Four Primary Natural attacks at level 2


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ARG is a fun lil book.

Figure a Tengu could make a pretty sweet Barbarian, bite, plus the alternative racial trait "claw attack" offers up 3 natural attacks at 1st level.

take barbarian to level 2 grab lesser fiend totem and a nice 1d8 gore attack

and your running a gore/bite/claw/claw at your full BAB with STR to dmg , throw in power attack and other lovely rage power damage buffs and I'm thinking you've got yourself a very viscous barbarian. the 1d3 is irrelevant since most dmg comes from STR and power attack, and the 1d8 gore is solid for those single attacks

start taking levels of rogue and you've got a very mean 4 natural attack sneak attacking rogue without all the pesky penalties for TWF.

fall down a bit in the higher levels are iteratives go beyond 4 attacks but as a low to mid idea seems pretty solid

thoughts and other combos ?

Grand Lodge

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Ratfolk, with the Adopted and Tusked trait, the Sharpclaw feat, and a tailblade.
That's four natural attacks, at first level, in any class.
Now, go into alchemist, take the Tentacle Discovery, the Vestigial Arm Discovery(twice) and the Feral Mutagen Discovery.
Later, take the Demonic Obedience(Lamashtu) feat for an extra slam.

That's 4 claws, 2 slams, 1 bite, and 1 tail attack.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ratfolk, with the Adopted and Tusked trait, the Sharpclaw feat, and a tailblade.

That's four natural attacks, at first level, in any class.
Now, go into alchemist, take the Tentacle Discovery, the Vestigial Arm Discovery(twice) and the Feral Mutagen Discovery.
Later, take the Demonic Obedience(Lamashtu) feat for an extra slam.

That's 4 claws, 2 slams, 1 bite, and 1 tail attack.

And maybe a DMg flying at your head hehehe. Good opt-fu there though.

Grand Lodge

Of course, with the -2 str, and +2 dex, an Agile AoMF is a must.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ratfolk, with the Adopted and Tusked trait, the Sharpclaw feat, and a tailblade.

That's four natural attacks, at first level, in any class.
Now, go into alchemist, take the Tentacle Discovery, the Vestigial Arm Discovery(twice) and the Feral Mutagen Discovery.
Later, take the Demonic Obedience(Lamashtu) feat for an extra slam.

That's 4 claws, 2 slams, 1 bite, and 1 tail attack.

Does tusked qualify for adopted? I'm not sure if it does.

Grand Lodge

Why is tusked different from any other race trait?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is tusked different from any other race trait?

Because it's an alternate trait. I would say you have to choose one from the normal race list, not alternates.

Grand Lodge

No, not racial trait, race trait. It is in Orcs of Golarion.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ratfolk, with the Adopted and Tusked trait, the Sharpclaw feat, and a tailblade.

That's four natural attacks, at first level, in any class.
Now, go into alchemist, take the Tentacle Discovery, the Vestigial Arm Discovery(twice) and the Feral Mutagen Discovery.
Later, take the Demonic Obedience(Lamashtu) feat for an extra slam.

That's 4 claws, 2 slams, 1 bite, and 1 tail attack.

There's a pretty strong debate about vestigal arms and tentacle not giving "extra" natural attacks , I've heard both sides about what constitutes an "extra" attack etc etc its a grey area.

also where are your 2 slams coming from ? I can see the two extra claws on your vestigial arms but you've only got 1 tentacle for 1 slam ?

Also where is the Tusked trait from can't find it on the SRD.

The initial 4 natural attacks seem to work though no dispute


Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is tusked different from any other race trait?
Because it's an alternate trait. I would say you have to choose one from the normal race list, not alternates.

You are thinking of toothy. There are 2 ways to get bite attacks for orcs, one is an alternate racial trait (toothy) the other is a trait (race) called tusked.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is tusked different from any other race trait?
Because it's an alternate trait. I would say you have to choose one from the normal race list, not alternates.
You are thinking of toothy. There are 2 ways to get bite attacks for orcs, one is an alternate racial trait (toothy) the other is a trait (race) called tusked.

could you link the trait from one of the web srd's please I can't for the life of me find it

Grand Lodge

2nd slam is from the boon from the Demonic Obedience feat.

The Tusked trait is in the Orcs of Golarion book, page 23.


Phasics wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is tusked different from any other race trait?
Because it's an alternate trait. I would say you have to choose one from the normal race list, not alternates.
You are thinking of toothy. There are 2 ways to get bite attacks for orcs, one is an alternate racial trait (toothy) the other is a trait (race) called tusked.
could you link the trait from one of the web srd's please I can't for the life of me find it

It wasn't in the D20pfsrd.com, but I own the physical copy of the book (at our GMs house so can't give specifics) so I know it exists.

Also the second slam (from the demonic obediance feat) wouldn't come into play until 16th level unless you were PrCing however. That is late enough that it should be pointed out.

Grand Lodge

Yes, it's true that the second slam, won't come into play until later.

You can also gain a gore attack, with two levels of barbarian.


Phasics wrote:
.. could you link the trait from one of the web srd's please I can't for the life of me find it

Toothy = Alternate race trait (half orc) from APG

Razortusk = Feat from APG
Tusked = Race trait from Orcs of Golarion

They do the same .. you get a 1d4 bite attack.

Grand Lodge

The Mother's Teeth trait will also give you a bite, though weaker than the one provided by the Tusked trait.


Phasics wrote:

ARG is a fun lil book.

Figure a Tengu could make a pretty sweet Barbarian, bite, plus the alternative racial trait "claw attack" offers up 3 natural attacks at 1st level.

take barbarian to level 2 grab lesser fiend totem and a nice 1d8 gore attack

and your running a gore/bite/claw/claw at your full BAB with STR to dmg , throw in power attack and other lovely rage power damage buffs and I'm thinking you've got yourself a very viscous barbarian. the 1d3 is irrelevant since most dmg comes from STR and power attack, and the 1d8 gore is solid for those single attacks

start taking levels of rogue and you've got a very mean 4 natural attack sneak attacking rogue without all the pesky penalties for TWF.

fall down a bit in the higher levels are iteratives go beyond 4 attacks but as a low to mid idea seems pretty solid

thoughts and other combos ?

I may be wrong, but if it follows the usual rules for natural attacks you need a dedicated limb for each attack--so bite, claw, claw works---but adding the gore doesn't because you only have one head and it is already biting. you could gore OR bite.


Hakken wrote:
Phasics wrote:

ARG is a fun lil book.

Figure a Tengu could make a pretty sweet Barbarian, bite, plus the alternative racial trait "claw attack" offers up 3 natural attacks at 1st level.

take barbarian to level 2 grab lesser fiend totem and a nice 1d8 gore attack

and your running a gore/bite/claw/claw at your full BAB with STR to dmg , throw in power attack and other lovely rage power damage buffs and I'm thinking you've got yourself a very viscous barbarian. the 1d3 is irrelevant since most dmg comes from STR and power attack, and the 1d8 gore is solid for those single attacks

start taking levels of rogue and you've got a very mean 4 natural attack sneak attacking rogue without all the pesky penalties for TWF.

fall down a bit in the higher levels are iteratives go beyond 4 attacks but as a low to mid idea seems pretty solid

thoughts and other combos ?

I may be wrong, but if it follows the usual rules for natural attacks you need a dedicated limb for each attack--so bite, claw, claw works---but adding the gore doesn't because you only have one head and it is already biting. you could gore OR bite.

Now this is interesting I've heard one other person mention the one natural attack per limb but I've never actually seen the rule for it. Do you know where I can find that rule ? link ?


i am also wondering, as I was thinking about a minitoar having a bite attack and a bazu beard. Wondering if you could use the bazu beard as a secondary attack, a gore and a bite. i states that you can only use one attack per limb, but I dunno if the head is considered a limb.

Ps tusked does not make an appearance in the pfsrd. I spent alot of time searching for it a while back ;] just so you know that you cannot find it.


Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons,
such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be
made against any creature within your reach (usually
5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack
bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on
their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal).
You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high
base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack
rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making
the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the
attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as
a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2
times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with
that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural
attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary
natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus
minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage
depending on their type, but you only add half your
Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in
combination with attacks made with a melee weapon
and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used
for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw
attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a
longsword.

from page 182 of the core rulebook-note the you receive additional attacks rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack part. which means--one head--one attack. now an ettin--two heads--so two bites or bite gore possible.


Hakken wrote:

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons,

such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be
made against any creature within your reach (usually
5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack
bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on
their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal).
You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high
base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack
rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making
the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the
attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as
a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2
times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with
that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural
attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary
natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus
minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage
depending on their type, but you only add half your
Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in
combination with attacks made with a melee weapon
and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used
for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw
attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a
longsword.

from page 182 of the core rulebook-note the you receive additional attacks rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack part. which means--one head--one attack. now an ettin--two heads--so two bites or bite gore possible.

I assume this is the passage your referring two

"Instead, you receive additional attack
rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making
the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the
attacks)."

Doesn't really make it definitive either way, horns and jaws are both body parts.


aye=as in anything--GM at your table will make the call


Hakken wrote:
aye=as in anything--GM at your table will make the call

Yerp pretty much, in this case its pretty much GM just working out is the player being a munchkin or is this needed to make a character concept/build work.

A reasonable house rule would be to follow the Eidolon table for max natural attacks by level,

Grand Lodge

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PCs are not Eidiolons.


lol actually the gms I have seen when I am at a table with eidelons make the eidelongs follow the same rules--ie one head has to choose between gore or bite. most get extra limbs for extra claws or get rake for the extra attacks. pounce plus the two extra attacks for rake on quadrapeds seems common.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:
PCs are not Eidiolons.

No they are not, doesn't mean the eidolon max natural attacks isn't a reasonable guide to use for a GM concerned about a PC gaining lots of natural attacks early


gargoyles are the best arguement for allowing a bite and a gore. they get both with one head.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is tusked different from any other race trait?

RAW, yes, it works. But saying I was adopted by a half-orc so have tusks does not seem like it was intended to work that way. I agree it is legal, it just makes me sad that it is.


Mighty Squash wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is tusked different from any other race trait?
RAW, yes, it works. But saying I was adopted by a half-orc so have tusks does not seem like it was intended to work that way. I agree it is legal, it just makes me sad that it is.

Aye legal but a human raised by Orc's grows tusks as a result ? really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

That's like saying a Eurpean baby adopted and raised by Chinese parents will develop a epicanthal fold as a result. Just doesn't make sense ;)


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Phasics wrote:
Mighty Squash wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is tusked different from any other race trait?
RAW, yes, it works. But saying I was adopted by a half-orc so have tusks does not seem like it was intended to work that way. I agree it is legal, it just makes me sad that it is.

Aye legal but a human raised by Orc's grows tusks as a result ? really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

That's like saying a Eurpean baby adopted and raised by Chinese parents will develop a epicanthal fold as a result. Just doesn't make sense ;)

RAW and certain peoples sensibilities are quite often at odds. Everyone has different views. I just try to keep the fact we are playing a game based entirely in a world where magic is an everyday thing that drives the world on in mind... and well, my panties don't get in a bunch, and more importantly I can find amusement when others do.


The only real problem with all these crazy natural attack builds is that a barb can only take one totem. So, if you take fiend totem for gore you can't take beast totem for pounce. Pounce seems even more necessary with all these attacks.


pobbes wrote:
The only real problem with all these crazy natural attack builds is that a barb can only take one totem. So, if you take fiend totem for gore you can't take beast totem for pounce. Pounce seems even more necessary with all these attacks.

not really any more than any other high attack number build e.g. monk or TWF


Phasics wrote:
pobbes wrote:
The only real problem with all these crazy natural attack builds is that a barb can only take one totem. So, if you take fiend totem for gore you can't take beast totem for pounce. Pounce seems even more necessary with all these attacks.
not really any more than any other high attack number build e.g. monk or TWF

Which is why everyone needs a way to take pounce, seriously.


pobbes wrote:
Phasics wrote:
pobbes wrote:
The only real problem with all these crazy natural attack builds is that a barb can only take one totem. So, if you take fiend totem for gore you can't take beast totem for pounce. Pounce seems even more necessary with all these attacks.
not really any more than any other high attack number build e.g. monk or TWF
Which is why everyone needs a way to take pounce, seriously.

not really there are other feats that you can take to stick with someone, step up and following step for the most part is all you need to stay in touch to full round attack.

there also some immediate action move abilities to let you move when its not your turn so your free to full round attack on your turn.

Pounce is nice but hardly a must have

Grand Lodge

How would you even implement the "Eidolion based" limitation on natural attacks to PCs?


I don't even see why it would be an issue, especially at lower levels. You may have 5 attacks but they do low-middling die damage, do half strength except for the primary, the secondaries work at -5 to hit or -2 if you have multiattack. The fighter with a two hander would probably be doing more damage consistently.

That said, I do like the idea of natural weapon PCs, if nothing more than some interesting flavor.

Grand Lodge

I know it is not a huge balance issue, but unless you are a sword and board fighter with no stat below 10, then some people flip out.


Phasics wrote:
Mighty Squash wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is tusked different from any other race trait?
RAW, yes, it works. But saying I was adopted by a half-orc so have tusks does not seem like it was intended to work that way. I agree it is legal, it just makes me sad that it is.

Aye legal but a human raised by Orc's grows tusks as a result ? really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Perhaps he just learns how to bite with his normal teeth.

When I was little and I was fighting with the other kids I sometimes used my fingernails (claws) and teeth (bite) to win a fight.
And now, that I know what I'm doing I am fairly sure I could badly hurt ppl with my mouth (and thats not by insulting their moms).

What keeps me from doing it is A) I don't want to badly hurt people and B) I don't want to get infected with stuff the other guy might have.

Normal human society talls us that it is wrong to bite other people.
If the orc parents tell you from when you are little that it is good to do so and you practice it, why not?


Umbranus wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Mighty Squash wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is tusked different from any other race trait?
RAW, yes, it works. But saying I was adopted by a half-orc so have tusks does not seem like it was intended to work that way. I agree it is legal, it just makes me sad that it is.

Aye legal but a human raised by Orc's grows tusks as a result ? really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Perhaps he just learns how to bite with his normal teeth.

When I was little and I was fighting with the other kids I sometimes used my fingernails (claws) and teeth (bite) to win a fight.
And now, that I know what I'm doing I am fairly sure I could badly hurt ppl with my mouth (and thats not by insulting their moms).

What keeps me from doing it is A) I don't want to badly hurt people and B) I don't want to get infected with stuff the other guy might have.

Normal human society talls us that it is wrong to bite other people.
If the orc parents tell you from when you are little that it is good to do so and you practice it, why not?

Heh I don't care how good at biting a human gets our teeth and mouths were not designed to inflict alot of damage. put it this way could a human ever match your average dog for damage inflicted with a bite ?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
How would you even implement the "Eidolion based" limitation on natural attacks to PCs?

real simple you can have as many natural attacks as you want as a PC but you can only use a certain number to attack with at various levels.

so you manage to get yourself 7 natural attacks by 3rd level, with eidolon restriction you could choose to use any 3 to attack with, as you level you get to use more and more.

This is a house rule and again I suggest its for GM who are worried about large numbers of natural attacks at low levels becuase they can get pretty brutal with a high STR and power attack

Grand Lodge

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With all the crazy magic going on, a human biting people trips you up?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
With all the crazy magic going on, a human biting people trips you up?

only because its not a magical effect ;)

Grand Lodge

Neither is barbarian rage.


How would a build using Natural Attacks deal with DR/Magic or cold iron or silver or adamantine or alignment?


Where's the Weed? wrote:
How would a build using Natural Attacks deal with DR/Magic or cold iron or silver or adamantine or alignment?

Amulet of Mighty Fists. Stack it up enough, and it gets through all of that. It is, however, very expensive.


What would happen when you hit BAB 6/1?

Would you get a second attack with the bite??


If you did get extra attacks, that would be sick.

And if you do, can you choose which attack gets the extra hit? [I pick Gore(d8) and not Bite(d3)]

Liberty's Edge

Where's the Weed? wrote:

What would happen when you hit BAB 6/1?

Would you get a second attack with the bite??

No. You only get those with manufactured weapons (or those that count as such). With Natural Attacks you're stuck with the number you have.


Where's the Weed? wrote:
How would a build using Natural Attacks deal with DR/Magic or cold iron or silver or adamantine or alignment?

There's several feats and spells that can get around this

e.g.
Eldritch Claws feat, natural weapons are considered magic and silver against DR.

Greater Magic Fang for 1hr/level enchantment


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Neither is barbarian rage.

The Rage powers that grant you bite, claws or gore are supernatural and therefore are magical.

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