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I've seen reviews of the ARG speak about a level-adjustment table in the back of the ARG. The new races are now available in the SRD here, but I can't find this magic table. Without this level-adjustment table, all of these races game mechanically appear equivalent to the core races. However, cursory inspection reveals that many of them are exceedingly more powerful than the core races. Anyone know where this magic table is?
thanks
There is no la table. What the art has is a recommendation that if you have a race of 20 rp or more encounters get their cr increased. But of does not now more has it ever used la.
One of the changes in Pathfinder was a recommendation to use CR as the "level adjustment" guideline. Which even back in 3.5 often made more sense then the actual LA values Wizards came up with. Additionally you also reduce the impact of the "LA" every 3 levels until its only half what it was.
In the case of the ARG there is a table that suggests increasing the CR of encounters based parties with higher Race Point value races. You can use it as a guide to help figure out the equivalent level of high RP races or even build kinda-monster-classes where players "grow" into different race powers over time.
The ARG table is also for increasing NPC CRs from what I understand.
Here's the steps I used when I built my new monsters/races for my campaigns.
-I wrote down what i wanted it to do.
-I looked through the options available in the ARG.
-Chose the options I needed to get near my concept (tweaking some that were close but not exact).
-A:Used the CR Adjustment table, alongside comparison to current monsters, to guide me through adding Racial Hit Dice and determining CR and such.
-B: Added Class levels and determined their cr then adjusted based on the chart values for their over all level.
An example:
Lesser Hound Archon Paladin Level 3 based on the Race Points value he gets a +1 adjustment. That makes him a CR 2 character.
This leads to a monster/race fairly balanced to the ones in the Bestiary. The hardest part was figuring out how to do the stats. Then I looked at the ARG playtest PDF and figured out that most monsters use a straight 10 statline with modifications for intelligence and such
I could be wrong of course as I didn't get exact but I did get close enough for it to work.
Hope that helps you.
Hmmm. One of my players bought the book and wants to use it. What guidance is given to level the gaming table between these ARG races and core races? There is a clear power level difference.
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Jubal, when applying this sort of thing to PCs, I usually either give the other PCs extra racial traits (if I'm feeling particularly nice) or just handwave it (on the understanding that Tom and Dick know Harry's drow noble character is going to be a bit more powerful, but they chose to play humans anyway). As long as your gaming group is pretty nice and mature, they should be fine with either solution.
Then again, you can always give them roleplaying boons: Remember that the drow noble, the duergar, and a lot of the funny-looking fantastic races you create are going to have social stigma attached. So the new race might be more powerful, but that character is going to get charged more for equipment, snubbed at taverns, and might get attacked in the street in extreme cases.
Truthfully the races are incredibly balanced at least in terms of base racial abilities. It is when you get into the alternate racial traits. Such as how one person was complaining over at Giant in the playground. He was saying he could build a race that has +2,+2 to two stats and yet humans have to give up their bonus feat and extra skill points to have +2,+2. He didn't realize when making a race you set the +2,+2 bonuses for that race. While humans get +2,+2 to any stats they chose so 2 humans can take that trait with one having the bonuses to STR & CON and the other having them to DEX & INT.
It is the same discussion with classes and archetypes.
The races might have more Race Points than most but they are still balanced. Now if a race was higher than 15 then I would probably let the other players have an XP bonus at the beginning of the campaign. Anything less than 15 is balanced. Especially if you take into account some bonuses are conditional such as those of the ifrit, oread, teifling, and even the suli.
Also classes are equalizers between races. I can say that through experience in over 50 campaigns being both a player and GM.
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Hmmm. One of my players bought the book and wants to use it. What guidance is given to level the gaming table between these ARG races and core races? There is a clear power level difference.
All of the base races (not advanced races) are fairly balanced. If you just stick to chapter 1 and 2 you should be fine.
What are you calling base races? A lot of uncommon races are balanced.
Really, the only ones that are substantially stronger than normal characters are Drow Noble, Svirfneblin, and Duergar. Everything else is close enough, considering. There is some stuff in the book that might be problematic (paragon surge, Kistune enchantment sorcerer, etc), but that stuff isn't confined to any one chapter, and it isn't substantially worse than what comes with any other new book.
Is the Aasimar in chapters 1 or 2? If yes, I don't see how this race is equivalent to any of the core races:
Standard Racial Traits
Ability Score Racial Traits: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable. They gain +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma.
Defense Racial Traits: Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
Skilled: Aasimar have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Magical Racial Traits: Spell-Like Ability (Sp): Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to the aasimar's class level).
Senses Racial Traits: Darkvision: Aasimar have darkvision 60 ft. (they can see perfectly in the dark up to 60 feet.)
How is it not. Nearly everything they get is situational. The skill bonus equates out to less than a human would get. The spell is horribly situational when compared to things like the Gnome's multiple spells and let's face it any Gnome will have the CHA requirement. The energy resistance is surprisingly weak unless you fight casters all the time. Anything else that deals energy damage probably has an attack that avoids said resistance. Low-light vision comes in handier than darkvision. Their ability modifiers are usually viewed as horrible unless you are going divine caster, charisma based arcane casters, or a paladin.
How is it not.
1. It has an additional +2 ability bonus that is not offset
2. Energy resistancesMost every racial ability is situational. We can evaluate the probability of usage, but many builds accentuate their usage.
Bottomline, all core races have a net +2 to ability scores. This race does not and has zero offsetting limitations.
My methodology when dealing with powerful races:
I do not give them adjusted levels, I adjust encounters until I find a good CR based on the race and class combo of the whole party.
Then I give the player with the powerful race RP related problems.
They're often odd looking, even monstrous, so it's easy to balance their combat abilities by making them have a much harder time in non-combat encounters.
I also tend to try and slip the less powerful players a bit more magic items where as I'll give the rarer race less but I'll make each one a little more flavourful.
I do not allow any of the super high RP races though, like Drow Nobles. They're like 4 core races combined.
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Is the Aasimar in chapters 1 or 2? If yes, I don't see how this race is equivalent to any of the core races:
Standard Racial Traits
Ability Score Racial Traits: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable. They gain +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma.
Defense Racial Traits: Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
Skilled: Aasimar have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Magical Racial Traits: Spell-Like Ability (Sp): Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to the aasimar's class level).
Senses Racial Traits: Darkvision: Aasimar have darkvision 60 ft. (they can see perfectly in the dark up to 60 feet.)
The only thing that makes an Aasimar more points than a Tiefling is the Daylight spell like ability, and as everyone knows is far worse as far as abilities than Darkness.
Trust me...its balanced.
*shrugs* Dock the Aasimar or Tiefling a Trait, or give everyone else a third trait upon character generation, and you're pretty much set.
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*shrugs* Dock the Aasimar or Tiefling a Trait, or give everyone else a third trait upon character generation, and you're pretty much set.
That works too.
Keep in mind that most things that people have issues with now mean pretty much diddly squat in like 5 levels. Not having that -2 to a stat won't mean a darn thing.
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Bottomline, all core races have a net +2 to ability scores. This race does not and has zero offsetting limitations.
It absolutely does have offsetting limitations. The limitation is that their bonuses are to non-synergistic mental stats. Aasimar make poor choices for any sort of martial class owing to their lack of physical ability modifiers. As Wisdom-based casters, the Charisma bonus is going to be a +1 bonus to Charisma skills, and perhaps an extra "Channel Energy." As a Charisma-based caster, Wisdom is +1 to skills and +1 to their (already good) Will save, while leaving their (likely poor) physical saves low. These are not large modifications overall, and in a point-buy environment their overall ability scores may well be indistinguishable from a core race whose ability score penalty is irrelevant to their class.
The Resistances are certainly nice at very low level, but as soon as resist energy comes into play at level 3 they are less important (as resistances do not stack), and by mid-levels are easily forgotten amongst the myriad ways to gain resistance. Worse yet, they are missing fire resistance, which is by far the most common element (especially at low levels, where this ability is more relevant). It is by no means a bad ability, mind you, but not enough to make the Aasimar "exceedingly more powerful." Frankly, I'd rather have Hardy or Halfling Luck any day.
The overall package really isn't anything to write home about. They weren't even that great in 3.5, where their modifier was +4 vs +0 instead of +4 vs +2. Certainly not worth a level adjustment. While they are certainly better than the low end of the core races (poor little Half-Orcs), they easily fit into the spectrum of power between that and the high end (Dwarf). I believe the same can be said for the vast majority of the races in the book, with a few underground races as notable exceptions.
Believe it or not the resistances aren't even really useful except against Arcane Cantrips and let's be honest anyone relying on those after level 5 should already be dead.
If you look their ability is only good to have when in a dark cavern in a party consisting mostly of low-light/normal vision characters.
But if you claim the aasimar is OP then what about a dwarf getting a +2 to CON? Since CON is considered one of the most important stats in the game.
Or an Orc getting a net -2 overall.
In the end we can argue about the net ability score all day. The net values don't matter what matters is what scores they modify.
In the end I have played/GM'd in over 50 campaigns in the past 3-4 years. And I can tell you no race is more powerful than the next. They all have an equalizer.
The Aasimar would be fairly useless if it cost you a feat. I run Aasimars and Tieflings with no penalties in my games, and they're still not as common as the normal core races. Both races are already well balanced, in my opinion and according to my experience.
I don't understand why they don't balance powerful races by having them cost future feats. For example, the Aasimar above might be a lot closer to being balanced if it cost your first feat (or maybe two, haven't thought about it too much).
They actually did do this, in a way, for the Drow Noble. With a half dozen racial feats you can turn your normal Drow into a faux-Noble, minus the huge stat bonuses. There are also races that have feats that turn ho-hum abilities into substantially more useful abilities, such as the Vishkanya's Sleep Venom or the Suli's Incremental Elemental Assault. I rather prefer this to a straight cost, as it allows you to emphasis a race's nature without requiring you pay resources simply to use something unusual.
For most of the races, though, the granularity simply isn't there, and hurts those that want to play against style. A feat is a fairly major cost, especially at lower levels. It would be questionable when playing a synergistic class/race combo, and make non-synergistic combinations prohibitively problematic. Basically, you start moving towards the problems of the LA system. I prefer dealing with the (in my opinion, fairly small) power differences between races than having mechanical impediments to their use.
So, you don't think +2 to a stat is worth a feat?
If it was +2 to an ability score of my choice, perhaps.
But races can't really be considered in a vacuum. Compared to a human, an Aasimar already loses one feat for his additional +2 to one ability.
But races can't really be considered in a vacuum.
This is the truth.
@Jubal if you really want perfectly balanced races then make everyone play a single race. Or have everyone create their own race using the ARG Race Builder using a strict 10 Point limit. Heck, why don't you just go design races for your campaign with a 10 point limit?
I have built races. And I can tell you race is superficial after level 5. In fact the ARG helped races become more than stat boosts at level 1 and a few gimmicky abilities for low-levels.
Aasimar compared to Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, even Humans are weak. All they have are situational abilities that probably won't come up after at most level 10 in a low-magic party. 2 stat boosts that are only good if you roll/buy specific stats. And even then they only work well as casters.
If it was +2 to an ability score of my choice, perhaps.
Humans give up what makes them a competitive race choice for this. And I have seen one person take that option and they regretted it in fact they retired the character.
If it was +2 to an ability score of my choice, perhaps.Humans give up what makes them a competitive race choice for this. And I have seen one person take that option and they regretted it in fact they retired the character.
I'm not sure what you're saying. The human racial option only trades the feat, but also puts limitations on when you get the +2 ability score bonus (when you acquire an animal companion, bonded mount, cohort, or familiar). I don't think that option is worth it at all.
In any case, I said "perhaps". I think a feat that granted +2 to an ability score of my choice would perhaps be worth it. Not always, and certainly not for every character. Most likely only in the late-game, when the character already had the other feats I wanted.
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Humans give up what makes them a competitive race choice for this. And I have seen one person take that option and they regretted it in fact they retired the character.
If it was +2 to an ability score of my choice, perhaps.
That option is best for +0 BAB classes with heaps of skill points. Ninja, rogue, alchemist, etc. receive the greatest benefit because their first-level feat options are meagre, and they tend to be quite MAD.
IIRC it is both the feat and Skill point traits. I could be wrong it has been a little bit since I read it...
Edit:
Dual Talent: Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score,the bonus feat,and the skilled traits.
OK I have to say so far I have seen no race that after adding in class is more powerful than any other race after level 10. And that is with me rounding up from Level 8.
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OK I have to say so far I have seen no race that after adding in class is more powerful than any other race after level 10. And that is with me rounding up from Level 8.
Short of some of the bigger premades in the back of the book...not really...race makes very little difference (short of movement speeds) at that point...
IIRC it is both the feat and Skill point traits. I could be wrong it has been a little bit since I read it...
Edit:
Dual Talent: Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score,the bonus feat,and the skilled traits.
Okay, that's a pretty horrible option.
Regardless, I made my original answer purely in the context of the question of whether I thought a +2 to an ability score was worth a feat. Which it could be, for some characters, as a regular feat rather than as a replacement for a 1st level bonus feat.
Yes, power levels of characters depend more on class than on race at higher levels, because the percentage of class/feat special abilities scale with level while race special abilities do not. But the acceptance of this premise supports the conclusion that race does matter at low levels. Therefore, it's at the low level where I evaluate power-level for races.
I would also suggest that optimizing builds select race AFTER class/concept. At least, that's how most class guides are written... which race optimizes which builds. Therefore, when assessing the power level of races, one could/should compare races with similar class builds. When I compare an Aasimar paladin or WIS/CHA caster to a human, which is the benchmark power level, I personally find them more powerful. Whether it's a trait or feat differential is a discussion.
Bottomline, ARG races and game mechanics are published, so whining over power level is as useful as complaining about gunslinger power levels. They are options to be used or not. Personally, I am a bit disappointed with these new races, because I find the Paizo-published classes and feats to be much more balanced. 'Eye of the beholder,' I guess.
OK I have to say so far I have seen no race that after adding in class is more powerful than any other race after level 10. And that is with me rounding up from Level 8.Short of some of the bigger premades in the back of the book...not really...race makes very little difference (short of movement speeds) at that point...
That was my point.
@Jubal hate to break it to you but it was the core race dwarf & elf that held the power up to level 8. NOT any new races. The next powerful one was humans. of course I was basing this on their overall ability usefulness under a wild campaign with no theme and encountering general monsters in a random fashion.
And it isn't optimized builds that pick race after class. It is Min-Max builds (yes there is a difference). In fact Min-Max builds pick race and class after stats. Optimized pick Race and Class together for synergy then roll stats. But we are talking <5% of players out there. Most play a character they like.
And it isn't optimized builds that pick race after class. It is Min-Max builds (yes there is a difference). In fact Min-Max builds pick race and class after stats. Optimized pick Race and Class together for synergy then roll stats. But we are talking <5% of players out there. Most play a character they like.
Thank you, no. I won't engage on any discussion describing or judging builds that "optimize," "Min-Max," or what "most play."
We also must agree to disagree about the relative power level of elf, dwarf and human.
cheers
Honestly? I have seen players look at taking an Aasimar before the ARG came out. Each and every time they rejected it in favor of a Core race. It simply isnt worth the +2Wis/Cha. The ARG hasn't changed this although some of the Aasimar options might be worthwhile.
+2 to two mental stats is not that big a deal.
- Gauss
+2 to two mental stats is not that big a deal.
If one of them was INT, then maybe it'd be more appealing. But as they are, Aasimer make good channelling clerics (an option that these forums seem to consider weak) but are no better, and generally worse, than humans at everything else.
Mighty Squash, thats exactly what I keep hearing too.
- Gauss
Yeah, I guess I can see that. However, what is different between that and a Human with two +2 mental stats? Neither have a bonus feat. Most of the other effects of being an Aasimar will vanish too.
Honestly, I've never liked how reincarnation works anyhow. But, them's the rules.
- Gauss
Well if you are building your character with the idea of being reincarnated......
Aasimar can only be reincarnated in to other Outsider(Native), right?
Reincarnate doesn't change type and only those with the (Native) subtype can be reincarnated so I'd assume that would also limit the result.Sure you might end up with another +2 (probably Dex) out of it, but it would also lose you your range of resistances for probably just one.
For what it is worth the table pretty much follows the old LA buyoff every 5 levels. In essence I think every full 10 RP above the base "10" was in effect an LA adjustment as far as the CR is considered and every 5 levels it goes down one. And while PFRPG didn't want to use LA they have said the Noble Drow does in fact deserve an LA. So much so that they reproduced the noble version abilities with a feat line that requires you to go 11 or so levels to get the majority of the abilities of the race as it was printed.
Iirc if it is 5 or less over an even 10 it is recommended to round down and if it is 6 or higher over then round up.
Fetchlings and Suli. 2 17 RP races aren't too powerful compared to the core races. especially elves, dwarves, and humans. in fact, the Suli is overcharged for elemental assault and fetchlings have selfish spell like abilities that only affect themselves and deal with the plane of shadow.