Casting Through Friendly and Hostile Squares


Rules Questions


Having a hard time getting my head wrapped around Line of Sight and Line of Effect rules. Had this situation come up:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9808/losquestion.jpg

Basically four characters on the same row:
(A) (B) (C) (D)

(A) is a gnome, (B) is a half-orc, (C) is a bulky human, and (D) is a small human.

Initially (A) wanted to cast Produce Flame then hurl it at (C). In the spell description it says, "Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon." I didn't allow this since (B) was in the way, just as I wouldn't allow a thrown dagger or a bow shot.

(A) then wanted to cast a targeted spell similar to Magic Missle at (D), which I wanted to disallow. This started some lively debate.

How does this resolve in Path Finder? Do magic spells obey Line of Effect while thrown/fired weapons follow Line of Sight?

To be honest I'm still confused about Line of Effect. Because when I try to "step back" and look at what's happening, I see a small gnome trying to look around a large, friendly body of an orc. Then past a bulky human in half-plate armor and a shield. Finally finding the target and unleashing the spell. But... apparently bodies aren't a "solid barrier", right?

Trying to get a finger on the reasoning. Is it just "magic"? Are spells smart enough to dodge a friendly and an enemy to reach the target at the back? Almost seems like metagaming. The player knows a target is in the square and decided to aim the spell there.

Oh and... do magic spells ignore partial/full concealment?

TiA for opinions and insight! :)


Solid objects such as walls can block line of effect. People do not, but they do provide soft cover. There is also the issue of making a ranged attack against an enemy that is in melee with your friends. Both of these are covered below. If a spell uses a ranged attack, to include range touch attacks, it also has to follow the rules that are below.

Quote:

Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)

If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.

If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.

Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat, you don't take this penalty.

Quote:
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.


As far as actual Line of Sight subjects are concerned, this is something that isn't exactly covered by the rules (or is it? I don't know where it would be covered if it is). A GM does need to make the call to keep the game going.

I will argue this; depending upon the spell and its function also determines whether or not a character is viable to reach or affect the target (without getting the other).

For a spell such as Magic Missile, the spell is stated to have uncanny accuracy, and that it can never miss its target. Because of this, as long as the Gnome can see even a small fraction of the target, the Gnome should be able to use the spell Magic Missile on the target without issue.

For a spell such as Acid Splash, or any other spell requiring a Ranged Touch Attack, if the character is covered by 2+ characters, the Gnome would have to make a usual D20 roll. For my houseruling, I would say that if they hit the AC of the target intended with 5 or more to spare per target within the way (so if the target has AC 20 and the Gnome hit AC 30 with 2 creatures in the way, the caster indisputably hit the creature); though I would also apply basic rules of 20 is always a solid hit, and 1 is always a solid miss.

In the case of a miss of 5 or more (and the roll is close to the AC of the objects in the way), the Gnome would then roll a percentile, picking high or low to miss (since it is 2 targets taking up equal space, it would be a 1/3 chance to just completely miss them), designating which 2 creatures are in what brackets.

If the percentile is within their called range, the attack automatically misses, and if it is within one of the two specified targets, the attack hits them instead, following the mechanics of the spell as normal.

Again, whether or not this is specifically stated within the rules, I don't know (since I doubt I would be able to find it); but as far as a house-ruling, that's how I would rule it as, and it would be fair in terms of ruling, and in terms of realistic (fantasy-influenced) physics.

Shadow Lodge

There's a reason why medium creatures take up a 5ft square as opposed to just a 2-3 ft square, and it's not because they fill out the entire area. A small gnome (or, anyone) is going to be able to move around his square so that he can get shots off through the bodies of other medium sized people. It doesn't matter if it's a spell, an arrow, or even a reach weapon. Give the target the +4 soft cover the rules gives him (plus possibly another +4 for being in melee with an opponent), and leave it at that.


concerto covered the actual rules here.

Creatures don't block line of effect; they just make it more difficult to aim accurately. In this case, you'll end up attaking at -4 from firing into melee, and the target will have +4 to AC from the sort cover of creatures in the way. So effectively the allies between you and your target put the attack at -8 to hit. This is a severe enough penalty to simulate the difficulties of getting a clear shot.

To understand why we allow a shot at all, do yourself a favor sometime and actually measure out a five-foot square on the ground, then stand in it. As you can see, you take up only a small fraction of this space. Other creatures similarly have plenty of room in their squares. So the shot (taken at effectively a -8, remember) is an attempt to find that moment when the allies are clear of the target.

Note also that the Precise Shot feat line represent training necessary to negate these penalties. An archer with both feats can shoot the target as though she had a completely clear shot.

Sczarni

Also note that soft cover should follow the general idea that other forms of cover do...such as a large creature trying to use a 2ft wall as cover...that should not provide enough to count...nor should you 2.5 ft halflng for a human archer.


Question!

Had the gnome(A) attempted to hurl his Produce Flame at the smaller human(D) would he have taken cover twice as there are two people in the way? As in -4 for melee, -4 for half-orc(B), and -4 for Bulk Human(C). Total -12. Or is it just -4 for any people in the way?


No, the soft cover bonus only applies once, even if there are multiple people in the way. +4 to AC against ranged attacks.


AvalonXQ wrote:
No, the soft cover bonus only applies once, even if there are multiple people in the way. +4 to AC against ranged attacks.

Sadly this is true by RAW.

Does it make sense that shooting a ray around one orc to hit the shaman 100 ft behind him is just as easy as shooting through a 100 ft deep horde of orcs to hit the shaman behind them...? Seriously?

Sometimes you just have to ignore the RAW.


Cyberwolf2xs wrote:
AvalonXQ wrote:
No, the soft cover bonus only applies once, even if there are multiple people in the way. +4 to AC against ranged attacks.

Sadly this is true by RAW.

Does it make sense that shooting a ray around one orc to hit the shaman 100 ft behind him is just as easy as shooting through a 100 ft deep horde of orcs to hit the shaman behind them...? Seriously?

Sometimes you just have to ignore the RAW.

Nothing says that just because its soft cover doesn't mean it isnt cover if the shaman has that many guys in front he has total cover.

Or at the vary least it would double under the rules for improved over to a +8.

Sovereign Court

If you can see the shaman I don't understand why it would matter at all how many orcs were in front of him. The important thing is that you can see him. You'd still have range increments and the like to worry about to protect him.

And yes as other said, creatures don't block Line of Sight or Line of Effect. PC's and NPC's alike are perfectly capable of shooting through ranks, into melee combat or similar things, so long as the proper modifiers to the target's AC and the attacker's to-hit rolls are applied.

To actually block Line of Sight you need something a lot more filling then just some characters. That's reserved for things like solid walls, cloud effects and so forth. Line of effect doesn't come up to often, as if you can't see a target normally you don't know they are there to effect, but that normally is also blocked by solid objects.

We could use a wall of force for example. It creates a solid object you can see through, but things like a Lightning Bolt won't go through it to hit targets on the other side of it.


In the example it was 100ft of orcish horde if the caster unless the caster is on higher ground its gonna be really hard to convince someone you still have line of sight.


Thanks much to everyone who responded! I haven't GM'd in years and was in a different system at the time, so it's taking me some time to get a handle on the differences. There were a number of good posts on this subject but none had the example I was faced with. :)

Darksol the Painbringer, I really appreciated your suggestion. I'm going to suggest that to the group. Magic is supposed to be very powerful but it felt like that situation needed a little balancing.

From my reading about these forums my only real contention with Line of Effect thus far is glass. It does seem very silly that a simple pane of glass would block lightning bolts and fire balls. Haven't had that issue yet but something else I want to settle with the group before we do encounter it. ;)

Sovereign Court

Actually a pane of glass would likely be destroyed by a Lightning Bolt which would then be allowed to continue past it given the glass' low hardness and hit points per thickness. A Fireball reacts differently with objects as well as it still uses the small bead of flame from previous generations. The glass window it was trying to be shot through would become the new center of the blast when the bead hits it, likely destroying the glass and potentially backfiring on the caster and their friends.

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