Please help. one player has figured out within the rules I set to make it almost impossible for me to send anything at the party that is within there level to defeat. if I send a creature or puzzle or group this one player is so powerful the thing wouldn't even be a threat. frankly she doesn't even need the rest of the party. so I have set things up to make it more difficult on her to take her down to the rest of the parties level so to speak. this is upsetting the player. problems are as follows.
wizards ability to teleport out of any danger
intelligence so high character can beat any dc out there for knowledge even more then the bard
and an ac so high I almost need to send a god to be able to hit
my solutions
a cave set up with Forbidance
augmented dcs on spells and what not to make it a challenge
and creatures with very high base attack bonuses.
the complaint. "why are you only targeting me?"
my thoughts is I have to or should I just put my game back down to regular rules and let her cake walk everything?
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You need to examin his characte3r and determin why hes so strong. Assuming it isnt a WBL issue or inclusion of 3.5 feats interacting poorly with new PF stuff or some other Anomally then i suggest talking to him.
Setting up stuff to specifically counter a player never works and leads to unhappy players.
The only thing i can add to the specific situation is a quest item tha tneeds to go from point A to b but cannot be teleported would solve teleport issues.
changes are monsters with better strategies and correct decision making can bring things on track again.
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Sounds like you need to talk with the player and figure out a compromise. Neither of you seem to really be enjoying the current situation, and probably won't as long as that single character is able be to that dominating; chances are the other players aren't having that much fun either. I would say that the player needs to either tone down the character, make a new one that fits better with the party, or work with the other players up to bring their characters up to the wizard's level of optimization. Which solution is most appropriate is something that only your group can decide, but somehow you need to even the party out, otherwise you'll go crazy trying to deal with that level of imbalance.
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Yeah...um...don't counter him directly. That's dumb and will only generate animosity.
What you do is tailor the encounters so it's not about him. Tailor the struggle to be something more than kill or be killed. Being an all powerful kill machine doesn't mean jack if the goal was to save the princess before time ran out and the bad guys delayed you just long enough for her to die. Make the goal one with a time limit or an obtainable objective, one where his power will help, but no more than anyone else. That way, it's not about "beating the enemy with absolute power" but about beating the clock, or succeeding at the objective.
I've been making min/maxed/cheesed PCs feel worthless this way for years. It's easy.
How did a Wizard get AC so high nothing can hit it? I know the Wizard can get a lot of defensive buffs that make it hard to his (displacement, mirror image etc) but they aren't usually increasing AC super high.
If necessary, put the Wizard up against another Wizard, and have the enemy cast Feeblemind. Either that, or target things against the party that the Wizard isn't 'awesome' against. Like Fortitude or Reflex saves.
Wizards can be fairly easy to counter, you just need another Wizard. Thing like Acid Pit (it creates an extradimensional pit, and you can't teleport across planar boundries, so no teleporting out), Stinking Cloud, Burning Gaze (which forces Concentration checks to cast spells and could set any flammable objects the Wizard carries on fire) or Blindness/Deafness can all seriously hamper a caster.
But really, if you can, get his character sheet on here so we can audit it and see if it's even legal.
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I will second what Mojorat, Sunshadow, and Ravingdork have said: don't counter this character, it will only create more animosity at the table. Talk to him and to the rest of the table, and figure out how to balance the party. Having said that, powerful wizards are powerful, and once you get to 5+ level spells, they have the ability to end certain encounters in a big hurry. Their trade-off is that they can only do this so many times a day, whereas the fighter can just keep on swinging. Also, as Ravingdork said, try to create encounters that challenge players at something other than DPR.
Please help. one player has figured out within the rules I set
What are the rules you set?
Because a wizard with an AC so high you can't hit him seems strange.But you could use spells that have no save or still have partial effect with a save.
You could use a witches coven as enemies using hexes like evil eye (duration shortened to 1 round with successful save but use of the cackle hex increses the duration by 1 round.
Or just normal aoe spells with reflex half save and stuff like that.
Please help. one player has figured out within the rules I set to make it almost impossible for me to send anything at the party that is within there level to defeat. if I send a creature or puzzle or group this one player is so powerful the thing wouldn't even be a threat. frankly she doesn't even need the rest of the party. so I have set things up to make it more difficult on her to take her down to the rest of the parties level so to speak. this is upsetting the player. problems are as follows.
wizards ability to teleport out of any danger
intelligence so high character can beat any dc out there for knowledge even more then the bard
and an ac so high I almost need to send a god to be able to hitmy solutions
a cave set up with Forbidance
augmented dcs on spells and what not to make it a challenge
and creatures with very high base attack bonuses.the complaint. "why are you only targeting me?"
my thoughts is I have to or should I just put my game back down to regular rules and let her cake walk everything?
1. What level are you playing/GM'ing at?
2. Targeting one person will make them uphappy.3. At a certain level the nature of the game changes.
4. Could you give very specific examples.
5. Wizards normally have crappy AC. If you post his character build here it will help a lot. Something seems to be wrong.
6. What point buy are you using or did you roll?
7. If the bard is not focusing on knowledge checks I can see a wizard passing him, so that might be a part of it also.
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I get the impression you are fairly new at dungeon mastering, though this may be wrong. I suggest keeping to playing at lower levels for a while - the difference between 1st level and 15th isnt like between a basic car and a ferrari, but rather like between a basic car and the TARDIS. Both adventure design and DMing is very different, and it's a much higher risk of losing balance and control.
My suggestion is thus that if you don't know how to solve this in a good way, actually restart characters. At level 1. With slow exp progression.
That way you can all learn the rules and get a feel of each others tactics and capabilities.
Talk to him.
You say "one player has figured out within the rules I set..." What rules did you set? Sometimes, house rules can create some very unexpected results.
Exactly, that's why we are not game designer: tweaking some of the little stuff can be good if done by people who really understand the system, but even those should be VERY careful when introducing major innovations.
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Baal, what we are saying is that nothing is that what is "powergaming" is subjective, and varies from group to group.
As an example, the things I can handle today I could not handle 6 or 7 years ago. That does not mean they were broken or OP, it just means they were not right for my game.
Being antagonistic never really helps. What helps is making sure the house rules work well within the system, making sure everyone is on the same page as far as what is acceptable, and having an open system of communication. <---I have never seen it fail, unless someone was trying to sabotage the game.
I would comment on it, but we would need more information about this character. Usually overpowered characters don't add up, perhaps your houserules are the problem that empowers wizards even more. Basically give us a character and some more information about your campaign so we might be able to help.
Please help. one player has figured out within the rules I set to make it almost impossible for me to send anything at the party that is within there level to defeat. if I send a creature or puzzle or group this one player is so powerful the thing wouldn't even be a threat. frankly she doesn't even need the rest of the party. so I have set things up to make it more difficult on her to take her down to the rest of the parties level so to speak. this is upsetting the player. problems are as follows.
That really depends on what rules you set, can you enlighten us further?
wizards ability to teleport out of any danger
That's a common one. The answer lies in forbidence zones, extra-dimensional spaces, and foes that teleport AFTER you (demons and devils, for example, are great for this). A really nasty one is a redirect on any teleport that drops the characters into jail cells, sans equipment. Cruel, but it makes them think on their feet.
intelligence so high character can beat any dc out there for knowledge even more then the bard
That's impressive, but not impossible. If he throws everything at intelligence as a wizard should he will have a lot of skill ranks and a big boost to knowledge skills.
and an ac so high I almost need to send a god to be able to hit
...er, what? A wizard with super AC? Unless you let him add Int bonus to AC, that shouldn't happen, even with a shedload of permanent spells on him (which one Great Dispel should deal with).
my solutions
a cave set up with Forbidance
Can work but gets old fast. Vary it. Magic dead zones if all else fails.
augmented dcs on spells and what not to make it a challenge
Why do you need to ramp up DCs, has he got super-saves too? Just target the ones he is weak on, Fort and Reflex.
and creatures with very high base attack bonuses.
Their AC shouldn't be that high, try throwing de-buffs instead.
the complaint. "why are you only targeting me?"
"Because you are the most powerful character in the party by far, have a huge reputation, and your enemies know it." This is a perfectly reasonable in-game justification.
my thoughts is I have to or should I just put my game back down to regular rules and let her cake walk everything?
Try removing the rules you set that she exploited as well, at a guess, and problem could be solved.
Custom build encounters
In general, all monsters have terrible feat and skill selection.
For example, Dire Bats get Alertness and, I believe, Stealthy for feats.
Really?
How about Flyby Attack and maybe some feat that allows easy grab and drops?
Take a dragon and rebuild it from the ground up and you can make it about twice as hard.
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Remember the old disenchanter from 3.5? And 3.0? And 2nd edition? And 1st edition? Hehehehe.
The only thing more threatening to an arcane caster than one of them is a herd. Use them.
Master Arminas
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wizards ability to teleport out of any danger
intelligence so high character can beat any dc out there for knowledge even more then the bard
and an ac so high I almost need to send a god to be able to hit
1) Teleport and letting them run away is fine, if they do this to take an encounter on piecemeal style just add reinforcements every time they leave and come back, its perfectly reasonable if they regroup then the enemy should regroup.
Also if you create situations where they have to accomplish a task not just kill stuff if they leave before the tasks is done they've failed
2) High INT my first question is how high ? if they're already rocking +6 INT headband and are only mid levels that's a gear issue as a GM you can restrict such things.
But there's a lovely spell called feeblemind, its level appropriate, hit the wizard and make him stupid ;). you can also throw ability draining creatures at them to reduce high stats if you want to soften them up for a big encounter
3) High AC again how high ? first through hit them with touch attacks.
Instead of scratching you head at how awesome your players are, get their sheets learn why they work so well and don't counter them through the same combo at them so teleporting creatures, high DC effects and high AC critters , modify monsters to do this, or through humanoid with characters levels and the same sweet abilities at them. A taste of their own medicine will sober them up.
How does a GM deal with AM BARBARIAN ? simple throws 2 NPC AM BARBARIANS at him :P Fire with Fire ;)
Last thing
you job as the GM is to make things fun, which mean provide challenges don't feel the need to stick to level appropriate monsters to do that if they can handle high level stuff so be it.
Custom build encounters
In general, all monsters have terrible feat and skill selection.
For example, Dire Bats get Alertness and, I believe, Stealthy for feats.
Really?
How about Flyby Attack and maybe some feat that allows easy grab and drops?
Take a dragon and rebuild it from the ground up and you can make it about twice as hard.
Please don't, or at least know that you are messing with the CR. CR are assigned on the basis of the capabilities of the monsters, not on their "potential". An optimized monster is not the same as a generic monster just because they get the same stat array, the same save/attack progression and the same number of feats...
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Please don't, or at least know that you are messing with the CR. CR are assigned on the basis of the capabilities of the monsters, not on their "potential". An optimized monster is not the same as a generic monster just because they get the same stat array, the same save/attack progression and the same number of feats...Custom build encounters
In general, all monsters have terrible feat and skill selection.
For example, Dire Bats get Alertness and, I believe, Stealthy for feats.
Really?
How about Flyby Attack and maybe some feat that allows easy grab and drops?
Take a dragon and rebuild it from the ground up and you can make it about twice as hard.
CR, in general, isn't a great way to determine challenge. Some parties have better players, some GMs are better strategists. What one GM can do with a stock creature could be consider an EL 2 or 3 higher than another GM who's not quite as good.
It's better to get an idea of what your party can handle and go from there. CR is a good starting point, but some parties can consistently down Encounters 4 or 5 levels above them if the players know what they're doing and build right.
my best advice is don't give the wizard a 15 minute work day.
Instead of running 4-5 encounters by cr run 8-12 a few lvls below it with a big encounter at the end = to cr. This will give the other players a chance to shine (the wizard wont be soo keen to expend all his spells on "trash mobs").
Another bit of advice is to play the monsters a bit more tactically whats stopping your big bads from using scry and die? any arch mage type character should be able to scry and teleport when he pleases (with a contingent spell for if he is incapacitated so a sos into a melee kill wont be the outcome) have the monster harry them and hound them like a wolf pack. not letting them sleep and always striking at their worst moments (thats a good use for a lich imo , heck maybe make it so they unwittingly looted his phylactery so now hes hell bent to get it back).
Let me give an example of Stasiscell's advice. In the module I was using, the 11th-level party was out to stop an evil wizard with a large army, camped out at an old ruin in the wilderness while he was still recruiting more minions. The army scared the party, so they adopted the tactic of harrying the army at the edges and then teleporting away for the rest of the day. Realizing that this would lead to repetitive encounters that would get boring, I asked myself what would the evil wizard do?
The party was having breakfast at their favorite inn in a distant city (still in teleport range), when the inn was invaded by a select commando team teleported in by the team's sorcerer, who used a scroll provided by the evil wizard. The evil wizard had scryed the location and the composition of the party. He carefully selected two members of the team: a grappler to grapple the party's wizard and a true neutral mercenary to battle the party's paladin. The evil wizard had no particular adversaries for the less impressive party members, though he had cast Greater Invisibility on the commando's barbarian.
The commando team was too weak to win the day, because they were selected from an army of minions. But the evil wizard had lots of minions, and the party could expect this every day unless they made themselves undetectable with a Wand of Nondetection or by hiding in a scry-proof location (like the old ruin the evil wizard lived in). Instead, they took the hint and went directly for the evil wizard, invisibly sneaking past his army.
Overpowered wizard? How about an intelligent, flying, at will teleporting, tetori monk, mithral golem with teleport tactician?
... or not
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While many of the suggestions here are excellent for dealing with the wizard in-game, I agree with the group that says to talk to the player. You're playing this game to have fun, and if a majority of your players (and you!) aren't having fun, you need to change the parameters of your game. Keep in mind, however, that the wizard's player is probably playing this way because that's what's fun for her. You'll need to find a happy medium. Figure out what's best for your group.
Personally, if I am GMing an NPC and it gets killed in 1 round, I just have its twin/mate/whatever show up 1 round later. It probably took me an hour or two to stat up the NPC, and I don't want to waste that kind of real time investment.
Ditto with minions. If the party wipes the floor with half a dozen goons, another half a dozen goons walk around the corner the next round.
I've been a player in a campaign where the GM got a little frustrated making complex NPCs that died in one or two rounds, and then surprised the next encounter of the same CR was a really big challenge sometimes. At mid-to-higher CRs, the CR accuracy can get a little swingy.
My advice for the GM with super powerful wizard is to design encounters that don't rely on her strengths. A lot of little minions coming from all directions might work. Let the other PCs shine, and if the wizard REALLY shines, that's OK too. If the rest of the party find it fun and challenging to hit AC 25, use AC 25 opponents. The wizard is going to mop the floor with AC 25 or AC 30 opponents, so don't worry about JUST challenging the wizard. Heck, use AC 20 opponents and the rest of the party can feel as powerful as the wizard. She might self-regulate if she boringly kills everything with super ease.
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wizards ability to teleport out of any dangerThat's a common one. The answer lies in forbidence zones, extra-dimensional spaces, and foes that teleport AFTER you (demons and devils, for example, are great for this).
Neothelids are my personal favourite for this role.
One of the PCs in my group is a monk with a very high AC (he often gets it up to 50, and his touch AC is not a great deal lower). My current dastardly plot to damage him is a pair of alchemists with the delayed bomb discovery, a very high bluff score and the feat that allows you to force opponents to accept objects that you hand them in combat.
Have 2 (assuming your wizard usually has two free hands - if you can trick him into polymorphing into a giant octopus, use 8!) insane derro alchemists walk up to him and hand him a pair of force bombs. Assuming they can make the Bluff DC even if they roll a 1 (and if they can't, rebuild them until they can ...) then it is numerous d4 of force damage for each bomb.
That should scare him a bit, unless he has very high hit points to go with his very high AC, very high saving throw bonuses etc. etc.
Here is the thing, a higher level wizard is very easy to make game-breakingly powerful. In fact, once you hit the teen levels, the wizard has to deliberately hold back, or the rest of the party has to work hard to stay relevant.
Step 1. Look at your house rules, and see if they may be causing the problems. Also, read up on some of the spells or abilities the character has, often players overlook important limits.
Step 2. Take a look at the other characters to make sure that their wealth by level (WBL) is close to the wizard, and that they are propperly equipped for higher level play. Assuming that you are above tenth level, all the players should have access to flight, adamantine/silver/cold iron weapons, ability to deal with incorporeal/invisible enemies, etc. If they are the same as 1st level characters, but with higher numbers, they are not going to be successful in high level play.
Step 3. Tactfully talk to the player, and see if you can work out an agreement about power. Often giving up one or two spells, or asking the wizard to buff other party members will fix things. Sometimes you may have to limit equipment, ability scores, or other things to regain a form of balance.
Step 4. Realize that high level play is a different experience then lower level play. Rather then nerf teleport, set up scenarios where teleport is expected. Move out of the traditional dungeon and into other planes or underwater, flying, etc. Expect one or two enemies to get taken out in 1 round. NEVER use 1 bad guy against the whole party.
Finally, ask yourself if this is the type of game you want to play. There are a lot of people who limit their games to lower levels, and several systems (E6) for avoiding the problems of high level play. The Pathfinder Adventure Paths are well set up to deal with the challenges of high level play, but even they end at around 16th level.
Check over their character to make sure it's legal. Also if you could post it up here we could help you out with determining what is best.
Keep in mind, however, that the wizard's player is probably playing this way because that's what's fun for her. You'll need to find a happy medium. Figure out what's best for your group.
This is specifically why I included the option of having the power player bring everyone else up to their level. Too many people automatically think balance must bring the party to the lowest powered character, but bringing the rest of the party up to the highest level character is also effective with the right group.
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Option A: ask the player to retire their wizard PC.
Option B: wizard gets eaten alive by one of his/her experimental creations, face first. Or tucas first, if you're feeling really mean.
Option C: jilted ex-lover from the character's past shows up with the septuplet of children in tow and effectively forces the wizzy to retire, for obvious reason up to you to decide.
Ask the player to voluntarily lower their power level. Don't threaten them with monsters who arbitrarily want to kill them, instead threaten them with mercenaries contracted to break their things, monsters who are curious about them, devils who plot their demise utilizing waves and waves of minions and tactics, monsters of higher CRs that are merely investigating and want to be left alone, or retreat when they take a significant amount of damage.
thank you all for your advice. First of all I would like to say I did talk to them all and we have come to the conclusion of starting a new game but if any are interested I will answer a few questions. the house rules were simple pathfinder only all classes, core races only, standard rolled stats, and money is based off of profession. I let them sell there services to gain money this got them some cool things and allowed the player to make her own magical items a few items later and taking a level of monk got her an ac above 50 and all stats above 40. I checked the math and yes it is well within the rules to gain stats that high if done right. as for being a new DM I have DMed for only two years my players have played for almost as many years as I have been alive. side note to Ravingdork I am by no means dumb. it is a bit cliche but a good main villain will study and prepare. again thank you all for the help and hope you all have a good day.
AC over 50? AND all stats above 40, is that a hyperbole?
36 is the roughly the high of your best stat. That's assuming a 20 start, +6 item, +5 Book and all points go into that stat.
How his character has over 40 in every stat is not 'within the rules' unless you've got some house rule we don't know about. Also, a Wizard with an AC of 50 is just not possible to the best of my knowledge. You really need to get his character sheet so we can audit it. I just don't think it's possible.
what caius said.
If you want any sort of balance dont use rolled states, use point buy.
But even with all 18s in stats i too would like to know how he got 40+ in all stats.
18 (base)
+6 item
+5 book (or wishes)
+5 level
+2 race
= 36
and that is only to the best stat as he wont get race and level bonus to more than one, so the others really should be capped at 29.
Besides letting players get tons and tons of gold, presumably breaking wbl levels massively, will also make it increasingly hard to give challanging encounters, so my advice there is dont give the players too much gold or loot, and you will find the game not that broke.
the ac 50 is kinda easily explained with the 40 to all stats though.
10 base
+15 dex
+15 wis (monk)
+ 4 (shield spell)
+ 4 mage armor
+ 2 amulet of natural armor
=50
the main question should be wth happened to stats.
I checked the math and yes it is well within the rules to gain stats that high if done right.
How bout you write the math down here for us
what caius said.
If you want any sort of balance dont use rolled states, use point buy.
But even with all 18s in stats i too would like to know how he got 40+ in all stats.
18 (base)
+6 item
+5 book (or wishes)
+5 level
+2 race
= 36and that is only to the best stat as he wont get race and level bonus to more than one, so the others really should be capped at 29.
Besides letting players get tons and tons of gold, presumably breaking wbl levels massively, will also make it increasingly hard to give challanging encounters, so my advice there is dont give the players too much gold or loot, and you will find the game not that broke.
Hmm, I must say, I find your taste in Avatars impeccable. Tis a handsome looking one, most definitely.
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Hmm, I must say, I find your taste in Avatars impeccable. Tis a handsome looking one, most definitely.what caius said.
If you want any sort of balance dont use rolled states, use point buy.
But even with all 18s in stats i too would like to know how he got 40+ in all stats.
18 (base)
+6 item
+5 book (or wishes)
+5 level
+2 race
= 36and that is only to the best stat as he wont get race and level bonus to more than one, so the others really should be capped at 29.
Besides letting players get tons and tons of gold, presumably breaking wbl levels massively, will also make it increasingly hard to give challanging encounters, so my advice there is dont give the players too much gold or loot, and you will find the game not that broke.
I find his taste in source material for names impeccable. Tis an excellent series, most definitely. Buttered Scone, anyone?
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I must say that your Avatar is also a very handsome looking one.
It always makes me think of the Tiste Andi from the Malazan books by steven erikson.
@ The eel, Yes it is definately a fantastic series, and must say that even 9500 pages later it is just as good (currently reading the 10th book).
I will get the math for later its past 2 here, maybe it was something pulled over my eyes ill have to check.
I must say that your Avatar is also a very handsome looking one.
It always makes me think of the Tiste Andi from the Malazan books by steven erikson.
whos avatar are you talking about? if mine thank you... sorry for being oblivious im tired
whos avatar are you talking about? if mine thank you... sorry for being oblivious im tiredI must say that your Avatar is also a very handsome looking one.
It always makes me think of the Tiste Andi from the Malazan books by steven erikson.
Was referring to tels (he has the same avatar as me), which is why we were complimenting eachother.
and would really love to check the math on those stats, something seems really out of place, unless you allow them to make items that give stat bonusses as other than enhancement bonus (would be a bad move), i guess that way he might be able to make an item giving +5 luck all stats (should be worth several hundred million gold but w.e.) and a +5 sacred to all stats (again we are talking major artifact level). So unless you accidentally gave them access to stuff like that it shouldnt be possible.
Anyways would love to see the math
oh lol sorry.
I think you have been had with allowing way way more wealth by level than normal, probably allowed the wizard to craft at half cost and allowed custom items.. which is plainly just a bad idea in general if you are not 100% sure of what you are doing.
As a rule of thumb, never, never ever allow increases of any kind that are not already in the game. So do not mess around with luck or insight bonuses on ability scores, besides not making much sense at all it is outbalanced. Size bonues are shape shifting bonuses so should only work on physical attributes and think very carefully before allowing it to be made permanent. Either way I am curious to see what the character did.
I'd also like to see the character sheet for this one....