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Alright, playing a Halfling Ninja/Fighter. Currently I have Mithral Celestial Armor , with protection and natural armor items coming down the pipe. However, I need a way not to get destroyed when the Monk inevitably bumps his AC up to 40 ( Currently at a 36 ). I have combat expertise, and am a two weapon fighter.
That being said, this GM allows alot of homebrew, with items from the Magic Item Compendium allowed as well as anything from the d20pfsrd.
Currently my AC (After the +6 boost from Natural Armor and Protection) will be 33. I would like my AC to sit as close to a 40 as possible before I activate Combat Expertise, and I do plan to get Cautious Fighter to make fighting defensively worthwhile.
Any suggestions?
If you took the Aldori Fighter archetype, you'd have access to Steel Net, which is pretty glorious. Crane Style is a good feat as well. I'm actually sketching out a Crane Style Aldori Halfling with Cautious Fighter and Blundering Defense (the one that gives adj. allies half of your fighting defensively bonus to AC as Luck. I think I can get it to +4 Luck by lvl 7 to allies).
Homebrew gives you options we don't know about though. Just see what the monk does, and monkey do if you can?
Seriously...don't try. The monk is one class that can really haul our a massive AC if he wants too. However, it costs him in the form of offence: if he takes that amulet of natural armour, he can't take an amulet of mighty fists and at higher level that turns flurry of blows into flurry of misses.
What you can do that he can't is crank out the offensive power. Sure, he gets lots of attacks, but you can make yours count for more.
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Get a Wand of Shield and use it with UMD. +4 AC at 15 gp per fight. Takes an action...but still potentially worth it. Especially if you know a fight's coming.
Basically the only option I can see that you aren't using (other than the obvious Ninja stuff, ie: Ki powered invisibility and Mirror Image...which is actually a whole lot better, if an available option, but one I'd assume you've already explored. If not, they can be combined with the Shield idea above).
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun stone. I think there is a wayfinder that ups the defense for it further though I don't have access to that right now to check. There was a good buy back in the 3.5 days: red dragonhide bracers. For an inexpensive price they granted some natural armor if I remember correctly. You could get the defending property on one of your weapons.
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Eh you opted to go 2WF instead of using a shield...thats kind of the trade off you made.
If you are using the custom magic items rule remember that if you pay 50% MORE you can combine magic properties onto one item. So that Amulet of Natural Armor can also include Mighty Fists if you are willing to pay a little extra.
What about taking snake style?
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Buy your cleric a necklace of prayer beads and a lesser metamagic rod of extend in exchange for him casting magic vestments on your armor and shield daily. Should save you money down the road, which you can spend on that ion stone worth +1 ac. You can also get a CL 12 wand of Barkskin and UMD that, for +5 nat armor? (isn't +5 the max, not sure how there is a +6 amulet without hitting the 3.5 epic book)
Oh, definitely exploring it the ki powered invisibility, though that is starting to falter as we get higher in levels. More creatures with Blind Sight, see invisibility, etc. However, the other item I plan to get is an item of Mind Blank, which will at least stop the magic finding option. Definitely considering the wand of shield, and will look up the bracers.
My main reason for wanting to try and keep up with the Monk's AC is so when the GM tries to challenge the monk, I don't get squished for having an AC 20 less than he does.
Out of curiosity, does a shield have to be an off-hand weapon?
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I ask because I have improved Two-Weapon feint. Beautiful feat, especially if you take skill focus: Bluff with it.
Bah. I would just wield the one in my mainhand. >.>;
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Seriously...don't try. The monk is one class that can really haul our a massive AC if he wants too. However, it costs him in the form of offence: if he takes that amulet of natural armour, he can't take an amulet of mighty fists and at higher level that turns flurry of blows into flurry of misses.
To be fair, just getting the Barkskin qinggong power resolves this issue.
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Nope. You can dual wield those suckers and look stupid as heck.Of all the silly weapons, you consider the shield to be one to make you look stupid?
Captain America disagrees with you.
I have no problem with using ONE shield as a weapon and being viable...there is a funny turtle factor that comes into play when you start walking around with 2 strapped to your arms and need someone else to wipe your butt for you.
Seriously...don't try. The monk is one class that can really haul our a massive AC if he wants too. However, it costs him in the form of offence: if he takes that amulet of natural armour, he can't take an amulet of mighty fists and at higher level that turns flurry of blows into flurry of misses.To be fair, just getting the Barkskin qinggong power resolves this issue.
If he's a quingong monk and has time to buff, yes.
My main reason for wanting to try and keep up with the Monk's AC is so when the GM tries to challenge the monk, I don't get squished for having an AC 20 less than he does.
Actually it shouldn't be an issue. The monk may not get hit often but is unlikely to have a huge number of hit points, so the few hits he takes will count a lot. As you go up levels, the AC falls behind the attack bonuses of creatures anyway, so he will certainly take hits. If your DM starts upping the ante just to hit the monk as often as he hits everyone else, this will result in a dead monk.
An example of this occurred last night when our party got jumped by minotaurs. The party paladin took several hits, my monk took one. However, we both lost about 1/3 of our hit points.
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I am well aware of that but that wasn't what was stated...he said he went 2WF.Err... I'm not sure I understand. Going TWF does not exclude using a shield.
You are right it doesn't, but using a shield is a completely different concept because you would really want to pick up the 3 shield bash feats or you would just be a guy using a shield as a weapon instead of a guy with a shield that does damage.
If the monk is 20AC ahead of the other front line fighter then this most likely will cause balance issues. If a monster attacks at +19-20 the monk has an effective HP multiplier of 20 to the fighter's 1.05. The two get equal effective HP multipliers only when the monster's attack bonus is 39 or greater or less than 1.
It would be helpful to know your HP total, the monk's HP total, and your average party level. It is possible, though unlikely, that there is a large enough difference in HP that your survivability can be balanced by the GM's choice of monster (i.e. high damage/low accuracy versus high accuracy/low damage).
It could be that the monk will need to tank and you will need to provide damage, which means you need a way to keep the monsters focused on the monk while you murder them.
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If the monk is 20AC ahead of the other front line fighter then this most likely will cause balance issues. If a monster attacks at +19-20 the monk has an effective HP multiplier of 20 to the fighter's 1.05. The two get equal effective HP multipliers only when the monster's attack bonus is 39 or greater or less than 1.
It would be helpful to know your HP total, the monk's HP total, and your average party level. It is possible, though unlikely, that there is a large enough difference in HP that your survivability can be balanced by the GM's choice of monster (i.e. high damage/low accuracy versus high accuracy/low damage).
It could be that the monk will need to tank and you will need to provide damage, which means you need a way to keep the monsters focused on the monk while you murder them.
The only solution is nerfing the monk...that what these threads are about donchaknow
The only solution is nerfing the monk...that what these threads are about donchaknow
I am honestly confused by this statement. No one is suggesting that the monk should be nerfed in this thread and most other threads that I see are about how bad the monk is...
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The only solution is nerfing the monk...that what these threads are about donchaknowI am honestly confused by this statement. No one is suggesting that the monk should be nerfed in this thread and most other threads that I see are about how bad the monk is...
I don't know why, but everyone comes here when someone else's character is better than theirs at something. They come looking for the one solution to make everyone equal, and living in today's WoW age that solution is always "nerf" them until they are equal.
1) i'm not sure how 'the monk' (your ally?) getting a 40 AC leads to you 'being destroyed'?
if true, that seems to have massive implications for the offensive power of the monk class... is that a death attack?
every attack that is missing the monk because of their AC is one that isn't aimed at you.
even if the enemies somehow learn the monk is harder to hit than you (which would have to be a stark difference, i.e. they never hit the monk, and they rarely miss you), i don't think the net difference in behavior is that signifigant to you... if your OFFENSE isn't signifigant, they are likely to ignore you regardless of your AC (assuming they are aware of relative hit chances vs. your AC, e.g. from observance of many rounds of combat... not applicable to most foes AFAIK).
2) assuming you want to boost AC, given you are a 2WF fighter, look at 2 weapon defense.
it's only +1 shield AC, but that that goes up to +2 when using fighting defensively, which you are considering using w/ combat expertise. stacking another +2 along with other boosts to combat expertise can add up. the following is a house-rule, or at least something not clearly allowed by RAW, but i allow 'situational' funcitionality as a shield (e.g. via 2 weapon defense) to allow an item to count as qualifying for shield enhancements... they just only work when the shield bonus actually comes on-line. that would be at extra cost to stack on top of a normal magical weapon enhancement, but shield bonus is a cheap enhancement, and getting a further +2 or so on top of the +1/+2 from 2 weapon defense is certainly signifigant (and fair IMHO, since you are paying for it, and can only use it when you actually use 2wf).
as somebody else mentioned, the monk's UAS are enhanced by amulet slot just like their natural AC is, so they are paying increased cost to 'merge' those onto one item... which is necessary if their offense is going to be worthy enough to make them worth paying attention to in the first place (see 1)).
3) get miss chance. most often 'cheaper' than pursuing heavy AC, and applies just as well to massive to-hit monsters as to low to-hit touch attack monsters.
The only solution is nerfing the monk...that what these threads are about donchaknowI am honestly confused by this statement. No one is suggesting that the monk should be nerfed in this thread and most other threads that I see are about how bad the monk is...
S A R C A S M
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1) i'm not sure how 'the monk' (your ally?) getting a 40 AC leads to you 'being destroyed'?
if true, that seems to have massive implications for the offensive power of the monk class... is that a death attack?
every attack that is missing the monk because of their AC is one that isn't aimed at you.
even if the enemies somehow learn the monk is harder to hit than you (which would have to be a stark difference, i.e. they never hit the monk, and they rarely miss you), i don't think the net difference in behavior is that signifigant to you... if your OFFENSE isn't signifigant, they are likely to ignore you regardless of your AC (assuming they are aware of relative hit chances vs. your AC, e.g. from observance of many rounds of combat... not applicable to most foes AFAIK).2) assuming you want to boost AC, given you are a 2WF fighter, look at 2 weapon defense.
it's only +1 shield AC, but that that goes up to +2 when using fighting defensively, which you are considering using w/ combat expertise. stacking another +2 along with other boosts to combat expertise can add up. the following is a house-rule, or at least something not clearly allowed by RAW, but i allow 'situational' funcitionality as a shield (e.g. via 2 weapon defense) to allow an item to count as qualifying for shield enhancements... they just only work when the shield bonus actually comes on-line. that would be at extra cost to stack on top of a normal magical weapon enhancement, but shield bonus is a cheap enhancement, and getting a further +2 or so on top of the +1/+2 from 2 weapon defense is certainly signifigant (and fair IMHO, since you are paying for it, and can only use it when you actually use 2wf).as somebody else mentioned, the monk's UAS are enhanced by amulet slot just like their natural AC is, so they are paying increased cost to 'merge' those onto one item... which is necessary if their offense is going to be worthy enough to make them worth paying attention to in the first place (see 1)).
3) get miss chance. most often...
Or put defending on your weapon.
If the monk is 20AC ahead of the other front line fighter then this most likely will cause balance issues. If a monster attacks at +19-20 the monk has an effective HP multiplier of 20 to the fighter's 1.05. The two get equal effective HP multipliers only when the monster's attack bonus is 39 or greater or less than 1.
Except that was hyperbole, the ninja/fighter is at 33, the monk at 36 (presumably 40 when expending ki). As the monk cannot expend a ki-point every round (you just don't have the ki) that means 36 most of the time, which only makes the monk 15% less likely to be hit, or 30% less likely when he can afford to spend ki.
It would be helpful to know your HP total, the monk's HP total, and your average party level. It is possible, though unlikely, that there is a large enough difference in HP that your survivability can be balanced by the GM's choice of monster (i.e. high damage/low accuracy versus high accuracy/low damage).
This is true, but against a general spread of monsters it tends to average out.
It could be that the monk will need to tank and you will need to provide damage, which means you need a way to keep the monsters focused on the monk while you murder them.
Er...monk's tank? Generally not easily done. Quite simply, monks can't hit often enough or hard enough to get enemies to pay them that much attention. Think of them more like an armoured reconnaissance vehicle: they are hard to hit, but when you hit them you hurt. They go fast, but they can't do much to hurt a real tank.
+1 Dabbler, the actual AC spread isn't really enough to be starkly obvious to even most opponents who are observing, the difference isn't enough to outweight the normal variance from dice... thus, there's no impediment to him playing his character as-is, he gets hit as much as he would normally per his AC, but the monk having a higher AC doesn't really affect him that much.
If the monk is 20AC ahead of the other front line fighter then this most likely will cause balance issues. If a monster attacks at +19-20 the monk has an effective HP multiplier of 20 to the fighter's 1.05. The two get equal effective HP multipliers only when the monster's attack bonus is 39 or greater or less than 1.Except that was hyperbole, the ninja/fighter is at 33, the monk at 36 (presumably 40 when expending ki). As the monk cannot expend a ki-point every round (you just don't have the ki) that means 36 most of the time, which only makes the monk 15% less likely to be hit, or 30% less likely when he can afford to spend ki.
Grrr, hyperbolic numbers in a thread about balancing numbers is not appreciated (even though it is common). A difference of 3 AC is very easy to work with, a difference of 20 is almost impossible. I agree there is no actual problem here.
It would be helpful to know your HP total, the monk's HP total, and your average party level. It is possible, though unlikely, that there is a large enough difference in HP that your survivability can be balanced by the GM's choice of monster (i.e. high damage/low accuracy versus high accuracy/low damage).This is true, but against a general spread of monsters it tends to average out.
It may or may not average out, if the AC's wer actually 20 points apart I would expect the two PC's to have pretty different survivability even against a spread of monsters. For a 3 AC spread you are absolutely right.
It could be that the monk will need to tank and you will need to provide damage, which means you need a way to keep the monsters focused on the monk while you murder them.Er...monk's tank? Generally not easily done. Quite simply, monks can't hit often enough or hard enough to get enemies to pay them that much attention. Think of them more like an armoured reconnaissance vehicle: they are hard to hit, but when you hit them you hurt. They go fast, but they can't do much to hurt a real tank.
PF has few "aggro" mechanics, so who the monsters attack varies from table to table. If monk's AC were 20 points higher than the next guy he would probably be a very good tank, assuming he can get aggro.
It's getting the aggro that's the thing. The Antagonize feat is just so much cheese I think a lot of GM's ban it, and if they don't ban it they use it which really highlights how bad it is as it blows your tactics out of the water.
Best kind of build for this would be to aim at Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes and Combat Patrol. That way you can tie down a large area around you with maneuvers (trip them as they come in, disarm when they try and get up, hit them in between times) so that them targeting you doesn't matter.
Antagonize isn't such a bad idea for a feat, but it is implemented poorly.
Antagonize isn't such a bad idea for a feat, but it is implemented poorly.
Implemented appallingly I would say, and I am not so sure the concept was that clever. Without magic you can affect people with Intimidate and Diplomacy skills, but - and here is the important bit - PC's can opt not to be effected, and the DM can choose if NPCs are affected or not. So how, exactly, do you get somebody to attack you? The fact is that you can attempt to sway them to do so, but the only surefire way is to hit them first.
A feat that allows you to 'mark' somebody (and I use sense of the word used in a game of soccer) is much preferable, allowing you to intercept somebody if they try and get past you other than with an AoO. That would allow a 'tank' to block anyone trying to get past him, forcing them to attempt an overrun or acrobatics check to do so.
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If he's a quingong monk and has time to buff, yes.
Come on, every monk today is qinggong, especially with experimented players. It's easy to find one dumb power not fitting the character to trade for barkskin.
A 10 mn/level buff is not gonna take by surprise cautious players ; and at the very worst, get Quicken Spell-like Ability at level 13 and get yourself a swift action, 1 Ki point, 10 min/level long +5 natural armor enhancement.
Ah. Sorry, its a 36 now, 40 when he pops his Ki point and 44 when he pops air devotion, 47 if fighting defensively.
This is my problem. XP
Ah. Sorry, its a 36 now, 40 when he pops his Ki point and 44 when he pops air devotion, 47 if fighting defensively.
This is my problem. XP
Why is this your problem? Are you trying to hit the monk with your weapon?
If this is anyone's problem, wouldn't it be the GM's problem?
If he's a quingong monk and has time to buff, yes.Come on, every monk today is qinggong, especially with experimented players.
I beg to differ. Many monks are soheis, zen archers or martial artists. Hell, I am running a core monk in a game! So 'every monk' really means 'every monk I play' not 'every monk everybody plays' which really doesn't count for much.
Ah. Sorry, its a 36 now, 40 when he pops his Ki point and 44 when he pops air devotion, 47 if fighting defensively.
This is my problem. XP
What problem?
Ki point - he can't spend them every turn in combat, he'll run out eventually.
Air devotion - not familiar with this, where is it from?
Fighting Defensively - reduces his already bad chances to hit. He fights defensively and he won't be hitting much.
Why would your DM waste time trying to hit him when he can just ignore him? You are the guy who dishes out the damage, after all, so you are the primary threat.
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I beg to differ. Many monks are soheis, zen archers or martial artists. Hell, I am running a core monk in a game! So 'every monk' really means 'every monk I play' not 'every monk everybody plays' which really doesn't count for much.
These monks have traditionally less AC than what it accessible to a qinggong monk as a compensation. Thus, you don't have to keep up with their AC as the OP wishes to do. Zen archer and soheis don't even need to improve their unarmed strikes.
We are talking about the monk's ability to improve his AC, which simply doesn't exist anymore unless you are explicitely using a pure core monk or a martial artist.Just because YOU play said core monk does not remove the system's ability to fix this amulet slot issue with a qinggong power.
If he's a quingong monk and has time to buff, yes.Come on, every monk today is qinggong, especially with experimented players.I beg to differ. Many monks are soheis, zen archers or martial artists. Hell, I am running a core monk in a game! So 'every monk' really means 'every monk I play' not 'every monk everybody plays' which really doesn't count for much.
Ah. Sorry, its a 36 now, 40 when he pops his Ki point and 44 when he pops air devotion, 47 if fighting defensively.
This is my problem. XP
Air devotion - not familiar with this, where is it from?
Fighting Defensively - reduces his already bad chances to hit. He fights defensively and he won't be hitting much.
Air devotion adds a sacred bonus to AC for a 1 minute (1/day or 1/ per channel/turn undead if he has that). Starts at +1 increases slowly till +6 at level 20.
When he fights defensively, he will be 8 below the monk if he gets no new magic items.
Why would your DM waste time trying to hit him when he can just ignore him? You are the guy who dishes out the damage, after all, so you are the primary threat.
Some DMs have big egos. They feel they should be able to hit every player so they target the highest AC character.
He is therefore 4 or 8 AC below the monk.I feel Displacement or other miss chances are more valuable than attmpting to match AC.