As in grab and fly it's Summoner somewhere. The Summoner is also medium? Are there any relevant rules about this? Speed? Fly check? Etc.?
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Depends on your Eidolon's strength and the Summoner's weight.
A flying creature can carry no more than a light load:
Flying mounts can't fly in medium or heavy barding.
A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.
So if your Eidolon is strong enough and your summoner is light enough that your summoner is a light load for him, the eidolon should be able to carry him. Otherwise, no.
Since a light load doesn't encumber a creature, in theory your speed wouldn't be reduced and you wouldn't need a fly check (though maybe a roll to grab the summoner in the first place). However, it seems counter-intuitive that the flyer would go from no encumbrance to "cannot fly at all" at the dividing line between light and medium load, so your DM might impose some penalty.
It depends on whether or not the GM says it is a grapple. Creatures with the grapple creatures condition can only move 5 feet IIRC.
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My eidolon does this. Drags a knotted rope and disk around behind it. PCs grab the rope, stand on the disk, and fly away all the time.
Disk? If you are speaking of a floating disk it wouldn't work. Or it is some other form of disk?
I assume he means disc in the regular sense of the word. a flat object (probably wooden) at the end of the rope for the person to stand on so as to lessen the chance of falling off in mid flight.
-S
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Disk? If you are speaking of a floating disk it wouldn't work. Or it is some other form of disk?
I assume he means disc in the regular sense of the word. a flat object (probably wooden) at the end of the rope for the person to stand on so as to lessen the chance of falling off in mid flight.
-S
Quite right.
I also don't believe that the correlation between barding and encumbrance was an intentional one and shouldn't apply (at least not in my games).
Paizo has used medium creatures to carry medium creatures.
The half-fiend gargoyle carries the half-elven cleric/rogue to set up the ambush and withdraw. The gargoyle has a strength of 20, 133 lbs light load, with the cleric and gear averaging at 138 lbs - if the cleric is even slightly on the small side, falling below 133 lbs.
Depends on your Eidolon's strength and the Summoner's weight.
A flying creature can carry no more than a light load:
Flying mounts can't fly in medium or heavy barding.A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.So if your Eidolon is strong enough and your summoner is light enough that your summoner is a light load for him, the eidolon should be able to carry him. Otherwise, no.
Since a light load doesn't encumber a creature, in theory your speed wouldn't be reduced and you wouldn't need a fly check (though maybe a roll to grab the summoner in the first place). However, it seems counter-intuitive that the flyer would go from no encumbrance to "cannot fly at all" at the dividing line between light and medium load, so your DM might impose some penalty.
This argument has been presented before. Like others, you are reading something into the rules that does not exist.
1) Armor is a category which barding is a subset of. Not the other way around.
2) Flying mounts are a subset of flying creatures. Not the other way around. There is no restriction against a flying creature wearing heavy armor and flying around.
3) There is NO rule that states a flying creature cannot fly if carrying a medium or heavy load. Yes, a medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor. Note: See point 1. IE: Medium/Heavy Armor does not count as Medium/Heavy Barding.
Thus:
A Mount can have medium/heavy load since that equals armor and does not equal barding.
Also: A Flying creature can wear medium/heavy armor or carry a medium/heavy load and still fly since neither is medium/heavy barding.
Back in 3.5 there were two statements that no longer exist that made the statement you are making:
First: Flying mounts were limited to a light load in order to fly. (DMG p204-205)
Second: Fliers are limited to a light load (MM1 p312). Note: this section also states that medium armor does not constitute a medium load.
Pathfinder does not have either of these statements. Either they removed them on purpose or they failed to include them. In either case the rules that operate the way you desire do not exist in PF.
Summary:
3.5 prevented fliers from flying with a medium/heavy load or in medium/heavy barding (but not medium/heavy armor).
PF only prevents fliers from flying with medium/heavy barding.
- Gauss
Some extra reading regarding this topic:
Thread
- Gauss
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Theconiel - We're not discussing an eidolon wearing barding, we're discussing whether carrying a medium or heavy load (the summoner) encumbers a flying creature in the same way that medium or heavy barding does.
Thus:
A Mount can have medium/heavy load since that equals armor and does not equal barding.Also: A Flying creature can wear medium/heavy armor or carry a medium/heavy load and still fly since neither is medium/heavy barding.
Back in 3.5 there were two statements that no longer exist that made the statement you are making...
I see your argument and you are correct by RAW: a medium/heavy load encumbers as medium/heavy armor, but not specifically as medium/heavy barding, and since only barding specifically is described as preventing flight, a medium/heavy load does not explicitly prevent flight.
However, as mentioned on the other thread it is very reasonable to interpret that armor in general has the same encumbering effect as barding does. There is no reason that a human with wings would be less encumbered by breastplate "armor" than a horse with wings by breastplate "barding".
In any case, the rule set relevant to the OP's question is encumbrance and carrying capacity rather than just size. I would recommend that the OP ask his DM whether he can use Gauss' more liberal literal interpretation, in which case the eidolon can carry the summoner as long as the latter is no more than a heavy load (or double, if he "staggers"). If the DM uses the more restrictive interpretation, the summoner needs to be a light load.
Most medium Eidolons don't have that great of a strength score or carry capacity. Lugging along a Human (AND THE GEAR THAT IT IS WEARING) isn't going to leave it at light encumbrance, it probably won't even be medium
A light load is possible with a bit of help. Muleback Cords can increase the maximum load for the eidolon. Wearing those, even the weakest flying eidolon (Serpentine, Str 14 when it gets fly at level 5) can carry 173 lbs as a light load (520 as a heavy). That's probably not enough to lift the beefy fighter, but if our summoner is wearing a chain shirt and carrying a Bag of Holding I with no more than 10lbs of incidentals outside the bag, he/she could weigh up to 123 lbs. That's within the normal range of human, elven, and half-elven women, or a very skinny half-elf man. With the Cords, a bipedal eidolon can carry 306 lbs as a light load and a quadruped can carry 349 lbs.
If you only need to qualify as a heavy load, you can achieve similar maximum weights without using the Cords.
If it has the strength I don't see why not. Of course it wouldn't be riding it would be carrying. So nothing fancy, but it would work.
Barding is irrelevant to this discussion - eidolons cannot wear armor.
TO OP: I thought it was how Weirdo portrayed it. But maybe my summoner knowledge is muffed up. Theconiel's reply has me confuzzled.
Greg
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Replace the Summoner, with a rock of equal weight.
Imagine how this works within the rules.
Now, replace the rock with the Summoner.
Use the same rules, in regards to the Eidolon.
Now, for the Summoner himself, he is not riding the Eidolon, and would not be treated as such. He is, however, in a position that lacks mobility, and should be treated as either grappled, climbing, or entangled. Which ever is most appropriate to how he is holding on/being held.
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This just works out to way too much free movement. When its better (for your action economy) for the horse to pick you up, carry you around like a rock, and drop you every round then it is to be mounted on it (baring using a lance) there's a problem with the system.
The difference here is that a horse can't just pick you up. An eidolon with arms and a means of flying can. (By the same token, an eidolon with no arms could not pick you up, and couldn't fly you unless it had the Mount evolution and you specifically climbed onto it.)
Why in the world would anyone treat this as a Grapple?
It's uncontested. Hell, the Summoner's actively helping, making it as easy as possible to be picked up.
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I agree that the eidolon should not need to make a grapple check to pick up the summoner because the summoner isn't resisting. However, the summoner likely has their motion restricted because the eidolon is holding them. Even if the eidolon isn't putting the summoner into a headlock, the summoner is being grabbed around the waist, shoulders, etc, and is dangling in the air. This position makes it difficult to dodge things. It would not be unreasonable to apply some sort of penalty to reflect this.
I don't see why you couldn't treat the summoner as mounted for purposes of action economy, even if he technically isn't riding it. He might not get the benefit of any mounted combat feats he has, though.
As was pointed out, the Scarlet Sun module had a gargoyle flying away with the cleric in hand...it specifically stated "since this is a medium load, his speed is reduced to ..."...and since this was a flagship module for the Free RPG day, and is included for PFS play, it stands to reason that this component of flight is possible in medium or heavy encomburence is a valid and appropriate part of the rules. If you wish to gainsay that logic based off what ever nonsense you wish to dredge out, then perhaps a request for clarification from Paizo is in order...
Haven't played this module, but if this is accurate, it confirms Gauss' argument that the official PF rules do not consider carried loads to encumber a flyer in the same way that barding does. That still does not prevent the DM from house-ruling that the 3.5 restrictions are in play. Deciding that it's harder to fly with a heavy load than to walk with one isn't nonsense, it's physics, even if the game mechanics are otherwise. Yes, it's a fantasy game, but good fantasy still relies on certain real-world rules applying.
Greg Wasson:
An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon.
Found on the Eidolon page, under the "Armor Bonus" description.
Weirdo, you are exactly right. As long as the summoner is conscious, this should be handled by the Ride rules.
If you are worried about it from a standpoint of "too much movement for the summoner" just toss some skill checks in there.
Sure, the summoner can be grabbed but.. do you care about where he's grabbed?
is he grabbing a rope dangling by the eidolon's saddle or is the eidolon grabbing him about the waist so he can still cast?
What about that dismount? the summoner isn't getting off he's being dropped or- hopefully, gently set down.. Does the Eidolon have Hover?
Now personally I don't think this is a biggie- yuo are talking about taking actions to grab something and actions to move and actions to set it down and thats really eiting up Eidolon's actions meaning that your summoner is using the least powerful of its abilities- himself- to do stuff.
Thats a fair trade.
So rules wise?
Move action to pick something up- assuming you start off close enough to grab it, move action to.. well.. move somewhere else.. free action to drop it- but then summoner is looking at an acrobatics check to not face plant the dismount.
What I wouldn't allow is the summoner to somehow use an action to "get carried" allowing the Eidolon to move its full move and then drop him.
(like summoner using a move action, eidolon double moves and drops, summoner lands and casts a spell, takes a move or standard or whatever).
-S
Harpy is represented often as a creature of the same size as humans, they are also often represented to grab up humans to eat/kill them in various ways later (or just to drop them off)
If we consider this a precedence, then I would say yes, a flying medium creature can carry an other one
also, a winged human (be it due to magic or some racial stuff) I can see easily to fly together with an additional person, but I don't think it would as per RL plausibility work for longer than a hour, especially if the carried person wears full plate
Replace the Summoner, with a rock of equal weight.
Imagine how this works within the rules.
Now, replace the rock with the Summoner.
Use the same rules, in regards to the Eidolon.This just works out to way too much free movement. When its better (for your action economy) for the horse to pick you up, carry you around like a rock, and drop you every round then it is to be mounted on it (baring using a lance) there's a problem with the system.
OR, you are not a heavy plated west european knight, but one of dozen+ cultures like Mongolian, Scythian, Arabian, Hungarian, etc.
Traditional Hungarian riders as example used to be known for 3 maneuvers:
1. simple luring tactic: suddenly the riders turn around as if they would flee, enemy rides after them, meanwhile the riding archers shoot backwards easily at the enemy coming after them (worked great against European knights who always believed the riders got scared and for glory they wanted to get after them)
2. move on the horse in a way that the horse itself gives additional cover to the rider, usually halfway hanging down the other side of the horse (not as much helping against melee but protects great against ranged attacks plus the rider meanwhile is still able to use his bow)
3. use the horse for quick "Blitz" tactics: they get up the horse ride quickly some distance, jump off the horse there and kill an enemy in melee, then get up the horse swiftly again and move to an other location to get into a melee without being on top the horse again (basically a skirmish tactic)
Number 3 is basically all about benefiting from the mobility a horse granted over the typical footsoldiers. I would say the same would work for a flying mount too, but something like "Quick Draw" would be required to get quickly in and out of saddle (not having a large knowledge about mounted Feats, there may already be such a feat, if not then there should be)