Can anyone explain to me why I cannot Teleport out of a grapple when it is Verbal only? How about why I can't Teleport out of a Grapple even when using the Silent Spell MetaMagic Feat?
Basis: Talking is free...heck, I can even talk out of turn per the rules. But someone throws a wet noodle over me and I have to make a nigh-impossible concentration check?! lol...
You can, the concentration DC is just stupidly high.
Like...it's harder to cast when someone's holding onto your left arm than it is to cast while being carried by a tornado.
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I've always presumed it's because anyone grappling a spellcaster is trying to prevent him from talking...or at least will when and if he starts chanting.
The whirlwind is not doing the same.
Still, Silent, Spells with no material component probably should be exempt, however. At least from a perspective of logic.
Because magic
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Spellcasting is hard when some half-orc monk is trying to rip your wizardly beard off your face or feeding you your own familiar!
But if you can make that Concentration check more power to ya, slip that grapple with the greatest of ease! Better to get a magic item that can do something similar as you can use it while grappled with no check whatsoever!
--Figure Four Leg Vrock
Deadman, that's pinning.
Grapple didn't even permit that in 3E, and the effects of grappling were greatly reduced in PF compared to 3E. You don't even occupy the same space anymore, nor are you restricted from attacking other creatures.
The grapple DC for concentration makes no sense; it'd be fine for pinning.
Believe me, I'm all for buffing maneuvers and martial classes and nerfing casters. This is a really crappy way to do it. Especially since Teleport school wizards (1st level Su teleport ability can't be stopped by anything other than AMF) and druids and clerics (freedom of movement) still don't care.
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It is assumed that the grappler is intentional doing things to mess up the spell. So, while it only is verbal, it still takes concentration, so, while you are casting it, they are twisting your arm, jerking you around, and generally messing up your concentration. The better their CMB, the more skilled they are at fouling you up. In a world full of magic and casters, that is probably part of fighter 101.
Nothing stopping you from making the concentration check. It's my usual thing to grapple ole spellcaster, and if possible, on the next round I ready a grapple check to harm if I notice any spellcasting, adding the damage to the DC for concentration.
Nothing stopping you from making the concentration check. It's my usual thing to grapple ole spellcaster, and if possible, on the next round I ready a grapple check to harm if I notice any spellcasting, adding the damage to the DC for concentration.
I don't think that's possible unless you have Greater Grapple, as normally your standard action will be eaten up maintaining the grapple.
Yep, Greater Grapple, should've edited that. Most definitely Greater Grapple. Plus, Dimensional Agility to use Abundant Step. AS to caster, grapple.
Of course it did backfire with a contingency spell one time, although my character still didn't learn his lesson :)
I do believe part of the theory of the magic system is that the words you speak need very precise intonations and inflections and doing such precise things while you're basically doing greco-roman wrestling is why the concentration check is required.
yeah concentration checks need some work
way too many different types or calculation
is there a supernatural or ex ability that allows teleport/d door affects and therefore dont need concetration checks?
yeah concentration checks need some work
way too many different types or calculationis there a supernatural or ex ability that allows teleport/d door affects and therefore dont need concetration checks?
Not if it's considered a move action and spell like abilities need a check as well, as per grappled condition:
Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. [/quote
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Conjuration (teleport) specialists laugh at those who attempt to grapple them.
*Shifts away*
Although it's only 5 ft for every 2 caster levels. And its as Dimension Door so your turns over (barring the Dimensional feat chain) after it...
Monk has 70 ft walk at level 12...caster shifts 60 ft away...Monk moves then grapples again :)
Can anyone explain to me why I cannot Teleport out of a grapple when it is Verbal only? How about why I can't Teleport out of a Grapple even when using the Silent Spell MetaMagic Feat?
I see nothing in the rules to say you cannot. As long as you make the proper concentration checks while being grappled I don't see a reason you cannot teleport out of a grapple. You can cast spells while grappled and I see nothing in grapple that give it any dimensional anchoring ability. As long as you do not choose to take your grappler with you I don't see a problem.
Hell my warlock did it ALL the time.
Basis: Talking is free...heck, I can even talk out of turn per the rules. But someone throws a wet noodle over me and I have to make a nigh-impossible concentration check?! lol...
SPELLCASTING and talking are drastically different things. Just because a spell has only a verbal component does not mean your just talking. Spellcasting assumes a certain level of intense concentration to access your mind, channel magical energy and manipulate that energy in special ways (like reciting magic words in a very precise and exact way) to release an effect, hence why it takes concentration checks if your trying to do it when someone is hitting your or grappling you etc.
Try reciting the declaration of independance. Then do it while someone is wrestling you to the ground. Now assume that if you say it the way you do when standing alone, the magic works. Now say it in the exact same way, inflection, pronunciation, timing, volume, etc. while someone is wrestling you. If you cannot, your spell fails because you did not cast the spell right.
Get the point?
Simply talking is infinately easier than any form of spell casting, which is why talking can be done any time and spell casting cannot. And remember that there is power and magical energy ebing manipulated by the caster in spellcasting that does not exist in simple talking, which is what the concentration check is there to represent.
Even casting spells with NO components at all have a level of menbtal accuracy and consistancy required that if your hit you still need to make concentration checks, repesenting that even spells with no components are hard to do if your distracted or molested in some fashion.
If magic were as simple as talking, then fighters would do it and still be able to fight right?
is there a supernatural or ex ability that allows teleport/d door affects and therefore dont need concetration checks?
Not teleportation but the witch is a powerhouse in this regard.
Charm (Su): A witch can charm an animal or humanoid creature within 30 feet by beckoning and speaking soothing words. This improves the attitude of an animal or humanoid creature by 1 step, as if the witch had successfully used the Diplomacy skill. The effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Witch's Intelligence modifier. A Will save negates this effect. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day. At 8th level, this effect improves the attitude of the target creature by 2 steps. This is a mind-affecting charm effect.
Flight (Su): The witch grows lighter as she gains power, eventually gaining the ability to fly. At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.
Slumber (Su): A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch's level. This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Prehensile Hair (Su): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand. The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch's elongated hair shrink away to nothing. Using her hair does not harm the witch's head or neck, even if she lifts something heavy with it. The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows.
Any of those are available at level 1. Though, Flight is fairly limited at level 1. :/
Try reciting the declaration of independance. Then do it while someone is wrestling you to the ground. Now assume that if you say it the way you do when standing alone, the magic works. Now say it in the exact same way, inflection, pronunciation, timing, volume, etc. while someone is wrestling you. If you cannot, your spell fails because you did not cast the spell right.
I like to use the example of dictation software.
Recite the declaration of independence into your computer. If the words on the screen match the declaration, your spell works; if the software interprets any of your words differently, it fails.
Now, once you've perfected dictating to the computer, let's have someone twist your arm behind your back, trying to make you fail, and see how often you can succeed in replicating the passage perfectly on screen.
I see all of your points and they are valid, of course. But if I have a spell that has had ALL of the casting parts removed I STILL have to make that check. NO verbal, NO somantic, NO components....but it still technically casting a spell.
Virtually ALL of the above arguments defend the VERBAL portion, which can be removed by a MetaMagic Feat or Rod.
By the same argument of "The grappler is doing what he can to mess you up and keep you from doing X", I should have to make a check to draw a light weapon and attack. There is NO check for that. I can even pull out a readied potion and DRINK it. How hard would it be to DRINK while wrestling around. There is NO check for that either.
Grappling has been a thorn in designers sides from the beginning.
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It is assumed that the grappler is intentional doing things to mess up the spell. So, while it only is verbal, it still takes concentration, so, while you are casting it, they are twisting your arm, jerking you around, and generally messing up your concentration. The better their CMB, the more skilled they are at fouling you up.
And stuffing a Fist in your mouth, pulling your chest hair, Biting your arm, giving you Wet Willies, pressure points, knees, elbows, headbutts.
Although it's only 5 ft for every 2 caster levels. And its as Dimension Door so your turns over (barring the Dimensional feat chain) after it...
Monk has 70 ft walk at level 12...caster shifts 60 ft away...Monk moves then grapples again :)
Since we're playing "what ifs..."
That's why I shift into a relatively unreachable place, such as a nearby tree or chandelier. It takes a move action to get to the tree. Another move action to start climbing at 1/4 your speed. Even if said monk gets to me, he's out of actions. Most people won't be able to catch up to me before I get another round.
13th level tetori will laughs in the end.
Tetori utilizes a bunch of non-existent feats and is practically unplayable as written.
What's more, the effect from Inescapable Grasp ability to which you are referring says that it functions like dimensional anchor. Dimensional anchor only works on spells and spell-like effects:
A green ray springs from your hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like abilities. The spell also prevents the use of a gate or teleportation circle for the duration of the spell.
Shift is a supernatural ability (there's your answer, thenovelord), not a spell or spell-like ability. Therefore it is exempt from dimensional anchor's effects (and by extension, Inescapable Grasp as well).
And here I thought this thread was about the Grappled Condition's unbelievable persistance, not requiring that you even be on the same plane as your Grappler, much less be threatened by them, up to when they fail to Maintain the Grapple on the subsequent Round. Regardless of which way you see Grapple's 'no movement' restriction, I don't see Teleportation as movement in any sense: there is no inertia developed/changed, it is not contiguous translation across space, but discontiguous substitution of spatial position.
Although it's only 5 ft for every 2 caster levels. And its as Dimension Door so your turns over (barring the Dimensional feat chain) after it...
Monk has 70 ft walk at level 12...caster shifts 60 ft away...Monk moves then grapples again :)
Since we're playing "what ifs..."
That's why I shift into a relatively unreachable place, such as a nearby tree or chandelier. It takes a move action to get to the tree. Another move action to start climbing at 1/4 your speed. Even if said monk gets to me, he's out of actions. Most people won't be able to catch up to me before I get another round.
13th level tetori will laughs in the end.
Tetori utilizes a bunch of non-existent feats and is practically unplayable as written.
What's more, the effect from Inescapable Grasp ability to which you are referring says that it functions like dimensional anchor. Dimensional anchor only works on spells and spell-like effects:
A green ray springs from your hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like abilities. The spell also prevents the use of a gate or teleportation circle for the duration of the spell.
Shift is a supernatural ability (there's your answer, thenovelord), not a spell or spell-like ability. Therefore it is exempt from dimensional anchor's effects (and by extension, Inescapable Grasp as well).
Those feats were errata'd, RD.
The fact that you are teleporting by an SU instead of a spell or SLA should not really be a factor.RAW other things only work on spells and SLA's while the intent is for all magic.
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
It does not say potions(include other magic items also) even though they are made by spells, SLA's, Supernatural abilities, and so on. This is mostly because the text was just copied over, and many 3.5 classes did not have SU's that forced saves, and the PHB was written from a PC's point of view.
I do wish they had made errata that extended many of the spell descriptions to SU's. The above being one example.
In short RAW you are correct.
RAI, I strongly disagree.
I see all of your points and they are valid, of course. But if I have a spell that has had ALL of the casting parts removed I STILL have to make that check. NO verbal, NO somantic, NO components....but it still technically casting a spell.
Think about this. If you remove the verbal, somatic, and material components from a spell... what do you do to cast it? If nothing, then as soon as you do nothing, you'd cast it by default. Even with a spell with no components, you're doing 'something', and that something requires supreme concentration. Failure to concentrate properly loses the spell!
So, despite the fact that you no longer need components, the concentration portion is still there, is still just as critical, and can still be disrupted.
Spell casting is different from drawing a weapon or drinking a potion, because it doesn't require the same mental effort.
But if I have a spell that has had ALL of the casting parts removed I STILL have to make that check.
NO verbal, NO somantic, NO components....but it still technically casting a spell.
You're not removing the part of spellcasting that involves Concentration.
It's not necessarily about physical impediments to casting, it's that this stuff all up in your face is intruding upon your mental concentration.I believe Paizo has even ruled that anybody can notice somebody Concentrating on Casting a spell, i.e. no Verbal/Somatic/Material Components, but it's still recognizable as Casting a spell. Just as a Still/Silenced/Eschewed spell still requires a Concentration check while casting on the back of a galloping horse or violently churning ship deck or being affected by a non-damaging spell while Casting, it requires one while some dude has a hold on you and is jerking you around (Grappled). And yet people somehow still think Casters rule the game... go figure.
Conjuration (teleport) specialists laugh at those who attempt to grapple them.
*Shifts away*
unless its a tetori: " no you git! i aint lettin ya go now wherez!!"
Note that it says the "Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include..." it not say that those are the only movement blocked
+1
@RD Hehehe you're right...total what if territory. I'll give you the last say, mainly because the idea of a booky wizard caught up in a tree high enough (and far enough away) to be out of reach of High Jump is just priceless!
@RD Hehehe you're right...total what if territory. I'll give you the last say, mainly because the idea of a booky wizard caught up in a tree high enough (and far enough away) to be out of reach of High Jump is just priceless!
At 10th-level, many monks might have a +50 modifier to jump. That only allows for a 12.5 foot high jump. Even with a ki point, and an average roll they only net about 80, which is 20 feet high. At 10th-level, I can shift 25 feet.
If you recall, I don't need to out run you, I just need to you to use up your actions trying to catch up. If it buys me another round, you might not live to attack/grapple me in the following round (that, or I can use a true teleport to escape before plotting my revenge).
It's also worth noting that Tetori don't get High Jump.
Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door
"A green ray springs from your hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like abilities. The spell also prevents the use of a gate or teleportation circle for the duration of the spell."
idk it looks like it works ta deez eyes
now beat my monks stealth with your wizards perception.
I don't need to beat your Stealth. Your position is automatically revealed when you grapple one of my mirror images.