydraulic push) the PCs into their own pit in the past.
But what happens when the PCs, after some of the enemy fall into the pit, cast Wall of Ice (or stone, or force, etc) to seal the top of the pit? When the pit spell ends, the bottom of the pit moves upwards to end up back where it started - what happens to the creatures that are caught between the rising bottom and the newly created wall?
One thought would be that the break damage needed to break the wall is spread out amongst the creatures that are rising as the wall is "shattered" when the creatures are thrust throught it.
Anyone have any better solutions or rules that I missed?
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Keep in mind that with a frost giant at 15 feet tall, he can climb halfway out of the pit, grab PCs and throw them in from within the pit. Then he jumps the 20~ish feet down on top of them, and pummels them to death. Large, intelligent creatures will frequently use the party's spells against them if they can find a way.
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I would rule that the pit is cylindrical. Doesn't stop frost giants from getting the +10, but does stop the +5.– +5 climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls, pretty much everyone can do thisThis...seems wrong. Literally everyone can and must do it, which leads me to believe that it's already accounted for in the climb DC of the pit (or should be). Anything else feels wrong on a rather profound level, and smacks of trying to work around the intent of the rules...or at least it feels that way.
That's a perfect solution, and one I will adopt immediately. Thanks. :)
I would rule that the pit is cylindrical. Doesn't stop frost giants from getting the +10, but does stop the +5.– +5 climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls, pretty much everyone can do thisThis...seems wrong. Literally everyone can and must do it, which leads me to believe that it's already accounted for in the climb DC of the pit (or should be). Anything else feels wrong on a rather profound level, and smacks of trying to work around the intent of the rules...or at least it feels that way.
Personally I would just let them have the +5 bonus, nobody is arguing that the create pit spells are weak, furthermore they are widely popular so it seems entirely reasonable to use the rules to limit it's effectiveness a bit.
Indeed it should be rare that they can not use the corners to climb out but not inconceivable, such as a character trying to climb sideways to prevent harm in some way, or when multiple creatures try to climb up or down at the same time, alternatively the GM can judge that not all creatures are capable of bracing against perpendicular walls and the description of the wall matches the climb DC.
That's a perfect solution, and one I will adopt immediately. Thanks. :)I would rule that the pit is cylindrical. Doesn't stop frost giants from getting the +10, but does stop the +5.– +5 climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls, pretty much everyone can do thisThis...seems wrong. Literally everyone can and must do it, which leads me to believe that it's already accounted for in the climb DC of the pit (or should be). Anything else feels wrong on a rather profound level, and smacks of trying to work around the intent of the rules...or at least it feels that way.
It's also cheating your players (or perhaps the NPCs). The spell clearly says it's 10 x 10, which precludes a circular shape. Nobody says that when talking about circles, only squares and rectangles. If it was circular in nature, it would have said a 5-foot radius instead.
It's a 10' by 10' pit, and they are frost giants. The pit is barely big enough to fit one of them....Quite right. The frost giant is about 15 feet tall. The pit covers him to about halfway up his torso. Just stay in the pit and lob rocks while enjoying the cover. :)
It would take a caster level of 4 to make the pit 20' deep, and by the time you get Spiked Pit (6th level)you are looking at 30'. Roll a cask of oil into it at that point and throw in a torch. :)
It's a 10' by 10' pit, and they are frost giants. The pit is barely big enough to fit one of them, it's like threatening a human with a 5' by 5' pit. You can practically step over it. Or they just hack a tree down and place it over the pit. Even if they fall in, they can chimney climb out of it very easily.My partys Sorcerer just got Spiked Pit last level, and used it to devistating affect against some frost giants. I can see this (and Create Pit) becoming a regular thing, and it seems very BBEG breaking. I dont want every climactic battle they go into to start and end with "He is in a pit and we throw stuff at him till hes dead".
I like to reward ingenuity and all, but it looks like its going to get alot more boring for me to GM.
I dont want to completly negate this spell line, but I dont want to attack with flying creatures from here on out either.
Am I missing a simple idea, is climbing out of a pit actually really easy? Its 30 feet deep, effectivly trapping the mob for 2 rounds while my players are in no danger and my mob is getting pummpled.
People fall into wells all the time, and those are pre-existing (not suddenly appearing beneath you) and usually have signs and walls to prevent falling in. Having a 30' well suddenly open up underneath you is probably a more difficult situation to avoid than stepping over a 5' hole you are approaching as you walk/run.
Roll your reflex save hidden, put on a big smile and say rejoice for the natural 20 you rolled.creatures with natural climb speeds or burrowing,
The pit is an extradimensionary space, can burrow be used in this example or would the beasty be opening a portal to a level of hell or something? Interesting :)
My partys Sorcerer just got Spiked Pit last level, and used it to devistating affect against some frost giants.Another thing, in the case of intelligent humanoid type foes, have them reasonably equipped. Would a fighter of that level not have a ranged option? No, why doesn't the giant have his boulders? What happens when the giant pulls out and equips his tower shield?
-James
I'm familiar with the scenario SterlingEdge is talking about, and the 15' giant in a 30' pit didn't have a line of sight to anyone since the closest party member was a solid 25-40' from the pit. Instead, it spent a round climbing out as a full action, then the following round sundered and broke the Clerics shield while it's Worg pet tripped and mauled the Sorcerer that cast the pit. The giant did go down a few rounds later, but not until cure XXX wounds where being spontaneously cast and the Ninja was in full retreat. The pit literally only affected the BBEG for 1 round.
Other instances of pit use in the adventure:
A group of 3 Ogre, pit trap on the boss (advanced) who failed his save and went in. A minor setback for the Ogres, but no where near as devastating as the Glitter spell that followed and blinded the remaining two Ogres. That fight was a push over but it was due to low resistance rolls more than anything else.
In the last fight of the adventure against two oncoming frost giants. Group set up a ruse with disguise + enlarge person to act as the BBEG previously mentioned and order the two giants front and center. Before hand the party cast a pit and put an illusion of ground over it - the lead giant failed and went in, the following giant went into a second pit cast directly on him. Party rolled a wagon into the first pit, which the giant sundered so he could climb out, but ended up creating a bunch of kindling which just made the fires worse when they were cast in the next round. The other giant probably was handled poorly, while in the pit he was surrounded by good guys with long spears who proceeded to attack repeatedly (an idea that came from Sterling if I recall correctly). Nobody knew how to handle bullrushing out of a pit, and it was the last mob and getting late, it turned into a pin cushion and died.
Over all, I don't know that the pit itself was an issue, it certainly did almost nothing to stop the BBEG. Glitter dust was more devastating on the Ogres, and the final fight was an afterthought from the get go.
Have a Frost Giant wizard use the same spell on the area right next to the pit and drop the players right next to him.
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Most of my issues with Create Pit and Spiked Trap have been addressed to a comfortable level, but I did see one thing I still am not 100% on. The Bullrushing or stepping out of the pit while the pit is surrounded with PCs/opponents.
1 giant in a 10x10x30 pit tries to get out. He has to go through at least 2 players. I assume there is some sort of combined CMD against the CMB of the giant, and the 5 foot area surrounding the area is still a precarious spot. So, what has to happen for the giant to get out of the pit and out of the precarious area too?
Climb check at a -5 penalty to get to the precarious spot, some sort of combined CMB/CMD check to get passed the 2 PCs, then a 2nd round to push away from the from the precarious spot?
You could use an Acrobatics check is to get past the PCs as part of the move action. The DC would be the PC's CMD +5 for moving through, +2 for 2 people.
An overrun would also work. Move action to get out of the pit and move through the PCs. Standard action to overrun the target. All in one round if you do it right.
I would run it like this: Giant climbs to just below the lip of the pit (keeping total cover). Next round Giant climbs the remaining 10 feet (using accelerated movement +5DC and the -10DC modifier for climbing a chimney and burning 20feet of movement), and then moves through the PCs (burning his remaining 20feet of movement).
A Large creature climbing out of Create Pit has a DC of 25-10(chimney) = 15. The Frost Giant only needs a 2 to climb up. 7 if using accelerated climbing.
Of course, this presumes I would try to go through the PCs. Remember that the Pit needs enough space to actually work.
- Gauss
People fall into wells all the time, and those are pre-existing (not suddenly appearing beneath you) and usually have signs and walls to prevent falling in. Having a 30' well suddenly open up underneath you is probably a more difficult situation to avoid than stepping over a 5' hole you are approaching as you walk/run.
That they do, but the spell is as much about battlefield control as it is about direct damage.
Most of my issues with Create Pit and Spiked Trap have been addressed to a comfortable level, but I did see one thing I still am not 100% on. The Bullrushing or stepping out of the pit while the pit is surrounded with PCs/opponents.
1 giant in a 10x10x30 pit tries to get out. He has to go through at least 2 players. I assume there is some sort of combined CMD against the CMB of the giant, and the 5 foot area surrounding the area is still a precarious spot. So, what has to happen for the giant to get out of the pit and out of the precarious area too?
Climb check at a -5 penalty to get to the precarious spot, some sort of combined CMB/CMD check to get passed the 2 PCs, then a 2nd round to push away from the from the precarious spot?
A 10 by 10 feet pit with a 'danger area' of 15 by 15 will in most cases not be covered to the extent where it matters.
- Just take the AoO if you move past
- Try grapple and throw them into the pit or drag them with you as you jump/fall back in
- Squeezing rules should apply if there is no 10 foot opening for the giant to move through, though still taking AoO
- Jump over them (move action) if you can and then bullrush.
- Fight while clinging to the wall with one hand (likely a slam) the giant has reach meaning the characters likely have to come in the danger area to attack, clinging does negate the giant's dex bonus (lol) and might have cover.
* Note that creatures in order to start climbing have to put away shield and/or weapon which likely keeps them from climbing out immediately.
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creatures with the ability to teleport/dimension door via either magic, potions/scrolls, or inherent abilities.
I have read somewhere else in these forums that teleport or dimension door wouldn't work from within a created pit, because the pit is an extradimensional space, and therefore prohibits the use of the spells.
Here's a simple thought: Feather fall, and then if the person falling is an arcane caster that can do this, cast Fly and problem solved.
Had that happen to me once before, so that's what I did to negate that.
that would still require a DC 20 fly check to fly straight up, you can put points in it if you have a reliable means to fly every day so as a wizard typically at lvl 5 or 6 at the earliest. A failed check would probably cause you to hit the wall, possibly for minor damage, by level 10 fly checks become trivial usually.
After casting you can fly up (arguably) at half speed so you would still be hanging over or in the pit if the caster is level 6 or higher.Being able to counter everything by having the proper spell handy is not really saying much, at lvl 6 or 7 having two spell slots used for featherfall and fly is a very significant use of resources though, so the pit might have done it's work regardless.
creatures with the ability to teleport/dimension door via either magic, potions/scrolls, or inherent abilities.I have read somewhere else in these forums that teleport or dimension door wouldn't work from within a created pit, because the pit is an extradimensional space, and therefore prohibits the use of the spells.
A matter of opinion, but extradimensional spaces do not automatically qualify as another plane of existence. Create demiplane has specific language on this and I would have thought if it was the case the create pit line would have that language as well since it seems appropriate to the spells purpose to trap creatures. Since it hasn't I conclude that either it is not so (my opinion) or that it was an unintended effect.
Basically I think that extradimensional magic manipulates the dimensions of the plane rather than create a new plane.
A friend just said that a frost giant might be able to jump over the pit, but I'm to fogged to check his normally suspect reasoning. Way too early after being called out to rescue stranded drunks at a fish camp.
This is why I arm my giants with spears, javelins and other big, throw-y things.
creatures with the ability to teleport/dimension door via either magic, potions/scrolls, or inherent abilities.I have read somewhere else in these forums that teleport or dimension door wouldn't work from within a created pit, because the pit is an extradimensional space, and therefore prohibits the use of the spells.Hmmm possibly in fact by RAW you may very well be correct although there is room to quibble about whether extra-dimensional and different plane are equivalent. But I think at least at my table both as a player and a DM I'd say that that would be true only in a sealed extradimensional space so a closed portable hole can't be TP'd into or out of but an open one can be.
I'd also run AoE spells the same way so if you have a guy lurking inside an extra dimensional space and a fireball goes off at the entrance it extends 20ft into the space but if the door/bag/whatever is closed it's sealed and no effects go between the two.
It's an extra-dimensional space to avoid the embarrassment of the DM later realising that the thirty foot deep pit was in a floor two feet thick before it became the ceiling of the level below.
People fall into wells all the time, and those are pre-existing (not suddenly appearing beneath you) and usually have signs and walls to prevent falling in. Having a 30' well suddenly open up underneath you is probably a more difficult situation to avoid than stepping over a 5' hole you are approaching as you walk/run.That they do, but the spell is as much about battlefield control as it is about direct damage.
I was going off the OP's ending statement of the giant being in the pit. But your post did make me think, and I believe the answer to his question is answered in the description of the spell.
You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material. You can create the pit in the deck of a ship as easily as in a dungeon floor or the ground of a forest. Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space. In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it. Creatures subjected to an effect intended to push them into the pit (such as bull rush) do not get a saving throw to avoid falling in if they are affected by the pushing effect.
That clearly states that the adjacent squares are considered part of the pit.
That being the case, and the fact that it describes the 10x10 area as "the hole" of the pit and not just simply "the pit," I believe the spell needs a 20x20 area to accept the pit casting. This means you can create choke points but never completely block a hallway or anything.
Examples:
- you need 20x20 to cast the pit, you cast it in a 20x20 hallway. You now have a 10x10 'hole' in the center, and a 5' path on each side that can be bypassed with no save needed unless they end their turn on it.
- You have a 40x40 area and cast two pits next to each other. You would have a 5' path along one wall, a 10' hole, then two 5' squares adjacent to each other for a 10' total width path, then another 10' hole, and finally a 5' path on the other wall.
At most, the pit will either trap a bad guy, or force a +2 reflex save for ending a turn on an adjacent square. Otherwise they can simply travel over the adjacent squares with no ill effect, bypassing the pit completely.
This makes sense as it solves the issue of planting one interdimensional space right next to another, and lowers the actual value of the spell to something more level equivalent. In our games we have been assuming you need a 10x10 area, but reading it I think that's incorrect.