Hey, i have a campaign that i am going to be running. It was originally intended to be a roleplay/storyline driven campaign where the PCs are Shackles pirates. The story evolves into a global conflict between Rahadoum and Cheliax in search of an ancient civilization with the pirates skirting the edge of the fighting, searching the underworld and the high seas for clues to end goal. Now my problem comes up with my summoner. we start the campaign at 5th level and he completely dumped his str and dex which makes me feel he is unbalanced enough because he still has 22 str and 16 dex, but he picked up the "skilled" evolution for his eidlon and now has +22 to diplomacy. i find that its hard enough for me to create NPC reactions to his ghostly visage but how do i handle this in my campaign? I'm about to just ban summoners because i've had them in my campaign and they have done nothing but cause trouble and ruin the fun for other players.
You may say that synthesist eidlons can't get skills which i tried but according to this
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8k8r/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate -Magic#v5748eaic9obb
he can.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=414580
This is his character sheet, and i can't help but feel he will ruin the game for everyone. Also on another note, he wants to build a STR based snake eidlon, so he wants to go with a tail and tail slap instead of legs. But i don't want to give him that because its another attack. Also if the eidlons base speed is 20, does the synthesist also have a base speed twenty? thanks!
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Hey, i have a campaign that i am going to be running. It was originally intended to be a roleplay/storyline driven campaign where the PCs are Shackles pirates. The story evolves into a global conflict between Rahadoum and Cheliax in search of an ancient civilization with the pirates skirting the edge of the fighting, searching the underworld and the high seas for clues to end goal. Now my problem comes up with my summoner. we start the campaign at 5th level and he completely dumped his str and dex which makes me feel he is unbalanced enough because he still has 22 str and 16 dex, but he picked up the "skilled" evolution for his eidlon and now has +22 to diplomacy. i find that its hard enough for me to create NPC reactions to his ghostly visage but how do i handle this in my campaign? I'm about to just ban summoners because i've had them in my campaign and they have done nothing but cause trouble and ruin the fun for other players.
You may say that synthesist eidlons can't get skills which i tried but according to this
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8k8r/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate -Magic#v5748eaic9obb
he can.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=414580
This is his character sheet, and i can't help but feel he will ruin the game for everyone. Also on another note, he wants to build a STR based snake eidlon, so he wants to go with a tail and tail slap instead of legs. But i don't want to give him that because its another attack. Also if the eidlons base speed is 20, does the synthesist also have a base speed twenty? thanks!
Unless this is for Pathfinder Society, you're perfectly in the right to say "only one stat below 10" or even "no stats below 10" for your campaign. That would solve the dumping stats issue.
As far as the synthesist class goes, it's true that it can be a powerhouse if built correctly. The player is definitely correct in that he can get +8 to his skills by taking the evolution, but make sure to not that HE CAN ONLY USE THAT BONUS WHEN THE EIDOLON IS SUMMONED. You definitely have the right to rule that his diplomacy would also take a penalty when the eidolon is summoned because he no longer looks humanoid (or is riding around in a transparent giant snake, just as scary).
The tail slap given by taking the serpentine form is legit, and I would advise against trying to take that away, as it's part of the base form as written. Looking over his character sheet, it seems legit, so I'd say the most you should do to limit his character is tell him to re-stat to get either Str or Dex up to 10 (that'll force him to lower Cha or Int by a point) and give a penalty on Diplomacy with humanoids when he's using the eidolon form (maybe a -4, that way he's still getting a significant increase from spending the evolution point). This would also give you a role-playing hook where creatures that are specifically attracted to his character don't take that penalty.
The only thing I can say is remember diplomacy takes time. It also isn't mind control. Say in rl I work at a military base, I've been told by my boys no one is to come in.my best friend up and asks to go in. I'll tell him no it doesn't matter what he says.
If you keep all of that in mind especially the amount of time it takes it should be fine. I also noticed under char flaws...
"Alice tends to dismiss the opinions of others until they've earned her close trust; she considers herself above most other people."
If the player actually rps any of that its going tq quickly errode any diplomacy successes.
A general good rule is to look over synthesists carefully or ban them.
well he is using the biped form and asking to keep the biped form stats but use the snake form ability.
I was thinking of just making everyone he tries to use diplomacy on 1 step lower, making anyone indifferent automatically unfriendly, increasing his DC by 5. Also what are his characters weaknesses? the ONLY one i can think of is a banishment spell- but thats a high level spell that most pirates don't just carry around ready to be used (maybe some cheliax wizards) but i don't want him to SHINE in 90% of combat then be completly useless for the other 10%
Also how do poisons work on a synthesist? if he takes con damage does the eidlon take damage as well? or is he practically poison immune?
An interesting thing about synth is that if the summoner doesn't qualify for a feat without his eidolon, then you can't take it. Kinda hard building a STR build without power attack isn't it?
Also the speed is limited to the eidolons form when it is out. When its not, the summoner is normal speed.
Also, you do know where he is getting his character concept from right? I won't discourage it if the game is "that kind", but just a fair warning that it is pretty much a close copy of an existing character, down to the name, form, and image, and the source material is VERY MUCH fetish fuel.
Most summoner problems stem from the fact that most summoners are built illegally (common problem with "companion" classes), run incorrectly (some tricky abilities), and GMs don't fully understand the class (understandable since there is over 20 base classes currently). Add in the archetypes that are often unclearly worded and its not too surprising that there are issues.
Try to work through the issues. I've found that even even summoners ,assuming equal optimizing across the party, aren't over powered. Sure they can do a fair amount of damage, cast spells, and can get around dump stating (kinda). They also have glaringly obvious issues that are easily exploitable by GMs if they know how to do so.
Synths also suffer from the fact they have a huge debuff in action economy compared to std summoners. Giving up being able to cast spells every round for the ability to engage in hand to hand combat? Ugh. Druids can do that, and don't give up having their pet, magus can cast and fight, and std arcane casters can just laugh at the idea and have fun just using their spells to summon minions.
In a game where HP is just one of many metrics of achieving victory, your synth is giving up much quicker paths to victory and risking much more for the dubious ability to do less damage than a similarly optimized barbarian or fighter. If he is "unbalancing" then your other players are underpowered.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Oh yeah I totally didn't see that he's trying to use the biped form and then trade out legs for the tail and tail slap. No chance. If he wants to use the Serpentine form, he should use the Serpentine base stats. There's a reason the base stats are listed the way they are, they balance out things like an extra attack.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Poisons work on him just like a normal character. Remember that the Synthesist's eidolon is NOT a seperate being, so if she starts taking Con damage it will affect her temporary con score, but when she de-summons the eidolon, she'll still have the same amount of Con damage. Also, remember that healing spells such as cure light wounds DO NOT affect the temporary HP gained from the eidolon form, so he'll have to use Rejuvenate Eidolon to gain any of that HP back.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
An interesting thing about synth is that if the summoner doesn't qualify for a feat without his eidolon, then you can't take it. Kinda hard building a STR build without power attack isn't it?
The general rule of thumb is that if you can qualify for a feat for 24 hours straight, then you take the feat. So, synth summoners don't have to worry about this since they don't have a time limit on their eidolon form.
At least, this is the rule of thumb I've read some of the developers using.
Poisons work on him just like a normal character. Remember that the Synthesist's eidolon is NOT a seperate being, so if she starts taking Con damage it will affect her temporary con score, but when she de-summons the eidolon, she'll still have the same amount of Con damage. Also, remember that healing spells such as cure light wounds DO NOT affect the temporary HP gained from the eidolon form, so he'll have to use Rejuvenate Eidolon to gain any of that HP back.
Not true. Physical stat damage will affect the eidolon's stats at first. The summoner himself won't get damage from the poison until the eidolon is dismissed, and only if the poison hasn't been cured yet.
@Notabot Firstly, i didn't know that his character was a fetish character but i have RPed with him before and he knows (Or should know) that i don't do sex in my campaigns. it shouldn't be an issue. But what weaknesses do synthesists have? he is getting away without having power attack by simply having 22 strength as a base along with 3-4 natural attacks. if he full rounds someone they are dead from the bonus damage alone, and when most of your NPCs at 5th level only have around 20 AC he has a very good chance of hitting them.
If nothing else, you can just sit down with the player and go over the trouble spots.
If you think his diplomacy is too high ask him to lower it. If you think he's too strong in combat, work with him to find other interesting ideas for his evolutions/stat points that involve things other than combat. (take that evolution for a knowledge skill or something- still useful but far less abusable etc.)
A chat with the guy in question is really the most profitable thing to do, do solve your problem. And at the end of the day if he refuses to tone it down you can either tell him the changes stand anyway or just ban the class.
What I advise against is just letting him play it anyway while you try to modify the entire campaign around him. The world shouldn't change to fit any particular player.
-S
It has been clarified that the synthesist can qualify for feats using his fused stats. So he can qualify for power attack, he just doesn't get to use it when unfused.An interesting thing about synth is that if the summoner doesn't qualify for a feat without his eidolon, then you can't take it. Kinda hard building a STR build without power attack isn't it?
Source? Cause its pretty stupid that you can qualify for a feat just because you pulled an all nighter one time. I couldn't find anywhere it said you could sleep with your eidolon active.
I'm not talking developer commentaries either, full FAQ/errata or it didn't happen (same thing goes for for titan mauler).
...I'm about to just ban summoners because i've had them in my campaign and they have done nothing but cause trouble and ruin the fun for other players...
This is all you needed to say.
Hit it with the banhammer ===[]
edit: in the future, part of your character creation guidelines could be for players to propose a few concepts, so you can let them know which will be most appropriate for the campaign.
But what weaknesses do synthesists have? he is getting away without having power attack by simply having 22 strength as a base along with 3-4 natural attacks. if he full rounds someone they are dead from the bonus damage alone, and when most of your NPCs at 5th level only have around 20 AC he has a very good chance of hitting them.
It isn't uncommon for a well designed character to kill an npc with a full round attack. It is easier to design a powerful synth character, but it still shouldn't be more powerful than a well designed fighter.
The synth's main weakness is that it takes a minute to summon an eidolon 'properly'. This, on top of the fact that it shouldn't be socially acceptable for the synthesist to run around in town in eidolon form, means surprise attacks work well. If the synthesist uses the 'summon eidolon' spell to quickly summon the eidolon, then it can be blocked by simple Protection from Evil spells and stopped with Dispel Magic.
Summoners of all types have problems dealing with Damage Reduction at low levels. Throw an enemy at her that has DR 5 that she can't overcome and she'll lose 20 damage per round. Throw DR 10 at her and watch her become useless. I wouldn't suggest using this too often though, because the player might get upset at being 'countered'.
The ability for synthesists to take the Extra Evolution feat is debatable. Synthesists replace the eidolon class ability (a prerequisite of the feat) with the fused eidolon ability. As already mentioned, a bipedal eidolon cannot trade out its limbs (legs) for tail and tail slap. The bipedal eidolon should have 9 evolution points and have to pay for a fourth natural attack. Those two modifications would bring the synthesist closer to the realm of sanity.
Also, be aware that Diplomacy is not a be-all-end-all skill. Per the PRD, "Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future," and, "some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature’s values or its nature, subject to GM discretion."
Finally, items. You cannot craft or buy a headband of alluring charisma +1 or locket with a heightened continual flame (which overcomes deeper darkness) unless the GM provides tacit approval for a custom item. The devs have stated that attribute-increasing items were limited to even-numbered boosts in the CRB for a reason (which I think is rather obvious, but you can search up the relevant threads on these boards). Also, I didn't do the math on the character's WBL but I see the only feat taken other than multiple Extra Evolutions is Craft Wondrous Items... that raises red flags right there (if the word synthesist didn't go through your entire supply of flags already). Allowing a character to pay 1/2 price for crafted magic items during character generation (if that's what has occurred here) is a terrible idea.
The general rule in the game not connected to synth is if you can hood a stat over 24hrs its treated as permanent. Basically someone with 10 str and a+4 str item can take power attack.
Finally done let the PC modify the forms at all, he's either a humanoid or a serpent not one with mixed stats and evolutions.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, you do know where he is getting his character concept from right? I won't discourage it if the game is "that kind", but just a fair warning that it is pretty much a close copy of an existing character, down to the name, form, and image, and the source material is VERY MUCH fetish fuel.
*clicks on link. sees picture.*
[georgetakei]Oh myyyyyy[/georgetakei]
Also, you do know where he is getting his character concept from right? I won't discourage it if the game is "that kind", but just a fair warning that it is pretty much a close copy of an existing character, down to the name, form, and image, and the source material is VERY MUCH fetish fuel.
*clicks on link. sees picture.*
[georgetakei]Oh myyyyyy[/georgetakei]
Yeah, if you search for where it comes from make sure safe search is on lol.
|
You can also target his reflex save, which is probably his poorest save.
You can also use difficult terrain to limit his full attacks. Make it hard for him to get an Amulet of Mighty fist, and use enemies with DR, that will lower his DPR greatly.
Quoted for truth, I think at least once per module I make sure to throw in a constrained terrain combat just to throw the balance out for the players. Suddenly the players in full plate find themselves chasing the foes around desperate to just lock them down. It is especially great with incorporeal/flying/undead who don't give 2 cents over the mucky swamp the players are stuck in.
Okay, well i was thinking about making them have to wade through a swamp while they were getting guerrilla attacked by rangers and druids with frog animal companions that would grapple them at range. whats a good way to throw reflex saves into this? other than wizards and sorcerors. im looking for something somewhat unique.
There seems to be something wrong and i can't put my finger on it.. where is he getting his saves from. as far as i can tell synthesists don't gain their eidlons saves. am i missing something?
There seems to be something wrong and i can't put my finger on it.. where is he getting his saves from. as far as i can tell synthesists don't gain their eidlons saves. am i missing something?
They don't get their eidolon's saves, but the Shielded Meld ability grants him a +2 bonus to saves and armor. Also, his save bonuses change when his Dex and Con get replaced with those of the eidolon. His saves won't be as good as say.. a Paladin with good Cha, but they'll still be good.
So find something that targets fort. Poisons are your best bet and it fits a swamp theme perfectly.
If he's putting together frog druid opponents in a swamp anyways:
rain of frogsFort-based distraction and Con-damaging poison all in one nice bundle.
So basically... This guy has crazy good damage, even crazier HP and very respectable saves. he holds multiple attacks but each one of them hit like a truck. So the only things that can stop him are Dr creatures (Which is less likely because most everyone is humanoid in this campaign) and banishment which is WAAY too specific for just him.
So basically... This guy has crazy good damage, even crazier HP and very respectable saves. he holds multiple attacks but each one of them hit like a truck. So the only things that can stop him are Dr creatures (Which is less likely because most everyone is humanoid in this campaign) and banishment which is WAAY too specific for just him.
Honestly, I think part of the problem is that your other players may not know the game well enough to make characters that can compare to the synthesist. I have seen many characters that are as strong as (if not stronger) than a synthesist can be. The problem is that it is just easy to design a powerful eidolon.
If you're going to nerf the character, don't nerf him too much or he will just be useless if someone joins the party with say... a well built paladin, a beastmorph vivisectionist, or an archer.
|
Paizo screwed up on this archetype although there is a stealth nerf I think coming in. If you read the PRD entry the stat replacement line is gone, and a synthesist only gains the bonus to abilities of the Eidolon.
They also need to lower the natural armor of the eidolon. Maybe killing the natural armor evolution or lowering the bonus natural armor progression by -2 every 5 levels or changing the bonus natural armor to an armor bonus. With these two changes I think the summoner class (archetypes) will be fairly balanced.
Just read the PRD and the stat line remains unchanged, still granting you the Eidolon physical stats.
I have a PFS synth though and I agree, they are tremendously easy to overpower.
Scary character for a DM to deal with (though if the DM allows this cheese, they deserve it):
Ancient paladin who was granted a celestial being to serve him by his god while at death's door.
Venerable Half-Elf Paladin 2/Synthesist 1+
Dump Str/Dex/Con to 7 (1 with aging) (he was at death's door)
Enjoy the wonderful Eidolon physical stats while pumping up your mental stats
Stat block:
Str: 1 (16)
Dex: 1 (12)
Con: 1 (13)
Int: 17
Wis: 19
Cha: 23
Saves:
Fort: +10
Reflex: +7
Will: +15
Take the feat that keeps the eidolon around when asleep/unconscious. Congrats. You just created a juggernaut with great defenses and that can only really be stopped (without overwhelming the entire party) by a banishment spell against a strong save, or an anti-magic field. Granted, if either of those happens, you die instantly as your max HP without the eidolon's Con is decreasing as you level, eventually going into the negatives. Though, you really just need to survive long enough to afford a reincarnation spell to solve that problem.
One of my players is a horrible min-maxer who tries to get every bonus possible . . . if he runs a one-shot I may try and play this to give him a taste of his own medicine.
|
If you're going to nerf the character, don't nerf him too much or he will just be useless if someone joins the party with say... a well built paladin, a beastmorph vivisectionist, or an archer.
This.
There are quite a few builds that are just as strong or stronger than a synthesist. Unless you plan on nerfing paladins, alchemist, fighters, barbarians and druids you're wasting your time. The power gamers will just move to another build.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Scary character for a DM to deal with (though if the DM allows this cheese, they deserve it):
Ancient paladin who was granted a celestial being to serve him by his god while at death's door.
Venerable Half-Elf Paladin 2/Synthesist 1+
Dump Str/Dex/Con to 7 (1 with aging) (he was at death's door)
Enjoy the wonderful Eidolon physical stats while pumping up your mental statsStat block:
Str: 1 (16)
Dex: 1 (12)
Con: 1 (13)
Int: 17
Wis: 19
Cha: 23Saves:
Fort: +10
Reflex: +7
Will: +15Take the feat that keeps the eidolon around when asleep/unconscious. Congrats. You just created a juggernaut with great defenses and that can only really be stopped (without overwhelming the entire party) by a banishment spell against a strong save, or an anti-magic field. Granted, if either of those happens, you die instantly as your max HP without the eidolon's Con is decreasing as you level, eventually going into the negatives. Though, you really just need to survive long enough to afford a reincarnation spell to solve that problem.
One of my players is a horrible min-maxer who tries to get every bonus possible . . . if he runs a one-shot I may try and play this to give him a taste of his own medicine.
If you dumped Str/Dex/Con to 7, the lowest they could possibly go would be 4 (three age categories to get to Venerable, which is the oldest category you can get). You'd never actually hit 1 on any of them, and that also means you're only getting a +1 to each mental score.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
First it is your job to prove that fused stats can qualify you for feats, because fused stats aren't your stats it's something temporarily giving them to you even if you pulled an all nighter with your Ediy on it's still not your stat. Since your Ediy can be knocked off you, and the Syn's Ediy is nothing more than body armor or a magic item in essence, and a feat requires your character to have the prerequistes after all you can't take Power attack if you get a magic item that increases your strength.SKR answered my question on that in the One Synthesist Thread to Rule them all. I mean you need to prove that fused stats doesn't qualify for feats instead of me proving otherwise, since the rules are specific that after 24 hours temporary stats become permanent and nothing stops a synth from pulling an all nighter at 1st level.It has been clarified that the synthesist can qualify for feats using his fused stats. So he can qualify for power attack, he just doesn't get to use it when unfused.An interesting thing about synth is that if the summoner doesn't qualify for a feat without his eidolon, then you can't take it. Kinda hard building a STR build without power attack isn't it?
Source? Cause its pretty stupid that you can qualify for a feat just because you pulled an all nighter one time. I couldn't find anywhere it said you could sleep with your eidolon active.
I'm not talking developer commentaries either, full FAQ/errata or it didn't happen (same thing goes for for titan mauler).
Your argument fell apart when you stated that "in essence" the eidolon is the same as "a magic item". Magic items can qualify you for feats as long as they're worn for 24 hours (it becomes a permanent bonus at that point).
Personally, I think that if a class feature qualifies you for a feat, you should be able to take it. Druids should be able to take any feats that they qualify for through Wild Shape. Synthesists can take any feat their eidolon-shell lets them qualify for. This will not break the game, because these feats can only be used when the class feature is active (in other words, your druid can't use Flyby Attack when he's not wild-shaped into a bird, cuz he doesn't have a fly speed. Your summoner can't use Power Attack and Cleave when his eidolon's not around because he doesn't have the prerequisite 13 Str).
|
|
If you dumped Str/Dex/Con to 7, the lowest they could possibly go would be 4 (three age categories to get to Venerable, which is the oldest category you can get). You'd never actually hit 1 on any of them, and that also means you're only getting a +1 to each mental score.
All the stat penalty and bonuses stack, and the penalties are worse:
-----------net-1/+1 +++ -1/1
-2/+1 +++ -3/+2
-3/+2 +++ -6/+3
So a 7 starting becomes a 1
Check the duration.
Take the feat that keeps the eidolon around when asleep/unconscious.
Ah. I've looked at that feat quite a bit, and never noticed that (and/or have selective memory). I stand corrected. Maybe power-naps would be in order to keep this guy alive?
Though, anything that makes a completely stupid character less possible is a good thing in my book.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
If you dumped Str/Dex/Con to 7, the lowest they could possibly go would be 4 (three age categories to get to Venerable, which is the oldest category you can get). You'd never actually hit 1 on any of them, and that also means you're only getting a +1 to each mental score.
All the stat penalty and bonuses stack, and the penalties are worse:
-----------net
-1/+1 +++ -1/1
-2/+1 +++ -3/+2
-3/+2 +++ -6/+3So a 7 starting becomes a 1
HOLY CRAP THEY'RE CUMULATIVE!
That's crazy. Definitely never noticed that. I MAY have to do this at some point now.
|
|
Can you use the fused physical stats to qualify for feats? Or must the synthesist use his own stats?Just as a Str11 character wearing a belt of strength +2 bumps him to Str13 and allows him to take Power Attack, you can do this. You just couldn't use the feat without the belt/eidolon-suit.
Argue with this.
He's not doing that.
He's using the Aquatic base form, as presented in Ultimate Magic.
Which has the same stats as the biped, and a few more free evolution points.
It's been altered since earlier in the day.