Chelaxian diplomancer?


Advice


Hi all you saw needful things right? well how would you create a young Tiefling max von syndow with those kinds of abilities?

read a posting about a diplomancer type character on this thread...

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3npn?Bard-Optimization#1

debating between summoner (to summon a succubus like assistant, very high CHA/skills in bluff dip etc. for aid) or just go for bard (maybe a few dips in summoner for the.. ahhem... assistant)

Didnt know if there was some kind of charm build that would work better...

Is there a way to summon or create items that this character could sell or trade?

I figured I'd make him Chilaxian, worshiper of Asmodeus, didnt know if there was a cleric build that could benifit this...

any advice would be appreciated..

side note: in another campaign we had a characer like this meet our party and give us a device that if we were ever in a dire situation and needed some help would summon him to us, he would save us in exchage for signing a little contract, we did it and it lead to a 2 yr long campaign trying to fufill the contract, but it sure was an awesome hook... what item could do that same thing in PF maybe with a secondary group teleport item? and is there anything that could put an area into time stasis while the group discussed this? I'm sorta thinking he teleports in when the deathtrap is filling with sand the characters cant stop, pops the stasis, offers the contract and lets the PC's discuss it, then if they agree teleports them all out...

Grand Lodge

"Chillax dude"

Chellish or Chellaxian. There is also another way of saying it that I forget about.

Is this for Pathfinder society? Or home campaign?

Diplomacy is hard for Tieflings - Firstly they get a minus to Charisma and secondly, Tieflings are 2nd class citizens (if citizens at all) in Cheliax. Think half caste African-American in 1860's America.

Bard is a way to boost that but you'll suffer in the inital build due to the charisma hit. Sorcerers can avoid that but not bards.

Grand Lodge

There are alternate Tieflings with a bonus to charisma.

See them here.


humm ok Dump the Tiefling... anything else?

what magic items could boost this? remember I'm going really more for con-man than bard...


baalbamoth wrote:

humm ok Dump the Tiefling... anything else?

what magic items could boost this? remember I'm going really more for con-man than bard...

Oni spawn seem pretty fitting... this was also good...

•Beguiling Liar Many tieflings find that the best way to get along in the world is to tell others what they want to hear. These tieflings' practice of telling habitual falsehoods grants them a +4 racial bonus on Bluff checks to convince an opponent that what they are saying is true when they tell a lie. This racial trait replaces skilled.

Grand Lodge

Tiefling is still good, if you choose one of the alternate Tieflings.

Shadow Lodge

A mindchemist alchemist can be a pretty nice diplomancer as well, but it lacks mind-affecting spells that augment that role. Naturally the 3.5 counterpart has gone with the wind, but a strong diplomat character can still dominate socially. Bard is a prime candidate with their buffs and social charms, such as charm person.

If you are going bard or I'd like to actually suggest a gnome instead of a tiefling or human. Gift of Tongues, +1 save DCs to language-dependent spells, racial stat bonus to charisma and being of a race that does not automatically scream "slave" or "servitor class" makes for a good diplomancer. A halfling might be even better(+2 dexterity, various racial traits, etc) if it weren't for the fact that they are a kept as slaves in Cheliax.

Then there's of course human. They are a pretty good choice if you are going for a certain feat combo. Half-Elves can take the Integrated racial ability, which can be pretty powerful.

Just some general thoughts.


could halfling luck effect bluff checks? (and whos to say the tiefling soul isnt just inhabiting the halfling body or whatever)


If you are going for a con-man type you might want to look at the Rakshasa sorcerer bloodline. Their first level power is +5 to bluff checks 3/day +cha mod.

Silver Tongue(Su): At 1st level, you can draw upon your outsider heritage to spin amazingly convincing lies. Activating this ability is a swift action. You gain a +5 bonus on one Bluff check made to convince another of the truth of your words (similar to using glibness). If a magical effect is used against you that would detect your lies or force you to speak the truth, the user of the effect must succeed on a caster level check (DC 10 + your sorcerer level) to succeed. Failure means the effect does not detect your lies or force you to speak only the truth. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.


baalbamoth wrote:

Hi all you saw needful things right? well how would you create a young Tiefling max von syndow with those kinds of abilities?

read a posting about a diplomancer type character on this thread...

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3npn?Bard-Optimization#1

debating between summoner (to summon a succubus like assistant, very high CHA/skills in bluff dip etc. for aid) or just go for bard (maybe a few dips in summoner for the.. ahhem... assistant)

I think bard is a pretty cool guy. eh diplomances monsters and doesnt afrad of anything.

That said other choices are good too. But if you do go Bard, remember Versatile Performance so you don't dump too many skill points into a skill you'll be substituting Perform for anyhow.

Quote:
what item could do that same thing in PF maybe with a secondary group teleport item?
That dude used the Refuge spell.
Quote:
and is there anything that could put an area into time stasis while the group discussed this? I'm sorta thinking he teleports in when the deathtrap is filling with sand the characters cant stop, pops the stasis, offers the contract and lets the PC's discuss it, then if they agree teleports them all out...

That's just Teleporting (to get in) and Teleport Circle (to get out with the group). If you'er thinking of having a PC do something like *this* there is no spell or item that would allow a time stop which permits others to talk/act. They'd just have to agree (or not) to the contract while sand ran up.

"Like sands through the hourglass, those were the days of their lives."


oooh Rakshasa... thats nice... but a question.. would that add with the Tiefling liar trait? +9 just from racial feats would be pretty awesome...

Porphy- I think I remember in 2.0 they had a bard con-man kit, subbing lies for musical perform... how would that work in PF or would I have to pick up a gutar everytime I wanted to trick somebody into signing a contract or buying a cursed magic item?

and isnt there something like a pocket dimention he could create where time passed more slowly? maybe take the characters in there and if they didnt agree kick em back out into the world... heck maybe even say the pocket dimention looks exactly like the room they were in with the sand slowly pouring out etc?


You don't need a guitar or even to sing to perform; Oratory is a Performance skill. Plus, the ruling on Versatile Performance is you're substituting your perform ranks into the skill in question (say, Diplomacy or Bluff) - but you're still Diploing and Bluffing, you're not actually performing (so, for example, no you don't need to be banging on a drum doing Perform [Percussion] when using Versatile Performance to Handle Animal). But if you're using Perform to Facinate and Suggest to people, you can use Performance (oratory) for it if you don't want to have your Bard singing or strumming a guitar.

You could look over the Bard Archetypes but none of them are really quite the same as Con-Man and I didn't find any I liked better than straight-up Bard.

Edit: Perform (Acting) is also good "not singing or using an instrument" type of performance. I DK why I spaced on that one at first, it's a common way of accomplishing that stuff. Acting is perfect for a con-man/grifter. You can watch "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" and "Grifters" for inspiration.


Magic-wise, I'd suggest looking at feats that hide spellcasting. Secret Signs is nice, for instance. You don't need to become a real Enchanter, but do copy a few tricks from their book.


Does your DM allow monstrous races under the "Don't f$$+ up my campaign and you can play it" paragraph of rule 0?


jeeze its been a long time... I forgot how frigging awesome those ole 2e class books were, just looking through this you get 20 great ideas for characters,I definatly liked the kit system better than anything else, lots and lots of flavor to the character without much change in the rules, just look at the below, special benifits: none special rules:none... ahh the good old days...

Swindler
Description: This is the master of deception; while burglars and pickpockets profit through stealth, and bandits and thugs garner their earnings through force, the Swindler relies on his wits.
Other thieves take their booty; the Swindler cons his victim into giving it freely.

A minimum Charisma of 12 is required of a thief to take this kit.
Role: There are numerous names for the Swindler-confidence artist, con man, mountebank,quack, etc.-and the scams he employs are even greater in number.

Each con artist is unique, and develops his own mode of operation. One will specialize in selling bogus items, like medicines; while another may prepare long, elaborate scams to net the wealth of the affluent.
Swindlers must either operate in a large city, where there are many potential victims (and even then they usually target visitors to the city, especially foreigners); or they must be wanderers, ready to move on to a new place when they've made too many enemies or toomuch of the local populous has gotten wise to their devices.

For this and other reasons, Swindlers do not usually join thieves' guilds on a permanent basis. Out of wise deference to the "local boys," however, a Swindler that begins to operate in guild territory will make friendly overtures to it, and perhaps offer a share in his take. A most
daring Swindler may even try to con the guild . . .

Secondary Skills: Any. Most often Gambler or Trader/Barterer.
Weapon Proficiencies: The Swindler is permitted the normal range of weapons open to thieves.

Nonweapon Proficiencies: Required: Fast-talking. Recommended: Alertness, Appraising,
Artistic Ability, Dancing, Disguise, Etiquette, Forgery, Fortune Telling, Gaming, Local History, Observation, Singing, Ventriloquism.

Skill Progression: The thieves' skills of a Swindler usually are used in preparation for a con. It is often handy for the Swindler to do some secret scouting, for instance, to observe his victim's habits. For all of this, the stealth skills (move silently, etc.) are invaluable. Reading languages is also of more use to the Swindler than to thieves of many other kits.

Equipment: A Swindler may use special equipment as props for his scams (e.g., tarot cards for a sham fortune teller; pen, ink and paper for forgery; and so forth), but the specific needs vary among characters, according to their plans and objectives.

Special Benefits: None.
Special Hindrances: None.
Races: Half-elves make particularly good Swindlers. Other demi-humans may be Swindlers as well, though they are not found as frequently.

Now off to find the kit I was really looking for charlatan...

oh and about races... I'm not really sure, he allowed a lizardfolk before the ARG came out so yeah he probably does...


Below is the Charlatan kit from 2.0 for bard I especially like the swindling rules where your using pick pockets to "steal" small amounts of money by talking people out of the full amount of services or items your buying like staying at an inn or buying minor non-magic items. I'm thinking I'll convert and write up some rules for this for PF.

Charlatan

Specialty: Trickster/Con Artist.

Qualifications: Standard ability scores. Charlatans live off the fat of the land, bending all the rules and hopping through loopholes in the law. It is completely against the personality of the Charlatan to be lawful. Charlatans are limited to NG, N, NE, or CN alignments. Gnomes may become Charlatans and advance up to 6th level.

Introduction: My real name is Tiel, but most of the fools who fall into my traps call me Tori. I know exactly how to get what I want from others. Especially those who are overconfident, weak, or emotional.
People often believe what they want to believe, and I take advantage of this. I know how to swindle these simple-minded fools and make them feel good about it. I have many disguises with which to cloak my activities. My favorite is that of a cleric of Tyr. Of course, none of my ruses has ever been uncovered, and it's a good thing.
There's a saying: "There are two types of Charlatans-those who are good and those who are dead."

I usually don't stay in one place for very long; it's not safe. By the time the poor fool I've tricked has figured out what happened, I'm long gone. Once, I agreed to watch over the castle of a good "friend," the rapacious Sir John of Canters, while he went off on a quest. I sold the castle and made off with all the loot before he returned. For now, I am performing sleight-of-hand tricks for mere pocket coins until I meet another "friend." Perhaps tomorrow I will be a powerful mage or a war
hero.

I thrive in cities and towns where victims are plentiful and easy to manipulate. Lately, I have been considering the possibility of posing as a thief. Why? So I can accompany a party of adventures in a quest and collect my "share" of the treasure.

Description: Charlatans are masters at manipulating people. Using their high Intelligence and understanding of human nature, Charlatans prey upon the foolish, overconfident, and greedy people around them.

Charlatans often seem bold and boisterous, but they always maintain self-control. The profession of swindling others and making them feel good about it is an age-old practice and none are better at it than Charlatans.

The Charlatan's profession has its downside, too. When a Charlatan's facade is pierced, he is in grave danger, for no one likes to be conned. Then the Charlatan's quick feet may serve him better than his quick wit.

Role: Charlatans are wanderers. They go from town to town, switching from one identity to another, always a step ahead of the last person they swindled. In large cities, Charlatans may be able to live out most of their lives moving from one quarter to the next.

When times are tough and no great con comes to mind, Charlatans sometimes perform sleight-of-hand tricks just to get by. Charlatans also have a knack for acquiring jobs that allow them to bluff their way through each day.

Charlatans can sometimes be found masquerading as priests, healers, sages, diplomats, powerful mages, and retired heroes.

As player characters, Charlatans are most useful in town-based campaigns or when traveling across inhabited country. Their talents often support the entire party with food, shelter, and minor luxuries. Unfortunately, many of their talents have little use when
exploring ruins or wilderness areas. However, they often pose as wizards, warriors, thieves, and sometimes even priests. As NPCs, Charlatans really come into their own.

Secondary Skills: Charlatans can have any secondary skill. However, well over half of all Charlatans are gamblers, jewelers, or limner/painters, for these skills help fill their coin purses in lean times.

Weapon Proficiencies: Charlatans must take dagger, short sword, or long sword as one of their initial weapon proficiencies, as these weapons are used in so many roles that they shouldn't be passed over. At least every second weapon proficiency gained must be one of these three until they are all selected.

A Charlatan selects the rest of his weapons to fill the needs of various roles. For example, if Charlatan decides to masquerade as a powerful warrior, he arms himself with a heavy combat weapon (a two-handed sword, polearm, long bow, or a battle axe) and spends a proficiency slot learning it. This way he can appear to be a skilled and tough fighter. The Charlatan always uses his proficient weapon in dire situations. If an encounter is less threatening, the Charlatan uses one of the other weapons so as to appear to be a well-rounded fighter (the -3 non-proficiency penalty is easier to hide when
attacking monsters with poor Armor Classes).

Nonweapon Proficiencies: Bonuses: Acting, Disguise, Forgery, Gaming. Suggested: Appraising, Astrology, Healing, Herbalism, Juggling, Reading Lips, Religion, Rope Use, Singing, Ventriloquism.

Armor/Equipment: A Charlatan is allowed to wear any type of armor if a role requires it. Thus, a Charlatan masquerading as a paladin can wear plate mail and carry a shield. But a Charlatan is a finesse character; heavy, bulky armor goes against the grain of his personality. No Charlatan will maintain a role that requires him to wear non-bard
armor for more than a few weeks.

Special Benefits:
Charm: Charlatans are aware of their unique charm and flair. They have learned to use this gift to sway the reactions of others. However, such charm must be carefully tailored to a specific audience. Charlatans can affect only a small group of people, no larger in number than their current level.

To be charmed, a group must be in average to high spirits. (You can't charm a merchant who's just been robbed.) The Charlatan must mingle among the intended group and chat for at least 1d10 rounds. After this time, those in the group roll a saving throw vs. paralyzation with a penalty of -1 per three levels of the Charlatan. Those who succeed
are unimpressed with the Charlatan and may even find him to be an irritation. If they succeed on a natural 20, they see through the Charlatan's facade. Those who fail have been caught up in the Charlatan's tales and find him to be a most remarkable person. The effects of the charm are identical to the wizard spell of the same
name. However, it is not magical in any way, and future saving throws are not made based on Intelligence and time. Rather, every time the Charlatan stresses the relationshipby calling for a favor, or requesting delicate information-the paralyzation saving throw is
rerolled. The DM can give bonuses or penalties depending on how much stress the request puts on the relationship.

Masquerade: The ability of masquerading requires much study, time, and effort on the part of the Charlatan. This enables a Charlatan to appear to have a specific skill. This is not a disguise, as the proficiency of that name. Rather, it is the ability to appear proficient at the chosen skill. The character picks up the language ('buzz words'),professional mannerisms, and general techniques to help him in his endeavor.

Unlike the True Bard, the Charlatan only appears to be a jack-of-all trades. He does not study skills to use them, but for the sake of conning others into believing he has them. The use of this ability is resolved by the DM in much the same manner as an illusion spell.

If the performance is not overly suspicious and the characters watching have no reason to disbelieve the bard's ability, then the attempt appears genuine. Otherwise, a saving throw vs. paralyzation is rolled with a -1 penalty per three levels of the Charlatan. Those who succeed realize that the Charlatan is a fraud.

A Charlatan can use his masquerade ability to fake any nonweapon proficiency or secondary skill. Furthermore, if the Charlatan rolls a successful Intelligence check with a -10 penalty, he actually functions as if he really knows the skill or proficiency (for this one check only). Thus, a Charlatan can actually succeed just enough to keep skeptics satisfied.

For example, if Tiel is masquerading as a cleric, she can claim to know the healing proficiency even though she doesn't really have it. Unless those she heals are suspicious, they will believe that the attempts are genuine (if they are suspicious, roll as described two paragraphs prior to this one). First Tiel's player rolls an Intelligence check with a -10
penalty. If that roll succeeds, she next rolls a healing proficiency check. If this check also succeeds, the patient is healed of 1d3 points of damage. If the Intelligence check fails, everyone watching rolls a saving throw vs. paralyzation (with a -1 penalty per three levels of the Charlatan) to notice that the Charlatan is a fraud. If the Intelligence check succeeds but the healing check fails, the patient and onlookers notice only that a valid attempt was made but it just didn't help.

Each time Tiel masquerades as a healer, an Intelligence check is rolled with a -10 penalty. If the check succeeds, a successful healing proficiency check will actually heal 1d3 points of damage.

Detect Fakery: Because Charlatans are so skilled at faking their personalities, lying, and concealing their feelings and reactions, they can see right through false personae and verbal trickery when others attempt them. As the old saying goes, "You can't con a con man." Any time a Charlatan player requests it, he can try to determine if someone is lying, operating under false pretenses (including a masquerade), or swindling him. A Charisma check is rolled. Success means the Charlatan realizes the deception. Furthermore, a Charisma check with a -10 penalty enables the Charlatan to determine a person's alignment. This requires that the Charlatan speak with and observe the individual for 1d10 rounds.

Swindling: Major cons, such as duping a king into believing that you are a highly respected sage, drawing him into your inner confidence, and then relieving him of the crown jewels, should be done only through role-playing. However, Charlatans hone such skills by constantly performing minor swindles and tricks. These are far too numerous
and insignificant to role-play every time. Swindling covers this aspect of a Charlatan's skill repertoire.

By performing various cons, sleight-of-hand, and other deceptions, a Charlatan is often able to walk away from a merchant with far more than a fair deal. The same is true of any common outlay of coins, such as buying meals at a tavern, paying for a room at an inn, and purchasing ordinary items. In instances like these, the Charlatan makes a pick
pockets roll. If successful, the cost of the item is reduced to the percentage rolled; this is what the Charlatan pays. If the roll fails by more than the Charlatan's Charisma, the con is seen through. Swindle rolls above 95 are always detected by the victim.

For example, Tiel tries to swindle a barkeeper for a 10-gp glass of imported wine (Tiel has only six gold coins left). Tiel's pick pockets roll is a 53 and she has a Charisma of 16. She rolls a 25 and swindles her way into paying only two gold and one electrum for the wine (25% of the original cost). If she had rolled a 54-69 the barkeeper would
have noticed the error and politely requested the remainder of the money. On a 70 or above the barkeeper would not only have noticed the error, but he would have realized that Tiel tried to swindle him (with unpleasant consequences for Tiel).

Swindling rolls should not be used for amounts in excess of 10 gp per level of the Charlatan. Such grand swindles require full role-playing.

Special Hindrances: None.


I loved the Charlatan template; I never had the chance to play one but I used it as DM :p

Works great on PCs, even, as a hook - especially if you target their Henchies for cons and crap to rope 'em in.


I'll probably put something in the homebrew section, how would swindle work in PF, does not really make sense to make it based of slight of hand. I would think bluff, maybe if you make your roll by 5+ the mark does not get angry after, for every 2 you make your roll by lower price by 10% (?) (so if you make your roll by 20 its free) maybe it would only work on items or groups of items of under 100 gp maybe make it work on up to 1000 GP for +5 dc?

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