Mike Franke wrote: Jaelithe wrote: Set wrote: Jaelithe wrote: This is the Iron Age of comics. Soon the gods will kill us all. The Iron Age was the '90s, with all the pouches and guns.
Then came the Plutonium Age. Toxic and radioactive.
Now we're up to our hips in the Quantum Age, where anything written will probably no longer be in continuity by the time the issue hits the stands. Unless it is. Until it isn't again. Any age in which Emma Frost talks shi+ to Thor and then kicks his ass can't be over too fast. So effin' stupid. I couldn't agree more. I stopped paying attention to Frost when from nowhere she can suddenly turn into diamond. What happened to the just telepath? Was that ever even explained. I only duck my head into comics a couple times a year these days. I call it the Mercury Age, at least on the DC side. It looks like Silver at first glance, but is really a toxic substance. While it doesn't READ like the Silver Age, it seems that the vast majority of characters are the Silver Age person under the costume. I'm not sure if there are any legacy characters left except those that have no Silver Age version (like Stargirl).
On the other note, Emma Frost got the diamond form power under Morrison. I think it did get a bit of an explanation under Whedon in Astonishing.
Grey Lensman wrote: Mike Franke wrote: Jaelithe wrote: Set wrote: Jaelithe wrote: This is the Iron Age of comics. Soon the gods will kill us all. The Iron Age was the '90s, with all the pouches and guns.
Then came the Plutonium Age. Toxic and radioactive.
Now we're up to our hips in the Quantum Age, where anything written will probably no longer be in continuity by the time the issue hits the stands. Unless it is. Until it isn't again. Any age in which Emma Frost talks shi+ to Thor and then kicks his ass can't be over too fast. So effin' stupid. I couldn't agree more. I stopped paying attention to Frost when from nowhere she can suddenly turn into diamond. What happened to the just telepath? Was that ever even explained. I only duck my head into comics a couple times a year these days. I call it the Mercury Age, at least on the DC side. It looks like Silver at first glance, but is really a toxic substance. While it doesn't READ like the Silver Age, it seems that the vast majority of characters are the Silver Age person under the costume. I'm not sure if there are any legacy characters left except those that have no Silver Age version (like Stargirl).
On the other note, Emma Frost got the diamond form power under Morrison. I think it did get a bit of an explanation under Whedon in Astonishing. The idea of secondary mutations being taken seriously make me want to slap the taste out of Morrison's mouth.
That said, frost was host for the Phoenix force at the moment, Thor is powerful but he's not *that* powerful.
Freehold DM wrote: The idea of secondary mutations being taken seriously make me want to slap the taste out of Morrison's mouth. I've seen at least one decent explanation for it. In the X-Men anime secondary mutations are referred to as 'David Haller Syndrome' (nice call-out to comic history) and are potentially lethal. It's treated as a mutant-only disease (and yes, all the X-Men are stated to be vaccinated against it. Frost wasn't but gets stabilized shortly after it shows up) and is something they are all afraid of.
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Set wrote:
Now, since it's been established that Bismollans convert matter they eat into energy, and have invulnerable digestive tissue, being like the opposite of Kryptonians (who can absorb a tiny bit of sunlight on their face and convert it into the power to drop kick the moon out of orbit) in that they use nuclear fission levels of power to walk around and talk and do stuff that the rest of us do normally, it's possible to make super-powered Bismollans that do have impressive powers.
Activating Hypernerd Mode....
Check out Tenzil's fellow Bismollian Taryn Loy, aka "Calorie Queen," who could channel the converted energy from consumed matter into super-strength.
Calybos1 wrote: Set wrote:
Now, since it's been established that Bismollans convert matter they eat into energy, and have invulnerable digestive tissue, being like the opposite of Kryptonians (who can absorb a tiny bit of sunlight on their face and convert it into the power to drop kick the moon out of orbit) in that they use nuclear fission levels of power to walk around and talk and do stuff that the rest of us do normally, it's possible to make super-powered Bismollans that do have impressive powers.
Activating Hypernerd Mode....
Check out Tenzil's fellow Bismollian Taryn Loy, aka "Calorie Queen," who could channel the converted energy from consumed matter into super-strength. respectful nod
There is always someone better....
Calybos1 wrote: Activating Hypernerd Mode....
Check out Tenzil's fellow Bismollian Taryn Loy, aka "Calorie Queen," who could channel the converted energy from consumed matter into super-strength.
Yeah, that's where I got the idea for Bismollan 'supers.' There's tons of potential, not just for Bismollans, but for Imskians or whatever who have unique super-powers, and not just the racial standards.
But even with just racial standards, some training and / or gear, and you've got 'Batman, who also has a super-power.'
Freehold DM wrote: Grey Lensman wrote: Mike Franke wrote: Jaelithe wrote: Set wrote: Jaelithe wrote: This is the Iron Age of comics. Soon the gods will kill us all. The Iron Age was the '90s, with all the pouches and guns.
Then came the Plutonium Age. Toxic and radioactive.
Now we're up to our hips in the Quantum Age, where anything written will probably no longer be in continuity by the time the issue hits the stands. Unless it is. Until it isn't again. Any age in which Emma Frost talks shi+ to Thor and then kicks his ass can't be over too fast. So effin' stupid. I couldn't agree more. I stopped paying attention to Frost when from nowhere she can suddenly turn into diamond. What happened to the just telepath? Was that ever even explained. I only duck my head into comics a couple times a year these days. I call it the Mercury Age, at least on the DC side. It looks like Silver at first glance, but is really a toxic substance. While it doesn't READ like the Silver Age, it seems that the vast majority of characters are the Silver Age person under the costume. I'm not sure if there are any legacy characters left except those that have no Silver Age version (like Stargirl).
On the other note, Emma Frost got the diamond form power under Morrison. I think it did get a bit of an explanation under Whedon in Astonishing. The idea of secondary mutations being taken seriously make me want to slap the taste out of Morrison's mouth.
That said, frost was host for the Phoenix force at the moment, Thor is powerful but he's not *that* powerful. Uh ... yes, he is. In the past, he's easily handled a wielder of the Phoenix force by reflecting the power back on them. From what I understand, Frost had a sliver of the Phoenix force, not its full measure. (If she had it all, the equation certainly changes in her favor.)
Unless you're a longtime reader of Thor, you're largely unaware of what he's actually capable. Going all out and using the full spectrum of his powers, he wouldn't necessarily defeat Phoenix—I mean the fully-powered one—but he would have a chance. And with the Odinpower, I'd likely take him over the Phoenix. Rune Thor? He'd drop her like a bad habit.
In short ... yes, it was ridiculous (again, if she just had a sliver of it)—to the point where the author is a jackass, an idiot or a droolin' Emma fanboy.
The Thor of Lee and Kirby, of Simonson, and of DeFalco is arguably the most powerful hero in mainstream comics—more powerful than the Hulk, the Silver Surfer, Superman, the Martian Manhunter, et al. The guy they're writing today is an emasculated Thor. I barely recognize him.
Jaelithe wrote: The Thor of Lee and Kirby, of Simonson, and of DeFalco is arguably the most powerful hero in mainstream comics—more powerful than the Hulk, the Silver Surfer, Superman, the Martian Manhunter, et al. The guy they're writing today is an emasculated Thor. I barely recognize him. I have to disagree with this.
Not counting the "Abstract Entities," of which Marvel has a slew, DC heroes operate on a whole other power level compared to Marvel heroes.
Superman... has been portrayed in a wildly inconsistent manner, but the Silver Age Superman (and hence Superboy Prime I guess) could have gone to Marvel earth and wiped the floor with all the Marvel Heroes.
All the Marvel villains too.
At the same time.
I'm not joking or exaggerating by the way. The only thing that stopped Silver Age Superman was writer contrivance via kryptonite, red sun radiation, or magic if he felt like using that one.
And all that was usually hokey too, because as Brainiac 5 put it when approached about using a red sun projector to depower some rampaging Daxamites:
"You want to shine a lamp on beings who can move faster than light?"
1. Quasar
2. Starman
3. Mr. Snow
4. The Midnighter
5. Grace (dark horse)
6. Silver Surfer
7. Ghost
8. X
9. Fairchild
10. I-man (mid-West Avengers)
Jaelithe wrote: Freehold DM wrote: Grey Lensman wrote: Mike Franke wrote: Jaelithe wrote: Set wrote: Jaelithe wrote: This is the Iron Age of comics. Soon the gods will kill us all. The Iron Age was the '90s, with all the pouches and guns.
Then came the Plutonium Age. Toxic and radioactive.
Now we're up to our hips in the Quantum Age, where anything written will probably no longer be in continuity by the time the issue hits the stands. Unless it is. Until it isn't again. Any age in which Emma Frost talks shi+ to Thor and then kicks his ass can't be over too fast. So effin' stupid. I couldn't agree more. I stopped paying attention to Frost when from nowhere she can suddenly turn into diamond. What happened to the just telepath? Was that ever even explained. I only duck my head into comics a couple times a year these days. I call it the Mercury Age, at least on the DC side. It looks like Silver at first glance, but is really a toxic substance. While it doesn't READ like the Silver Age, it seems that the vast majority of characters are the Silver Age person under the costume. I'm not sure if there are any legacy characters left except those that have no Silver Age version (like Stargirl).
On the other note, Emma Frost got the diamond form power under Morrison. I think it did get a bit of an explanation under Whedon in Astonishing. The idea of secondary mutations being taken seriously make me want to slap the taste out of Morrison's mouth.
That said, frost was host for the Phoenix force at the moment, Thor is powerful but he's not *that* powerful. Uh ... yes, he is. In the past, he's easily handled a wielder of the Phoenix force by reflecting the power back on them. From what I understand, Frost had a sliver of the Phoenix force, not its full measure. (If she had it all, the equation certainly changes in her favor.)
Unless you're a longtime reader of Thor, you're largely unaware of what he's... I am afraid I disagree. The Phoenix power had fluctuated a great deal in the past few years and I think Thors writer has as well. Thor wasn't killed but he did get his clock cleaned. If she simply punted his head off its shoulders with a yawn, I'd be with you. But he got beat up, it's not the same. And no, Thor is not among the most powerful characters in the universe when you bring in the weirdo quasi deities. They would slap him around without trying.
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Jaelithe wrote: Uh ... yes, he is. In the past, he's easily handled a wielder of the Phoenix force by reflecting the power back on them. From what I understand, Frost had a sliver of the Phoenix force, not its full measure. (If she had it all, the equation certainly changes in her favor.)
Unless you're a longtime reader of Thor, you're largely unaware of what he's...
sunbeam wrote: I have to disagree with this.
Not counting the "Abstract Entities," of which Marvel has a slew, DC heroes operate on a whole other power level compared to Marvel heroes.
Superman... has been portrayed in a wildly inconsistent manner, but the Silver Age Superman (and hence Superboy Prime I guess) could have gone to Marvel earth and wiped the floor with all the Marvel Heroes.
All the Marvel villains too.
At the same time.
I'm not joking or exaggerating by the way. The only thing that stopped Silver Age Superman was writer contrivance via kryptonite, red sun radiation, or magic if he felt like using that one.
And all that was usually hokey too, because as Brainiac 5 put it when approached about using a red sun projector to depower some rampaging Daxamites:
"You want to shine a lamp on beings who can move faster than light?"
In a medium wherein heroes are exactly as powerful as their respective author feels like making them at the time, it's pretty pointless to argue about which hero is more "powerful" than the other.
Freehold DM wrote: I am afraid I disagree. No need to be afraid. You're dead wrong, but it's not a big deal. Most modern comics readers have no concept of just how powerful Thor is ... or, rather was in days gone by.
Quote: The Phoenix power had fluctuated a great deal in the past few years and I think Thor's writer has as well. Thor wasn't killed but he did get his clock cleaned. If she simply punted his head off its shoulders with a yawn, I'd be with you. But he got beat up, it's not the same. And no, Thor is not among the most powerful characters in the universe when you bring in the weirdo quasi deities. They would slap him around without trying. The "weirdo quasi-deities" are not heroes, are they? That point isn't germane to the discussion.
Thor got "his clock cleaned" because the writer clearly has no idea of his historical power level (or, alternately, dislikes it, as Busiek does: KB's intense dislike of the Thor character is well known in Thor fan circles), and loves the X-Men—not because a being wielding a mere sliver of the Phoenix force could really defeat him were he written to his potential. The fact that he got beat up is all the evidence one needs of the story's absolute absurdity.
I'm familiar with the Phoenix force as a longtime reader of X-Men. I've also been reading Thor since the mid-70s, and have also gone back to Journey into Mystery.
Insofar as Thor's power level: Currently, he's been downgraded to be inferior to the Hulk, that white-haired slut in X-Men, and a few other heroes he would have dusted contemptuously in bygone, better days.
Historically, a being who's absorbed multiple blows from Celestials and kept fighting (as well as punching a hole in a Celestial's battle armor), separated Surtur from the Sword of Twilight, sent Galactus scurrying off like a little girl in fear of his life, defeated Ego the Living Planet, stood toe-to-toe against Odin, Zeus, Shiva, whipped Thanos (though it was retconned to be a clone by Thanos fan-boys), fought the Hulk and Sub-Mariner to a standstill, killed the Hulk and Thing in hand-to-hand combat simultaneously without his hammer or powers (though later the timeline was altered), knocked Gladiator into next week twice, dropped the Phoenix by reflecting her power back at her (this happened in an issue of Thor) with interest, etc. doesn't get his clock cleaned. Too ... dumb ... for words.
Jaelithe wrote: Freehold DM wrote: I am afraid I disagree. No need to be afraid. You're dead wrong, but it's not a big deal. Most modern comics readers have no concept of just how powerful Thor is ... or, rather was in days gone by.
Quote: The Phoenix power had fluctuated a great deal in the past few years and I think Thor's writer has as well. Thor wasn't killed but he did get his clock cleaned. If she simply punted his head off its shoulders with a yawn, I'd be with you. But he got beat up, it's not the same. And no, Thor is not among the most powerful characters in the universe when you bring in the weirdo quasi deities. They would slap him around without trying. The "weirdo quasi-deities" are not heroes, are they? That point isn't germane to the discussion.
Thor got "his clock cleaned" because the writer clearly has no idea of his historical power level (or, alternately, dislikes it, as Busiek does: KB's intense dislike of the Thor character is well known in Thor fan circles), and loves the X-Men—not because a being wielding a mere sliver of the Phoenix force could really defeat him were he written to his potential. The fact that he got beat up is all the evidence one needs of the story's absolute absurdity.
I'm familiar with the Phoenix force as a longtime reader of X-Men. I've also been reading Thor since the mid-70s, and have also gone back to Journey into Mystery.
Insofar as Thor's power level: Currently, he's been downgraded to be inferior to the Hulk, that white-haired slut in X-Men, and a few other heroes he would have dusted contemptuously in bygone, better days.
Historically, a being who's absorbed multiple blows from Celestials and kept fighting (as well as punching a hole in a Celestial's battle armor), separated Surtur from the Sword of Twilight, sent Galactus scurrying off like a little girl in fear of his life, defeated Ego the Living Planet, stood toe-to-toe against Odin, Zeus, Shiva, whipped Thanos (though it was retconned to be a clone by Thanos fan-boys),... And of course, even in his own book back in those bygone, better days, has been beaten into the ground by much weaker opponents than those - usually to recover and come up with a clever way to win of course.
Almost all heroes wind up being less powerful and effective outside of their own titles, since they're not the star.
This is a basic part of comics. Apparent power fluctuates based on the needs of the story.
sunbeam wrote:
I have to disagree with this.
Superman... has been portrayed in a wildly inconsistent manner, but the Silver Age Superman (and hence Superboy Prime I guess) could have gone to Marvel earth and wiped the floor with all the Marvel Heroes.
All the Marvel villains too.
At the same time.
No one was discussing the Silver Age Superman (whose powers were beyond ridiculous into sublimely absurd) ... but Thor's powers are magical in nature. While that version of Superman was nearly invincible, he was vulnerable to kryptonite ... and magic—which Thor possesses in spades. Lee's-Kirby's/Simonson's/DeFalco's Thor could easily lose to that Superman, without question ... but he could absolutely defeat him, too.
And Jurgens' Thor (with the Odinpower), would handle even the Silver Age Superman. This is a being who could raise the dead, disassemble and reassemble the moon molecule by molecule, and blast a hole through Captain America's shield. Eventually, he would have been able to do anything Odin had ... and Odin's way out of even Silver Age Superman's league. (The All-Father could stop time, compress an entire civilization into a gestalt being, move entire populations into other dimensions, etc.) Frankly, though, it's not a fair comparison, because Odin's already into the "being beyond hero" status. Arguably, though, so was Silver Age Superman. When you're flying through supernovae to clean your suit, well ... come on, man. :)
The modern Thor? The Silver Age Superman wouldn't even notice him.
thejeff wrote: And of course, even in his own book back in those bygone, better days, has been beaten into the ground by much weaker opponents than those - usually to recover and come up with a clever way to win of course.
Almost all heroes wind up being less powerful and effective outside of their own titles, since they're not the star.
This is a basic part of comics. Apparent power fluctuates based on the needs of the story.
Someone attends church at Our Lady of the Patently Obvious. :P
Snarkiness aside ... that's a given. Thor isn't nearly so powerful in Avengers as he is in his own book—unless the writer needs him to be.
I mean ... the Cobra and Mr. Hyde used to give Thor problems. He's been knocked out by a tranquilizer cannister. Hell, according to Busiek, Thor isn't even bulletproof.
I still think having him get soundly whipped by Emma Frost detracts from the character's rightful status at the top of the Marvel heap. He's one of those characters, like the Silver Surfer, who simply should not be ill-used that way, in my opinion.
Jaelithe wrote: sunbeam wrote:
I have to disagree with this.
Superman... has been portrayed in a wildly inconsistent manner, but the Silver Age Superman (and hence Superboy Prime I guess) could have gone to Marvel earth and wiped the floor with all the Marvel Heroes.
All the Marvel villains too.
At the same time.
No one was discussing the Silver Age Superman (whose powers were beyond ridiculous into sublimely absurd) ... but Thor's powers are magical in nature. While that version of Superman was nearly invincible, he was vulnerable to kryptonite ... and magic—which Thor possesses in spades. Lee's-Kirby's/Simonson's/DeFalco's Thor could easily lose to that Superman, without question ... but he could absolutely defeat him, too.
And Jurgens' Thor (with the Odinpower), would handle even the Silver Age Superman. This is a being who could raise the dead, disassemble and reassemble the moon molecule by molecule, and blast a hole through Captain America's shield. Eventually, he would have been able to do anything Odin had ... and Odin's way out of even Silver Age Superman's league. (The All-Father could stop time, compress an entire civilization into a gestalt being, move entire populations into other dimensions, etc.) The All-Father could also be beaten, along with the rest of Asgard, and captured by a bunch of alien slavers until Thor could come along and rescue him. (I've been reading through my old Thors.)
Power fluctuates to match the needs of the story.
thejeff wrote: Power fluctuates to match the needs of the story. You didn't stutter the first time. We got you.
Sometimes, though, story sucks. Emma Frost kickin' Thor's ass is an example of one that did.
Jaelithe wrote: thejeff wrote: And of course, even in his own book back in those bygone, better days, has been beaten into the ground by much weaker opponents than those - usually to recover and come up with a clever way to win of course.
Almost all heroes wind up being less powerful and effective outside of their own titles, since they're not the star.
This is a basic part of comics. Apparent power fluctuates based on the needs of the story.
Someone attends church at Our Lady of the Patently Obvious. :P
Snarkiness aside ... that's a given. Thor isn't nearly so powerful in Avengers as he is in his own book—unless the writer needs him to be.
I mean ... the Cobra and Mr. Hyde used to give Thor problems. He's been knocked out by a tranquilizer cannister. Hell, according to Busiek, Thor isn't even bulletproof.
I still think having him get soundly whipped by Emma Frost detracts from the character's rightful status at the top of the Marvel heap. He's one of those characters, like the Silver Surfer, who simply should not be ill-used that way, in my opinion. I'm not sure he ever was bulletproof. At least not in the old days. He didn't do the "bullets bouncing of my chest, don't waste time shooting at me" thing. He'd deflect them with the hammer or something.
I wasn't really paying attention during that whole Phoenix thing, so I haven't actually read that scene and don't really have an opinion on that. Just that the history isn't as clear about Thor being so unstoppable as you were painting it.
Being beaten by Frost (Phoenix boosted and I assume using telepathy? Which he's got no special defenses against other than general stubbornness.), doesn't seem that much more absurd to me than many of the other he's been beaten by less than celestial class enemies.
Actually, we've seen Thor in his own book deflect bullets with his hammer (which could imply he needs to do so) and be hit by armor-piercing shells (from aircraft cannon, if I'm not mistaken) that he described as raising slight welts/an annoyance, or some such. Probably depends on the writer (like you've said), as with so many of these comparisons.
When did I ever say Thor was "unstoppable"? [You don't mention trouble with the Cobra and Mr. Hyde in an attempt to imply a character is invincible. ;)] I was talking about his power level (which has, even in the recent past, been much higher than it is now), and the fact that the scene as it was written rankled me—in some measure because I really like Thor and absolutely can't abide Emma Frost in the least.
I don't have to paint him in any fashion. The comics speak for themselves.
As to his "general stubbornness" ... he has resisted mind blasts that put down Moondragon. We've also seen him, in Avengers, successfully resist two Deviant brain moles (and even struggle a bit against three) when every other hero, including the ones with psionic powers and formidable will (like Sersi), were completely subdued by just one. That's pretty obdurate, if you ask me, and that's not even his own book.
It wasn't Emma Frost that beat Thor, it was the Phoenix, that just happened to be residing in Emma Frost at the time.
The world of superheroes is like the world of wrestling entertainment.
It has become commonplace for a hero to "job" for another hero or villain in the other's storyline in order to "get them over" with the fans. It's just a narrative device.
Sebastrd wrote: The world of superheroes is like the world of wrestling entertainment.
It has become commonplace for a hero to "job" for another hero or villain in the other's storyline in order to "get them over" with the fans. It's just a narrative device.
True enough.
You weren't anyone on TNG until you kicked Worf's ass. And then, on DS9, he was essentially unstoppable.
Imbicatus wrote: It wasn't Emma Frost that beat Thor, it was the Phoenix, that just happened to be residing in Emma Frost at the time.
I understand. I simply skimmed the story, but got the impression it was just a small portion of the Phoenix force, not its entirety. A sliver shouldn't have been able to do that to Thor.
Now if it was the Phoenix itself? No problem with it winning—though he could have won in his own mag. :D
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'Phoenix' and 'canon' are two words that have no business being used in the same sentence. I think the Phoenix has an entirely different backstory every single appearance. Only a few key details stay the same. It has a connection to Jean Grey. It's power level is of the scale. It has flaming bird manifestations. By the time the event with it is over, someone will be dead, or someone who was dead will come back. Nothing else seems to have even the slightest level of consistency.
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The biggest problem I have with the whole "Phoenix" concept is it seemed to be dreamed up to make nice, safe, boring Jean Grey into some sexy badass. And then they realized they made her too badass and had to write her off..
But nooo..we can't Scott Summers suffer
Intro: Madelyne Prior
enter, new writer..lets screw with scott summers
Madelyne is a clone..hahahah
now lets fast forward scotts kid into the future..
argh!..sorry for the digression, but the whole, phoenix storyline started the whole chain of events that destroyed the x-men I used to read. I know there are lots and lots of people that love Gambit, bishop cable etc..but not me.
The X-Men are vastly more interesting as kids in over their heads, coming into their powers and learning about life than they are as slick, professional, blase save-the-universe-every-other-day "we're so kewl and badass" heroes. Bo-ring.
I suppose one of my favorite x-men favorite lines was in the 90's and came from Multiple Man... "GET ME!!!"
Black Dougal wrote: The biggest problem I have with the whole "Phoenix" concept is it seemed to be dreamed up to make nice, safe, boring Jean Grey into some sexy badass. And then they realized they made her too badass and had to write her off..
But nooo..we can't Scott Summers suffer
Intro: Madelyne Prior
enter, new writer..lets screw with scott summers
Madelyne is a clone..hahahah
now lets fast forward scotts kid into the future..
argh!..sorry for the digression, but the whole, phoenix storyline started the whole chain of events that destroyed the x-men I used to read. I know there are lots and lots of people that love Gambit, bishop cable etc..but not me.
There's much more to it than that, IIRC. Claremont's original plan for the Dark Phoenix was for Jean to survive, but be permanently depowered. However, being drawn blowing up an inhabited planet brought down editorial (Jim Shooter I believe), who ordered that she die. Enter Madelyn Pryor.
Jaelithe wrote: Imbicatus wrote: It wasn't Emma Frost that beat Thor, it was the Phoenix, that just happened to be residing in Emma Frost at the time.
I understand. I simply skimmed the story, but got the impression it was just a small portion of the Phoenix force, not its entirety. A sliver shouldn't have been able to do that to Thor.
Now if it was the Phoenix itself? No problem with it winning—though he could have won in his own mag. :D the Phoenix power kinda waned and waxed between the five of them, and I THINK the Phoenix force has a mad on for other gods and so more power could have been shunted to her solely to kick thors ass. By that time in the storyline, I think it was more than a sliver in frost as other people who had the power had been defeated beforehand(spider man beat one single handedly iirc. If tthat's not plot armor, I don't know what is.)
Jaelithe wrote: Freehold DM wrote: I am afraid I disagree. No need to be afraid. You're dead wrong, but it's not a big deal. Most modern comics readers have no concept of just how powerful Thor is ... or, rather was in days gone by.
Quote: The Phoenix power had fluctuated a great deal in the past few years and I think Thor's writer has as well. Thor wasn't killed but he did get his clock cleaned. If she simply punted his head off its shoulders with a yawn, I'd be with you. But he got beat up, it's not the same. And no, Thor is not among the most powerful characters in the universe when you bring in the weirdo quasi deities. They would slap him around without trying. The "weirdo quasi-deities" are not heroes, are they? That point isn't germane to the discussion.
Thor got "his clock cleaned" because the writer clearly has no idea of his historical power level (or, alternately, dislikes it, as Busiek does: KB's intense dislike of the Thor character is well known in Thor fan circles), and loves the X-Men—not because a being wielding a mere sliver of the Phoenix force could really defeat him were he written to his potential. The fact that he got beat up is all the evidence one needs of the story's absolute absurdity.
I'm familiar with the Phoenix force as a longtime reader of X-Men. I've also been reading Thor since the mid-70s, and have also gone back to Journey into Mystery.
Insofar as Thor's power level: Currently, he's been downgraded to be inferior to the Hulk, that white-haired slut in X-Men, and a few other heroes he would have dusted contemptuously in bygone, better days.
Historically, a being who's absorbed multiple blows from Celestials and kept fighting (as well as punching a hole in a Celestial's battle armor), separated Surtur from the Sword of Twilight, sent Galactus scurrying off like a little girl in fear of his life, defeated Ego the Living Planet, stood toe-to-toe against Odin, Zeus, Shiva, whipped Thanos (though it was retconned to be a clone by Thanos fan-boys),... uh... Are you sure we haven't met before...?
Yeah. I just recall that Rachel Summers, when wielding the Phoenix Force as a member of Excalibur, took a huge shot at Thor—she thought he was the Juggernaut at the time, if I'm not mistaken, and so was not holding anything in reserve—who reflected it back at her with Mjolnir and dropped her like a sack of meal.
It's all about what the writer wants, I suppose. I just don't like my favorites getting dissed by characters I can't stand ... and I loathe Emma Frost. :)
Freehold DM wrote: ... Are you sure we haven't met before...? No, I'm not.
You've encountered someone with my impeccable taste before? :D
Grey Lensman wrote: Black Dougal wrote: The biggest problem I have with the whole "Phoenix" concept is it seemed to be dreamed up to make nice, safe, boring Jean Grey into some sexy badass. And then they realized they made her too badass and had to write her off..
But nooo..we can't Scott Summers suffer
Intro: Madelyne Prior
enter, new writer..lets screw with scott summers
Madelyne is a clone..hahahah
now lets fast forward scotts kid into the future..
argh!..sorry for the digression, but the whole, phoenix storyline started the whole chain of events that destroyed the x-men I used to read. I know there are lots and lots of people that love Gambit, bishop cable etc..but not me.
There's much more to it than that, IIRC. Claremont's original plan for the Dark Phoenix was for Jean to survive, but be permanently depowered. However, being drawn blowing up an inhabited planet brought down editorial (Jim Shooter I believe), who ordered that she die. Enter Madelyn Pryor. Yeah, thanks I was going solely on memory and just read up on the whole history. Jim Shooter ..sheesh..Anyway, while I loved days of future past I really stoped reading X-men by the late 1980's. Too many split offs, new characters, etc. I think the Dark Phoenix saga was the zenith of the x-men line. I will confess I did find Jean grey very hot as Phoenix..so in terms of marketing to 15 year old boys it must have been a successful marketing move.
Black Dougal wrote: I will confess I did find Jean grey very hot as Phoenix..so in terms of marketing to 15 year old boys it must have been a successful marketing move. It was Psylocke for me at 15. :)
Been in love with Rogue since I was 9.
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Snowbird and Moondragon, for me, although I blame Persis Khambatta for that last one.
Superman
Spider-Man
Hellboy
Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Aquaman
Silver Surfer
Kevin Matchstick (form the Mage series)
Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers)
Freehold DM wrote: Been in love with Rogue since I was 9. Illyana all the way.
It was hard putting together this list mostly because I tend to follow creators more than I do actual characters. Not that the characters don't matter, they absolutely do. I'll probably never pick up another Punisher book. I love Greg Rucka but not even he is going to make me read Frank Castle again. The last Punisher book that I read was Remender's Frankencastle and only because it felt radically different than anything that's come before. I enjoyed it. But once it went back to status quo. Blech.
Anyway here's my list:
Spider-Man (Peter Parker, Ultimate & 616 Versions) - Pretty much the Ultimate Spider-Man. I have almost all of the hardcover trades from Peter Parker's tenure. I think this was probably the most "pure" spider-man comic we've had for the past decade.
I was kinda "meh" on Dan Slott's run (but ironically I think that Superior Spider-Man is EXCELLENT. I cant wait for the omnibus for this title...) but Bendis Spider-man book is aces.
Captain America (Steve Rogers) - My love for Capt America goes back to those Captain America & Falcon team ups. And then Roger Stern / John Byrne run in the 80's. Then the Mark Waid run in the 90's and then Brubaker's run on the book.
Iron Man (Tony Stark) Yes. I was the kid in JHS arguing that Iron Man could beat the X-Men by HIMSELF. FROM ORBIT. Also? Armor Wars. Then Him vs. The Mandarin. I think that Matt Fractions most recent run on the book is highly underrated.
Black Panther (T'Challa) - The Priest run. 'nuff said.
Robin / Nightwing (Dick Greyson) I loved, LOVED the fact that during the Judas Contract story arc that the only member of the Titans with NO POWERS was the ONLY one who escaped from Deathstroke.
Cyclops - for his many, many flaws make him that much more "human" to me. Also X-Men 175, he takes on all of the X-Men alone (yes, Mastermind is controlling them but still...) and lives.
The Confessor (Astro City) - Confessions and Tarnished Angel are my two favorite Astro City Stories with Confessions edging out Tarnished Angel by about an inch. I loved, LOVED the Confessor's backstory and have a real soft spot for Teacher and Apprentice type stories.
Daredevil (Matt Murdock) - Forget Miller's original run. BORN AGAIN is the definitive Daredevil story in my book. It tells you everything you need to know about this character in that one arc. Also Brubaker's run on the book is actually really good too.
Batman (DCUA) Yeah I said it. I like the DCAU Batman better than the one who is in the comics. Especially crotchety old Bruce in Batman Beyond. I'm a fan of Terry McGuiness as well. Mostly because he kinda harkens back to Spider-Man in a way.
Static - Black Spider-Man, yeah pretty much. Still a great character and I absolutely LOVED seeing him make it in the DCAU.
My list has changed a bit, so here's now- not in a particular order, except that Spidey's my favourite superhero ever.
1.Spider-Man
2.Batman
3.Captain America
4.Mighty Thor
5.Jubilee
6.Nightcrawler
7.Kitty (Shadowcat/Sprite) Pryde
8.Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
9.Ant-Man (Scott Lang)
10.The Thing
Black Dougal wrote:
argh!..sorry for the digression, but the whole, phoenix storyline started the whole chain of events that destroyed the x-men I used to read. I know there are lots and lots of people that love Gambit, bishop cable etc..but not me.
Cable, Gambit, Bishop...who the hell are they?
Lucky for me, I stopped reading the X-Men right before these characters showed their sorry faces....
Rosgakori wrote: My list has changed a bit, so here's now- not in a particular order, except that Spidey's my favourite superhero ever.
1.Spider-Man
2.Batman
3.Captain America
4.Mighty Thor
5.Jubilee
6.Nightcrawler
7.Kitty (Shadowcat/Sprite) Pryde
8.Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
9.Ant-Man (Scott Lang)
10.The Thing
Sigh...same old, same old: Spider-Man, Batman, Cap....so many people just run with the pack. I personally cannot stand any super-heroes that are overexposed and so overly popular.
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Abyssal Lord wrote: Sigh...same old, same old: Spider-Man, Batman, Cap....so many people just run with the pack. I personally cannot stand any super-heroes that are overexposed and so overly popular. So if you'd enjoyed a character, they'd fall out of favor with you simply because they became more popular?
1. Chamber
2. Wolverine
3. The Crow
4. John Constantine
5. Hellboy
6. Rorschach
7. Deadpool
8. Psylocke
9. Jesse Custer
10. Penance/Hollow
Abyssal Lord wrote: Sigh...same old, same old: Spider-Man, Batman, Cap....so many people just run with the pack. I personally cannot stand any super-heroes that are overexposed and so overly popular.
Can't help it. Spider-Man is first comic book about superheroes that I read as a child. It has stuck with me all the years, and I have grown reading Spider-man. I started to like cap during Civil War, and after reading that storyline, I started to hoard other Cap stories. And Bats is just Bats. I can't help it :D
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Rosgakori wrote: Abyssal Lord wrote: Sigh...same old, same old: Spider-Man, Batman, Cap....so many people just run with the pack. I personally cannot stand any super-heroes that are overexposed and so overly popular.
Can't help it. Spider-Man is first comic book about superheroes that I read as a child. It has stuck with me all the years, and I have grown reading Spider-man. I started to like cap during Civil War, and after reading that storyline, I started to hoard other Cap stories. And Bats is just Bats. I can't help it :D It's also possible that some characters are popular and long-lasting because they're just good character concepts. Iconic, archetypal, deep rooted appeal to all of those characters.
The hipster "I don't like that because it's too popular" thing is just as bad as jumping on the bandwagon and liking it because it's popular.
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thejeff wrote: The hipster "I don't like that because it's too popular" thing is just as bad as jumping on the bandwagon and liking it because it's popular. Well and truly said.
thejeff wrote: The hipster "I don't like that because it's too popular" thing is just as bad as jumping on the bandwagon and liking it because it's popular. I'll take it a step further and say that it is exactly the same thing. It may be a bandwagon popular with different people, but it is still a bandwagon.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
In Hulk:AGENTS OF SMASH, Hulk and Thor have one of their fights in Asgard, and the Green Guy throws Thor against Loki's cell which prompts the following quip from the Trickster.
"Who's the puny god, now?"
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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ShinHakkaider wrote: Batman (DCUA) Yeah I said it. I like the DCAU Batman better than the one who is in the comics. Especially crotchety old Bruce in Batman Beyond. I'm a fan of Terry McGuiness as well. Mostly because he kinda harkens back to Spider-Man in a way. Did you see the Coda they made to Batman Beyond in the Justice League animated series? Finding out where the series name came from was quite a hoot.
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