| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The party are screwed.
Three of them are paralyzed, the Oracle is one of them. He's desperately trying to plead that using his channel energy is supernatural and as such does not need any somatic actions and can be invoked even though he is unable to move.
I think not. I'm a tough DM and believe he has to be able to move to Channel energy.
Instant straw poll?
Thanks in advance.
I didn't think Supernatural abilities required components (like somatic).
I say he can do it. :)
The party are screwed.
Three of them are paralyzed, the Oracle is one of them. He's desperately trying to plead that using his channel energy is supernatural and as such does not need any somatic actions and can be invoked even though he is unable to move.
I think not. I'm a tough DM and believe he has to be able to move to Channel energy.
Instant straw poll?
Thanks in advance.
Can he do it paralyzed??
Why couldnt' he, if there's no somatic components?
'An oracle with the life mystery can choose from any of the following revelations.
Channel (Su): You can channel positive energy like a cleric, using your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the amount of damage healed (or caused to undead) and the DC. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.'
And the only requirement for a cleric is that the cleric presents his or her holy symbol.
Oracles don't need a divine focus for spells that mention one, I would assume (and considering they don't need a deity) they wouldn't need one for channeling energy.
Any other opinions?
He's desperately trying to plead that using his channel energy is supernatural and as such does not need any somatic actions and can be invoked even though he is unable to move.
Question 1: "Do Supernatural Abilities have somatic components?"
Some Spells have V/S/M/DF components, but spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities do not.
Question 2: "Can a cleric Channel Energy while paralyzed?"
Channel Energy (Su): "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability."
Question 3: "Does an oracle of Life need to present a holy symbol to use the Channel revelation?"
I don't know. Oracles often don't have deities, so I'm not sure what you would be presenting.
Do you have any rules supporting the Channel Energy ability of a Life Oracle requires more than a mental action? It does not provoke an AoO (as standard for Supernatural abilities), so what exactly is paralzed that prevents the ability? A cleric has to present a holy symbol, which would be problematic with paralysis. The oracle has no such restriction (and note that "Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components.")
(Su) aren't actually purely mental actions by definition, unless I'm missing some of the rules. (Sp) are, but I don't think (Su) are.
Doesn't mean that the Oracle's channel isn't purely mental, as there's no text to imply it requires movement on their part.
He is an Oracle of Life. I have opted not to allow him to do it since it's not a purely mental action and needs his full physical being tuned into his psyche to channel the energy... without a holy symbol.
They are in STAP facing three mummies with coldfire wrappings (my take on the Dark Way section under the mountain).
I'll let you know if they survive.
Hmm, the question of whether a Oracle needs a holy symbol to channel, is an important one.
Anyone know?
Oracles don't have patron deities, so it wouldn't make any sense to require them to present the holy symbol of their patron deity.
A more interesting question is for clerics of philosophies.
Oracles don't use holy symbols, and the RAW says clerics need holy symbols to channel. They don't see Channel itself requires a holy symbol.
Grick handled 1 and 2. :)
Do you have any rules supporting the Channel Energy ability of a Life Oracle requires more than a mental action?
Maybe. It's shaky:
1. "You can channel positive energy like a cleric" so for anything not specified by the revelation, you use the cleric rules.
2. "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability" since the revelation doesn't specify that this doesn't apply, then it does apply.
3. "Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components" channeling is not a spell, so this doesn't apply.
4. "must be able to present" does not mean "must present" - as long as you are able to present the symbol, you don't actually have to do so. So normally, if you would be able to present a holy symbol, then you can channel, even if you don't actually present anything. Since you're paralyzed, you're unable to present a holy symbol, so you can't channel.
Number four sucks for non-traditional holy symbols. Even if the symbol is on your shield, and your armor, and your birthmark, you still must be able to present it, so even if it's already presented, being unable to do so means you can't channel.
I really wish they had left the words "be able to" out of it.
Hmm, the question of whether a Oracle needs a holy symbol to channel, is an important one.
Anyone know?
Its a good question and I am going to hit the FAQ button, but considering the theme of the rest of the class I am going to guess the answer is supposed to be no.
Do you have any rules supporting the Channel Energy ability of a Life Oracle requires more than a mental action?Maybe. It's shaky:
1. "You can channel positive energy like a cleric" so for anything not specified by the revelation, you use the cleric rules.
2. "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability" since the revelation doesn't specify that this doesn't apply, then it does apply.
3. "Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components" channeling is not a spell, so this doesn't apply.
4. "must be able to present" does not mean "must present" - as long as you are able to present the symbol, you don't actually have to do so. So normally, if you would be able to present a holy symbol, then you can channel, even if you don't actually present anything. Since you're paralyzed, you're unable to present a holy symbol, so you can't channel.
Number four sucks for non-traditional holy symbols. Even if the symbol is on your shield, and your armor, and your birthmark, you still must be able to present it, so even if it's already presented, being unable to do so means you can't channel.
I really wish they had left the words "be able to" out of it.
Grick, I agree with your interpretation of the RAW. Do you believe -- with the Oracle's lack of need of a DF to cast spells in mind -- that the dev's intended for Oracles to need DF's to Channel Energy?
Do you believe -- with the Oracle's lack of need of a DF to cast spells in mind -- that the dev's intended for Oracles to need DF's to Channel Energy?
I have no idea.
Personally, I think a cleric should just need to have the symbol showing, not take any physical action. If it's on your shield, and your shield is on your arm, and you're paralyzed, you should be able to channel, even if you can't move to present anything. I think if you're able to present it, but you choose not to, you shouldn't be able to channel.
Given that, since most Oracles don't get powers from a specific deity, it doesn't make sense for them to have to show anything to make it happen.
If non-clerics needed to present their patron deity's holy symbol to use channel energy, it would cause a lot of problems. For one, Necromancers, paladins, Life & Bones mystery oracles, many of the druid domains, ... all can't use channel energy.
I am extremely confident that all of those, and any* other class that gets channel energy that does not have a patron deity, are not intended to require a holy symbol.
* The only exception I can see is if an Inquisitor was channeling energy from something he got through his devotion to his deity.
4. "must be able to present" does not mean "must present" - as long as you are able to present the symbol, you don't actually have to do so. So normally, if you would be able to present a holy symbol, then you can channel, even if you don't actually present anything. Since you're paralyzed, you're unable to present a holy symbol, so you can't channel.Number four sucks for non-traditional holy symbols. Even if the symbol is on your shield, and your armor, and your birthmark, you still must be able to present it, so even if it's already presented, being unable to do so means you can't channel.
I really wish they had left the words "be able to" out of it.
I'm not going to touch that one yet, but would like to point out the following.
Adventurer's Armory has this to say when talking about the channel foci item type:
The cleric can use the focus as a holy symbol (whether activated or not), though if it is a worn item rather than a held item she must touch the item with a free hand.
So I guess they really meant "must present", as non-held items used as holy symbols must still be touched (requiring somatic movement).
Maybe.
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Do you have any rules supporting the Channel Energy ability of a Life Oracle requires more than a mental action?Maybe. It's shaky:
1. "You can channel positive energy like a cleric" so for anything not specified by the revelation, you use the cleric rules.
2. "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability" since the revelation doesn't specify that this doesn't apply, then it does apply.
3. "Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components" channeling is not a spell, so this doesn't apply.
4. "must be able to present" does not mean "must present" - as long as you are able to present the symbol, you don't actually have to do so. So normally, if you would be able to present a holy symbol, then you can channel, even if you don't actually present anything. Since you're paralyzed, you're unable to present a holy symbol, so you can't channel.
Number four sucks for non-traditional holy symbols. Even if the symbol is on your shield, and your armor, and your birthmark, you still must be able to present it, so even if it's already presented, being unable to do so means you can't channel.
I really wish they had left the words "be able to" out of it.
I agree with you.
N. 4.: the channelling text should be "you must present".As a oracle don't need to have a patron deity I have ruled, in my game, that it is sufficient to raise your hand and use it to channel your power. Or you can raise your weapon, or shield. Essentially the oracle need to do some kind of dramatic gesture to show and channel his power, like the cleric must show his deity holy symbol to channel his power.
The gesture can be completely RP related but a paralysed, unconscious, bound, ecc. ecc. oracle can't use channel in a situation in which a cleric couldn't use it.
If non-clerics needed to present their patron deity's holy symbol to use channel energy, it would cause a lot of problems.
Good thing it doesn't say anything about a patron deity.
For one, Necromancers, paladins, Life & Bones mystery oracles, many of the druid domains, ... all can't use channel energy.
Sure they can. They just need to buy a holy (or unholy) symbol, and be able to present it. It doesn't have to be tied to the source of their power or anything else (other than the type of energy they channel).
The holy symbol doesn't even need to be tied to a deity. Each religion has its own holy symbol, but that doesn't mean each holy symbol is linked to a religion. You could just have a sunburst, or a seed, or whatever it is you use to focus positive energy.
Are you really saying that a cleric doesn't need to use the holy symbol of their deity to channel energy?
There is no generic holy symbol. Who would it be holy to? They're each tied to a specific religion, in the same way that each masterwork tool is tied to a specific skill. There's no "Masterwork Tool" that's generic for all skills.
Are you really saying that a cleric doesn't need to use the holy symbol of their deity to channel energy?
The rules are saying that. Also:
"While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)"
There is no generic holy symbol. Who would it be holy to?
The cleric.
They're each tied to a specific religion, in the same way that each masterwork tool is tied to a specific skill.
Addressed above: Each religion has its own holy symbol, but that doesn't mean each holy symbol is linked to a religion. You could just have a sunburst, or a seed, or whatever it is you use to focus positive energy.
An agnostic neutral cleric of battle who channels positive energy could use a holy symbol of Desna, or Abadar, or just one that has some significance to his cause. A carving representing battle or something.
Sigh.
Are you really saying that a cleric doesn't need to use the holy symbol of their deity to channel energy?The rules are saying that. Also:
"While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)"
There is no generic holy symbol. Who would it be holy to?The cleric.
They're each tied to a specific religion, in the same way that each masterwork tool is tied to a specific skill.Addressed above: Each religion has its own holy symbol, but that doesn't mean each holy symbol is linked to a religion. You could just have a sunburst, or a seed, or whatever it is you use to focus positive energy.
An agnostic neutral cleric of battle who channels positive energy could use a holy symbol of Desna, or Abadar, or just one that has some significance to his cause. A carving representing battle or something.
That is actually true, there is also that not all religions are devoted to a single god or any god at all. It would not be strange for an oracle to have a symbol of power that has significance to her an ideal/religion a deity, or another powerful creature.
Birthmark
You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life.
Benefit: This birthmark can serve you as a divine focus for casting spells, and you gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects.
How would you even present this if you had to? This is of course assuming it is on an area of the body that is not exposed.
Birthmark
You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life.
Benefit: This birthmark can serve you as a divine focus for casting spells, and you gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects.
How would you even present this if you had to? This is of course assuming it is on an area of the body that is not exposed.
Considering most characters I have given this trait to had it right smack dab on their forehead, I don't know how they would 'present' it other than maybe sticking their head forward a bit or something... It seems to me it would be fine to do while paralyzed
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"can serve you as a divine focus for casting spells,"
Nowhere it say that it can substitute for anything beside a divine focus for casting spells.
The holy symbol used while channelling isn't used as a divine focus and you arem't casting spells while channelling.
If it was a sorcerer with eschew materials, you would allow him to create alchemical fire from nothing because "he don't need spell components"?
I have opted not to allow him to do it since it's not a purely mental action and needs his full physical being tuned into his psyche to channel the energy... without a holy symbol.
Mmmm. Really good debate in this thread, but this line... I dunno. Here's what I read:
"I have opted not to allow him to do it since <some made-up-stuff>."
It's your game (to run). But for the record this is the sort of thing why I play Pathfinder; I'm not (generally) at the mercy of a DM deciding if he or she WANTS me to be able to do something. I like a DM to be a storyteller and make a world for me, but when the rules and my abilities are defined by the storyteller, ESPECIALLY when it's live or die, there's something wrong.
In my humble opinion a DM should be trying to find ways to ENABLE their players. Not coddle them... I'm not saying that. But when a player asks to do X and the DM can't come up with a rule that says "no", the action should be allowed. Again, I'm not talking about ludicrous things like "I pick up the world and eat it, because you can't find a rule that says I can't."
While it looks like probably the oracle needs to present his holy symbol, that's not the justification you used. Again IMHO only, not cool. I share this viewpoint in the odd event your players are disgruntled, miffed, unimpressed, argumentative, or perhaps refusing to come over and play any more. Maybe you'll understand why.