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I'm about to start Carrion crown with my friends (most of us are pretty new to pathfinder) and unfortunatly we kept on getting people interesting and now we have a party of 7 players:A Bard, A barbarian, A summoner, a ranger, a cleric, a rogue, and an undecided (probably a Druid or a sorcerer)
So, how should I scale is adventures difficulty in order to prevent it from being a ROFLstomp?
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A Simple answer is double the number of creatures per encounter
(this will balance the player action economy and adjust the encounter level)
for the Big Bads, upgrade them and give them minions at that encounter to keep some of the players busy.
I generally agree, but you would need 8 players to justify straight doubling, and, in my opinion, the party in your campaign doesn't seem like a very maximized party (no straight wizard, for example, and several of the other classes don't strike me as the strongest), so you'll also need to take that into consideration. I think you'll need to use a lot of judgment and adjust encounter by encounter. As Azure Zero suggests, minions will be key, because the tough single opponents will be a cakewalk if your PCs can team up on them a lot.
I'm about to start Carrion crown with my friends (most of us are pretty new to pathfinder) and unfortunatly we kept on getting people interesting and now we have a party of 7 players:A Bard, A barbarian, A summoner, a ranger, a cleric, a rogue, and an undecided (probably a Druid or a sorcerer)
So, how should I scale is adventures difficulty in order to prevent it from being a ROFLstomp?
I would add enemies that aren't Incorporal Undeads, so the Barbarian, the Ranger and the Rogue don't feel useless.
Yeah, add zombies outside and skeletons inside. Maybe some ghouls to the graveyard. An advanced zombie or two for the big room in the basement (otherwise, like in my game, your cleric will just run up and channel holy energy and kill every one of the skeletons).
Just remember that the undead in the prison have been there for hundreds of years, so there's not a lot of flesh left on them.
Alternatively you can add some subplot about missing families that were taken to the prison and sacrificed by Whispering Way. This would provide fodder for zombies and ghouls.
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I dunno. I did see summoner in that list; I think doubling is justified.
I'd say, in general, just throw a lot more smaller/minion creatures in there. Also, don't underestimate the beauty of splitting the party - with a group that big, it won't be hard for monsters to get between them. Heck, just use wandering monsters. Then, instead of just the defined encounters, they're dealing with all those other things that seem to keep popping out of the woodwork. The whole haunts section at the end would be great for this as well.
But ... your biggest issue won't be the CR issue - it'll be running combats with 7 players and N monsters. Make sure you're using something like initiative cards (my preference) or one of those GameMastery initiative charts, alert both the current player and the next player ("Skarthus, you're up. Rinnec, you're next.") and that will help.
One thing I do a lot these days is auto-delay casters who don't know what they're going to do. If they're thinking about their spell, well, that's a delay, so I say "okay, you delay while you think about it" and move to the next player. I undelay them whenever they're ready and their initiative moves to that position.
One final bit of advice with that many players - don't run all the monsters on the same initiative. That helps fight the action economy issue and makes the combat feel more realistic at the same time.
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You will find seven people in any AP difficult. My group ran Savage Tide, Second Darkness, and CotCT with 7. I DM'd curse and in the end swore never to DM again for that many. There are lots of things you can do many of them suggested here, and many you've probably all ready thought of. Here are my top lessons learned for maintaing a balanced and fun game for when you exceed the prototypical 4 PC, balanced food group party. Remember break all these rules as necesary for you and your group to have fun!
1 - Work hard everynight to give every PC at the table a chance to shine. The biggest complaint amongest my players was the fact that there was such an overlap of roles that they ceased to feal unique.
2 - Combat encounters, especially at high levels will take A LONG TIME as seven PC's rotate through the initiative order. In the end of STAP our party had the capability of taking 30 melee attack actions every round! That takes a long time to play out, and the damage potential is extreme You may experience players awaiting their turn in the initiative order become bored or uninterested because it takes sooo long for the spotlight to get to them.
2 - Use fixed advancement. You gain a level when the DM says. Keep the party one below the recommended lvl. They are 75% bigger than minimum requried party, they have the resources to deal with it.
3 - Do not add one extra GP to the mix. Keep the economy in check. Heck even eliminate some.
4 - Fudge behind the screen as necessary to create drama. True even in 4 PC games that sometimes the encounter doesn't live up to the hype. This effect is even truer in a 7 person party.
5 - Eliminate the bard class and other like classes. This sounds extreme, and it probably is but a bard's abilities exponentiate through the roof the more people they have within his circle of effect. A +2 to attack for 4 folks vs +2 for 7 folks is a big difference!
6 - Limit splat books, I suggest core and APG only. Some may recommend 15 vs 20 point buy as well.
My 10 silvers worth!
2 - Use fixed advancement. You gain a level when the DM says. Keep the party one below the recommended lvl. They are 75% bigger than minimum requried party, they have the resources to deal with it.
3 - Do not add one extra GP to the mix. Keep the economy in check. Heck even eliminate some.
2) depends on the classes, stats and other resources.
3) I wouldn't reduce, already that they might probably end up under-equiped.
Both) depends on what you do with the AP and the encounters.
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I'm with walter on a lot of his suggestions. As a long time GM of large parties my normal reaction is Full hp for all monsters and +50% minions.
Besides that limiting the Summoner and possible druid to one combat summon at a time as an Eidolon and Animal Companion are going to add two extra sets of actions (so total 9).
In HoH absolutely add to any encounter beheaded (esp flaming), ectoplasmic creatures, burning skeletons, or zombies (in town esp). Add their CR to any skill DC check for identifying or learning the destruction method of haunts otherwise they seem weak.
Keep updating this thread as you move through the AP for more tips in each module!
--Vrocky Horror
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question: do you think it might be good to "force" a party split? or perhaps just since i dint even know half these guys to let my friend run his own side campaign for them? afterall, I'm only going to be able to start them with Harrowstone before i have to move(didn't plan on moving, habe no control on it).
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Don't get involved with an AP if you don't have the time to do it justice. It costs too much to buy all the adventures, the accessories, and too much in time to run it half assed. I hate when a campaign that I'm looking forward to just evaporates. I know the pressure to involve as many people as possible, but be firm at a number if you're not comfortable.
--Vrock the house
question: do you think it might be good to "force" a party split? or perhaps just since i dint even know half these guys to let my friend run his own side campaign for them? afterall, I'm only going to be able to start them with Harrowstone before i have to move(didn't plan on moving, habe no control on it).
We Finished CotCT a little over a month ago. At that time we had a group discussion. We decided on a geographical overlap split. Now we have two groups of 6 with 4 of our 7 players in both groups. We alternate Friday gaming site and campaign. So I am playing simultaneously in both Carrion Crown and Jade Regent. It is working, when real life doesn't interfere with our fantasy lives lol. I suppose this is just an intermitent step to a full group split, but it is working for now and know one walked away with hurt feelings.
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I've run 6 separate campaigns with 7-10 players before so I can tell you with confidence that it can be manageable and fun as long as you know how to run a group of that size properly.
Tip 1: Adapt on the fly
From a preparation standpoint with an Adventure Path, all the prep you really need to do is read if you plan on sticking to the AP material. All of the encounters, strategies, story setup etc is all there in the book. What you need to focus your energy on is making adjustments once the game begins. Be prepared to add Hit points to creatures to have them last longer, adjust their to hit and damage modifiers if they can't hit the PCs or if they're hitting too hard, add reinforcements if they are being slaughtered too easily. With a large group it's best to add than it is to throw too much at them and then subtract. The goal is not to make combat drag on forever but not have it over in the blink of an eye because the party is rolling over everything. Adjust to ensure the epic fights stay epic and the trash fights last long enough to make them expend resources but not be more difficult than it's intended to be.
Tip 2: Chaos reigns
With a group that size it's hard to keep things going along the way you want it. Don't fall into the trap of railroading because they are going off track. A lot of the times I find that if the party wants to do something else that's not on the schedule, let them. I can always find a reason to tie in what's going on with events that will bring them back into the track of the main story line. granted, this may take a while but and will usually mean using a module or custom content or something not from the AP books, and that's up to you whether you're comfortable doing that.
Tip 3: Keep the flow unobstructed
Seven players means there will be tons of things potentially going on at once: side conversations, people on their iPhones/iPads, one or more people in the bathroom or smoking outside, people eating, players giving attention to pets. Things not related to the game that take attention away from what's going on or from what you're saying. yes, jokes are fun and side stories can be entertaining sometimes, but you need to keep a handle on what's going on around the table and put the kibosh on things that are causing too much of a distraction or that detract focus from the game. Especially during combat.
Combat can take forever if you're not careful. I don't mean to say rush the players, because that just creates more problems. What I am saying is that you need to implement practices into your game that will help keep things moving along. Have your players who are "on deck" pre-roll their attacks and damage so when it's their turn they can announce their action, move, and the attacks if any can be resolved much quicker. If someone is taking their sweet time to decide on what to do, skip them, go two players down the initiative order and then go back to that player. If they are taking too long, do the same thing until they are at the bottom of the order and tell them if they can't decide you are moving to the next round. Most of the time it doesn't come to that but you can't get hung up in the game because of one person, that creates an opening for your other players to get distracted and start losing interest. Utilize computer programs (i use DM Genie for the combat tracker) or white boards to keep track of initiative so everyone knows when it's their turn to act.
Tip 4: Cycle between players
Sticking with one or two players in roleplay or conversation or following their actions for too long just creates an atmosphere of boredom for the players, and some might even think you're playing favorites. Best thing to do is follow a character for a bit as you ask them what they're doing and then cycle to the next player and so on. A lot fo times the group will split to investigate something so then you cycle between the groups to try and give them an equal share of the game time. Try to bring them back together before you put them into combat. If one group gets into a fight alone, try to alert the other group that there's trouble with sounds of combat being heard or something to that effect. It's best not to have separate groups in different combat encounters because that just complicates things.
Tip 5: Encourage roleplaying
Roleplaying can get very interesting in large groups. Interaction between party members can be very fun so give them opportunities to interact with each other. Interact with them through NPCs and talk to them, either as a plot device or a source of information to answer their questions or as a potential ally or adversary. Trust me, a night spent roleplaying and having fun through worthwhile and entertaining interaction between party members with little or no combat won't net you any complaints (unless they are obsessed with kicking ass in game).
Tip 6: Level them when you say they advance
Experience points are more trouble than they're worth. Players will kill every monster in the dungeon and disarm every trap they can find to max out their experience if you let them. So don't; tell them to advance a level when they get to a certain point in the AP or complete a plot arc if it was during a side quest/adventure. It's a lot less stressful when people aren't hounding you for experience in between sessions or at the end of a game, and it allows you to control the pace of the game.
I have more to say but I don't want to build a wall of text here. These are just my opinions so as my good friend Robert says that and a buck fifty can buy you a cup of coffee. Take or leave what you want, or nothing at all. Just a fellow DM's perspective and experiences.