We really like the idea of a Cleric praying for the divine favor or intervention he needs rather than trying to prepare spells ahead of time. We also like the idea of those prayers being answered as needed rather than necessarily obeying the rather rigid restrictions of an arcane spell which requires exact phrasing, components, gestures, etc.
So, what we're planning to do is to make Clerics spontaneous casters and to give them access to every Cleric spell when casting (except for obvious exceptions brought on by alignment or domain conflicts), and we are also going to give them access to all standard metamagic feats (though they will still have to cast the spell as a higher level spell obviously).
To compensate, we plan on removing the additional domain spell Clerics receive as well as the Channel Energy class feature which always seemed a bit of a forced leftover to me (very few deities actually have interest in the undead one way or another, or in healing for that matter). Obviously as spontaneous casters, they no longer gain the benefit of
We're also considering imposing a -1 caster level penalty when casting beneficial spells on people who do not share your faith and a +1 caster level bonus when casting those spells on people who do.
Thoughts?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Clerics are an extremely powerful class as-is, and the things you removed (one domain and a class ability that you admit receives minimal attention) are rather incidental to reducing that power. To give them their entire spell list castable spontaneously, I think that rocks them through the stratosphere to the point where they're outdoing Wizards, by miles.
Throwing on free metamagic feats is just gravy, but it's immensely powerful gravy, and it kind of nukes the "we took away this stuff to compensate" excuse.
"No longer gain the benefit of" what? You didn't seem to finish that sentence >_>
The faith-based penalty is pretty minimal, really. For healing spells it'll just end up a flat -1 to the damage healed, rather minor under most circumstances, and for most buffs all it'll do is shave a round/minute/hour off the duration, which will either be very frustrating and annoying at low levels but easily overcome by the free Extend Spell you gave them and then irrelevant at mid/high levels.
From your wording and intended flavor, I'm guessing the intended balance factor is "there's always a chance your god will say no when you cast a spell, either via DM Fiat or percentile dice roll", but it's never mentioned if that's the case. If so, I can't see that not becoming extremely frustrating, especially if spell slots responded to with the deity saying "no, not feeling like helping right now" are wasted; alternatively, if they aren't wasted, why bother with the failure chance in the first place, other than to have the cleric spam round after round of attempting the same spell until "your god gives in and says FINE you can have your spell"?
At the very least it needs something - either the Oracle's limited spell list, or a failure chance on spells - to balance the benefits.
Seems overly powerful. If you really wanted to make this work you'd gave to implement some kind of system of checks to see if the request of divine intervention is answered or not, and that's a whole other head ache.
I wouldn't remove channel energy. You'd make a lot of feats pretty useless. For example I have an archer cleric that has the feat Guided Hand. This feat requires Channelled Smite which in turn requires Channel Energy. With this change, my archer cleric is now less good at archery than I'd like.
One of the bigger problems you might face with this is the time it takes the Cleric players to decide on their actions. Having access to all cleric spells from all books means they have a ton of choices. It can really drag out if the players are flipping through every book each round in order to pick just the right spell for the situation.
Something to consider.
I agree with Orthos that this would make clerics MUCH too powerful. There needs to be a real, substantial penalty to balance out the versatility of being able to essentially spontaneously cast ANY spell on the spell list (a versatility that is afforded to NONE of the other classes, and tramples all over the oracle's spellcasting system). And on top of that, you are essentially giving them several metamagic feats for free.
I can see where you are going with this from a flavour perspective, but there needs to be something to balance it out. Perhaps remove the cleric domains and channel energy, and in exchange the cleric gets the ability to swap any prepared spell for another spell on the cleric's spell list at least 1 level lower than the original spell by praying fervently for 1 round per 3 spell levels. The cleric can reduce the number of rounds of prayer required by one for every additional spell level that the new spell is lower than the original spell.
So you can change an 8th level spell into any 7 level spell by praying for 3 rounds, or any 6th level spell by praying for 2 rounds, or any 5th level spell by praying for 1 round, or any 4th level spell instantly.
It is still a high level of versatility, but it would be reduced by the substantial reduction in the power you get out of your spell slot.
and we are also going to give them access to all standard metamagic feats (though they will still have to cast the spell as a higher level spell obviously).
Why this? It seems like a pretty random addition. Not sure how it ties into the theme that you want.
Honestly, it sounds like you're trying to make clerics their gods' agents on earth rather than followers of said gods whose faith powers their abilities. That sort of power being granted to a PC seems more in line with a higher level PC that has already demonstrated his or her faith to a god, which will then make make the god want to grant that amount of power.
I find leaving them as-is but adding the ability to spont-cast their Domain-granted spells alongside Healing or Inflict spells gives some of the flavor you want: spells that any Cleric can use you have to cast as per normal, but those specifically granted you because of the tenets of your deity's worship you espouse you can call on pretty much at-will, so long as you have sufficient power allotted to you remaining. Still gives them some of the desired versatility, doesn't break things too much, sticks to the theme of "I can channel my deity's will with but a prayer", and gets some more screentime to Domain spells, which as written are disappointingly limited in use. This is a house rule I've used frequently, advanced up from simply allowing people to memorize Domain spells as per normal spells (essentially the Domain just added it to your list, rather than giving you a single bonus spell per day).
Some great responses, some mirroring my own concerns and some bringing up a couple I had not thought of. The truth is that no one in our group plays Clerics for a variety of reasons, and I'm trying to 'fix' them for our campaign so they're not default healbots.
It might take a little work, but perhaps a set limited spell list for each domain and then having those as the options from which you can spontaneously cast.
How about this:
Keep Domain powers.
Lose bonus domain spells per day.
Access to new domain spell lists but only them, and gain the ability to cast them spontaneously (meaning the possibility of more than a few clerics without healing at all).
Access to standard metamagic feats at usual spell slot cost (again, only with those spells on their domain lisst).
Lose the ability to channel.
Make the Fortitude save weak rather than strong.
Another thought is to create an all new class, dub them 'Priests' and give them the expanded spell abilities as originally mentioned but also taking away their higher BAB progression, reducing their armor/weapon proficiencies and weakening their strong Fort save.
I find leaving them as-is but adding the ability to spont-cast their Domain-granted spells alongside Healing or Inflict spells gives some of the flavor you want: spells that any Cleric can use you have to cast as per normal, but those specifically granted you because of the tenets of your deity's worship you espouse you can call on pretty much at-will, so long as you have sufficient power allotted to you remaining. Still gives them some of the desired versatility, doesn't break things too much, sticks to the theme of "I can channel my deity's will with but a prayer", and gets some more screentime to Domain spells, which as written are disappointingly limited in use. This is a house rule I've used frequently, advanced up from simply allowing people to memorize Domain spells as per normal spells (essentially the Domain just added it to your list, rather than giving you a single bonus spell per day).
I think this is a very good option to consider, simple as it is. I'd probably still drop Channel Energy to compensate. I just don't like the ability, flavor-wise.
All cleric spell is way to strong... Something form a stripped down list seems more fair as in the healer. I would say no doamains or channel but, smaller stripped down list+ all spell form all of there domain list and a slower caster rate ie orcle in time per day but no need for know spells.
Some thing like this beed proven to work with the Warmage, Healer, Begulier, or Dread Necromancer in 3.5.
All cleric spell way to strong... Some form a stripped down list seems more fair as in the healer. I would say no doamains or channel but, small stripped down list+ all spell form all of there domain list and a slower caster rate ie orcle in time per day but no need for know spells.
Some thing like this beed proven to work with the Warmage, Healer, Begulier, or Dread Necromancer in 3.5.
@_@
For the love of Pete, please spell- and grammar-check your posts. This is indecipherable.
Or and No free Meta magic feats and free casting of there spell that way to strong as well, Sunden sure, or ability to do in a number time per day 1+CHA mod sure. But all day all time way to strong. And free meta magic feat at 1,5,10,15,20.
All cleric spell way to strong... Some form a stripped down list seems more fair as in the healer. I would say no doamains or channel but, small stripped down list+ all spell form all of there domain list and a slower caster rate ie orcle in time per day but no need for know spells.
Some thing like this beed proven to work with the Warmage, Healer, Begulier, or Dread Necromancer in 3.5.
@_@
For the love of Pete, please spell- and grammar-check your posts. This is indecipherable.
Assume you Tom Pete loves. =D
(No offense to any "Pete"s out there.)
Some great responses, some mirroring my own concerns and some bringing up a couple I had not thought of. The truth is that no one in our group plays Clerics for a variety of reasons, and I'm trying to 'fix' them for our campaign so they're not default healbots.
Whoa whoa whoa! If all you're trying to do is get your players to consider playing clerics, try this:
"New houserule: Clerics can now only heal themselves, other members of their church, or the poor and/or defenseless."
This will give the players a great excuse to not feel beholden to the other PC's hit points. They'll use their spells and actions for offensive and creative purposes, and the players will see how versatile the cleric is. Then, if the cleric makes it to higher levels, do away with that restriction.
The cleric is fine. It's the whole "clerics must be healbots" mentality that needs 'fixing.'
Presumably you could make themed spelllists for each domain, and give the cleric full spontaneous casting within these restricted lists. It would be quite a lot of work, though, but it would be much more balanced than your initial suggestion (which I agree is blatantly overpowered).
A simpler, quick-and-dirty strategy would be to add spontaneous domain casting instead of spontaneous cure spells. Now your cleric is already much more focused on his deity's domain than on the healbot role, and he can rely much more on his domain spell list. A fire cleric can be an actual blaster, for instance.
This is probably a more powerful ability than spontaneous curing, though, so you might have to drop something for it. Channel Energy, maybe?
This is kind of what I'm thinking - do away with the bonus domain spells and channel energy as well but allow them to cast their domain spells spontaneously. That's the quick-fix way to go in my opinion.
Still REALLY like the idea of giving them the ability to use metamagic feats though. Spells would still take a full action to cast and would still eat up higher level slots. Divine spells are not rotes carefully constructed to exacting detail over centuries of arcane experimentation... they're miracles, acts of divine intervention on behalf of the faithful, and I'd hate to think they'd fail to be as effective as they needed to be because they came up 10' or a round short. I'll have to think on this some more. FWIW, we've already determined that divine wands and scrolls can only be used by a member of the same faith as its creator and that UMD does not apply to them. Divine intervention simply isn't a thing to be bottled up and sold at Ye Olde Magic Mart, but petitioning your church for such a boon might be possible, especially with an appropriate level 'donation'.
Again, really appreciate all the responses - even the unintelligible ones ;-P
I always prefered the spontaneous divine caster from UNEARTHED ARCANA (not Arcana Unearthed from Monte Cook).
Basics:
- Clerics and Druids cast all known spells spontaneously (metamagic increases casting time as always)
- Clerics (and domain druids) lose the domain spell.
- Clerics and druids gain one spell slot per spell level (including 0)
- Clerics and druids start with 4x known orisons and 2x 1st level spells and get 2 spells of any spell level per level. (There was a full table but I remember that it boiled down to this, roundabout)
- Clerics gain either cure or inflict spells in addition, druids gain all summon nature's ally spells. Both get their domain spells (if any) for free, too.
And that's about it.
This way, the spells a cleric or druid can cast are much more limited and should be chosen to fit the deity's concept. BUT it definitly changes the way the class is played and probably also it's overall capabilities.
But reading how powerful clerics are, this might be a good thing.
I also agree that "Channel Energy" doesn't really makes sense as a fixed class ability anymore.
The days of the "cleric of light" are long gone (since AD&D2E Complete Priest/Cleric, I'd say), sadly, the alternate channeling options are all pretty lame IIRC.
I feel like, to get the fun and flavor of an idea, you only need a few of these a day.
My suggestion is to trade your Domain slots for these "spontaneous" slots, so you get one of these per level.
I would strip this alternate cleric of his channeling abilities, spontaneous cure spells, and Domain powers.
Instead, he gets one spell per level per day that is spontaneous and can be modified by any of the "standard" metamagic feats. He also gets to choose a single Domain of his diety which he adds to the list of spells that he can choose to cast spontaneously (he gains no other benefit from his Domain choice).
His normal spell slots work normally.
It seems grossly overpowered but could be a ton of fun. I say go for it and see how it impacts the game.
We had a game a few years back (pre-Pathfinder) where we did this. The party consisted of two clerics and a ranger around 13th level....yeah....it was fun for a couple sessions. Then we came to our senses.
I wholeheartedly support your intention. I too, think that clerics "spell casting" mechanics as is, leave much to be desired for verisimilitude. But, this is too much, I promise.
How bout having a limited number of "prepared" spells that you can cast spontaneously (plus cure spells and domain spells), then let the cleric access any spell he can cast as a ritual that takes at least 10 minutes (more for some spells). That will take the combat domination out of it, but still allow them to beseech there God for aid.
Pray at the holy time after rest, get what you want for that day. How is this hard or verisimilitude shattering?
Spontaneous? No, they are not sorcerers, ridiculous and OP.
Also come across the idea from a player before that a cleric should be able to call out to divine help and get it on the fly, like the god is the servant of the cleric and not the other way round. Another dm and I were put in stitches.
As in, I am in trouble and might die, the god should send someone to help me without need of casting, because I, mr powerful cleric asked in a time of need.
|
We had a game a few years back (pre-Pathfinder) where we did this. The party consisted of two clerics and a ranger around 13th level....yeah....it was fun for a couple sessions. Then we came to our senses.
I wholeheartedly support your intention. I too, think that clerics "spell casting" mechanics as is, leave much to be desired for verisimilitude. But, this is too much, I promise.
How bout having a limited number of "prepared" spells that you can cast spontaneously (plus cure spells and domain spells), then let the cleric access any spell he can cast as a ritual that takes at least 10 minutes (more for some spells). That will take the combat domination out of it, but still allow them to beseech there God for aid.
That's a pretty good idea.
Or how about allowing the cleric leave a few slots open and then pray for a specific spell to fill it later in the day? The prayer ritual should take at least ten minutes so that it wouldn't impact on combat, but if the party suddenly finds itself in need of a Remove Curse that no one prepared for that day, it could come in handy.
I like this idea.
But, I think your estimation of the value of spontaneous casting is way off.
I might consider a big action cost tax on prayer, maybe up to a minute-long casting time. Then let the cleric reduce the casting time for spells that are in the deities domains, and other spells that just "feel right".
Making the entire cleric list spontaneous without otherwise limiting it seems like a huge mistake, even if you drop domains and channeling (and BAB and proficiencies... and I'm gonna go ahead and say the two skill points too...)
Hm. Interesting thread. I'm on record as saying the Cleric should be spontaneous. However, I do feel the OP's version was a bit too much.
My idea, as yet untested, is:
The Cleric class keeps Domains and Channel Energy.
A Cleric still selects 2 domains to specialize in.
The current spells/day list remains very much like the current one, but reversed. this means that the cleric could cast any domain spell his deity has spontaneously, however only as many as his/her normal level would allow for non-domain spells according to the current set-up.
Example: A third-level cleric with a 16 wisdom gets 2 standard spells plus 1 for his/her wisdom bonus and 1 second-level standard spell plus 1 for wis. As such,the cleric could cast 3 1st level domain spells from his/her deity's domain lists and 2 2nd level spells spontaneously, much like orisons are currently cast.
Non-domain spells work as if they were the current system's domain spells but with a minor variation, from the following options;
either
1 plus the wis bonus add as per gaining extra spells normally, so the same 3rd level cleric could spontaneously cast 2 non-domain 1st level spells and 2 non domain second level spells
or
as many non-domain spells as the cleric's Wis bonus.
or
1 plus the cleric's wis bonus.
or
1 plus half the cleric's wis bonus
This allows the Cleric to maintain the Deity connection and still use non-domain spells effetivly.