Or if you like the dwarf's +WIS/CON, but can't afford the -CHA for your cleric. Or if you like the elf's +INT/DEX, but the -CON makes you nervous. Or if you want +STR/CON for your barbarian (and again, without a minus). Or if you want +WIS/CHA for a cleric (focused on casting and channeling). Or if you want a combo that's covered by an exotic race that your GM isn't allowing (this would be a major thing in PFS, for instance).
I see a big attraction as getting ideal +2/+2 combos AND Human favored class bonuses.
(bonus spells known for casters is a big one)I'm not that fixated about stat bonuses, but it does seem useful for heavily MAD classes esp. if you also want to qualify for Eldritch Heritage (when CHA would otherwise not be useful to the character build).
Am I mistaken in thinking that this make humans an even better race?
It seems like other races have gotten plenty of goodies too.
Racial Heritage Feat is really the only factor I don't like,basically the Eldritch Heritage for Racial Abilities (without Skill Focus Pre-Req).
Uplift the Human by giving them the Flexible trait instead of Human Heritage (this only bump them from 9RP to 11RP)
+2 to an Ability Score is huge and is worth more than a feat IMO, unless your going for a specific build (specific builds can be awesome in their own rights).
Think about it this way:
+2 Str is like having Weapon Focus with all melee weapons AND gives you a +1 bonus to your CMB, CMD and damage rolls made with melee weapons AND increase your carrying capacity.
+2 Dex is like having Dodge AND Weapon Focus with all ranged weapons AND gives you a +1 bonus on your initiative rolls AND reflex saving throws.
+2 Con is like having Toughness AND gives you a +1 bonus on all your fortitude saving throws.
+2 Int is like having Spell Focus in every magic schools AND bonus spells if you are a Wizard or a Witch AND gives you +1 skill point per level.
etc...
A feat might be better at first level (example: Toughness), but, in the long run, I believe that +2 to an Ability Score is the way to go.
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It will be immensely appealing to some people, I can tell you that. Depending on how feat starved your build is, it can actually be a hindrance, but for classes which don't depend as much on feats to be good, it's a boon.No class is feat starved. This is one of the silliest myths of forums.
I agree. Its never a class that's feat-starved. Its specific builds that the player is trying to make that tend to become feat-starved. In my book, that feeling of "there's too much that I want to take to make my character cool" means that the system works. There are enough interesting, desirable decisions to make that you actually need to think and weigh your options. Brainless decisions are less fun then ones that you need to think and plan for, in my opinion.
+2 to an Ability Score is huge and is worth more than a feat IMO, unless your going for a specific build (specific builds can be awesome in their own rights).
Think about it this way:
+2 Str is like having Weapon Focus with all melee weapons AND gives you a +1 bonus to your CMB, CMD and damage rolls made with melee weapons AND increase your carrying capacity.
+2 Dex is like having Dodge AND Weapon Focus with all ranged weapons AND gives you a +1 bonus on your initiative rolls AND reflex saving throws.
+2 Con is like having Toughness AND gives you a +1 bonus on all your fortitude saving throws.
+2 Int is like having Spell Focus in every magic schools AND bonus spells if you are a Wizard or a Witch AND gives you +1 skill point per level.
etc...
A feat might be better at first level (example: Toughness), but, in the long run, I believe that +2 to an Ability Score is the way to go.
Except that, in the long run, base atttributes tend to get deemphasized as equipment becomes more important, and being able to get started on a feat tree two levels earlier, along with getting more skill points throughout your advancement, is also very powerful, so in the end it's an even tradeoff. I would suspect that at higher levels, the choice would be noticable in flavor, but probably not in power.
+2 to an Ability Score is huge and is worth more than a feat IMO, unless your going for a specific build (specific builds can be awesome in their own rights).
Think about it this way:
+2 Str is like having Weapon Focus with all melee weapons AND gives you a +1 bonus to your CMB, CMD and damage rolls made with melee weapons AND increase your carrying capacity.
+2 Dex is like having Dodge AND Weapon Focus with all ranged weapons AND gives you a +1 bonus on your initiative rolls AND reflex saving throws.
+2 Con is like having Toughness AND gives you a +1 bonus on all your fortitude saving throws.
+2 Int is like having Spell Focus in every magic schools AND bonus spells if you are a Wizard or a Witch AND gives you +1 skill point per level.
etc...
A feat might be better at first level (example: Toughness), but, in the long run, I believe that +2 to an Ability Score is the way to go.
Except without this new racial trait, I could put an ability increase into any of those areas AND take a feat like Weapon Focus, Dodge, or whatever, and have the effects STACK.
It's balanced, perhaps even a little underpowered. You really do give up a lot of the bonus.
Except without this new racial trait, I could put an ability increase into any of those areas AND take a feat like Weapon Focus, Dodge, or whatever, and have the effects STACK.
It's balanced, perhaps even a little underpowered. You really do give up a lot of the bonus.
Indeed, the bonus feat seems to be better for the "all eggs in the same basket" approach, and Pathfinder tends to reward specialization over versatility. However, the additional ability score increase looks very sexy for MAD classes such as the monk. Yeah, I know, a dwarven monk would still be a better choice, but sometimes you just don't feel like playing a dwarf.
Having to play through 7 levels of being worse than a half-elf before you get a single extra advantage seems kind of lame.Worse HOW exactly?Human:
+2 to stat of choice
Free Skill Focus
Free skill rank/levelHalf-Elf:
+2 to stat of choice
Free Skill Focus
Low-light vision
Two favored classes
Immune to sleep effects
+2 to saves versus enchantmentsI'd call a skill rank per level worse than the sum total of low-light vision, two favored classes, immunity to sleep, and a save bonus. Am I wrong?
But for a potential three (or four) times the half elfs major bonus? It's a pretty good trade, even in the short term. I've never played a character who couldn't use another skill point. (That said, I'm a big half-elf fan. That's why I think this racial feature is a little too good.)
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Ughbash: You obviously haven't seen this feat yet:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class,
you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead
of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can
choose an alternate class reward.
The end result of taking it is almost identical to taking the Toughness feat and selecting +1 skill point at every level.
It cost 1 feat and you have to select the skill/hp option every level to benefit from it.In some instance it is actually weaker than taking Toughness (multiclassed characters or characters taking alternate favoured class bonuses). It shines only if you want a character with plenty of hp and take it and Toughness at the same time. With that build it become a +1 skill point/level feat.
I agree. Its never a class that's feat-starved. Its specific builds that the player is trying to make that tend to become feat-starved. In my book, that feeling of "there's too much that I want to take to make my character cool" means that the system works. There are enough interesting, desirable decisions to make that you actually need to think and weigh your options. Brainless decisions are less fun then ones that you need to think and plan for, in my opinion.It will be immensely appealing to some people, I can tell you that. Depending on how feat starved your build is, it can actually be a hindrance, but for classes which don't depend as much on feats to be good, it's a boon.No class is feat starved. This is one of the silliest myths of forums.
Well, it's a good thing that I said "build" in my post, not "class". <eyeroll>
Seems that Cheapy missed that.
The 3 skill focuses is pretty cool for any fighter that takes eldritch heritage. Putting that much into CHA to get the whole tree hurts your point buy. I reccomend sacking.INT to 7 (Since humans can skill get 3 skills per level.
That means you get your preq for Heritage and you can have 2 other skills you are good at despite being a Big Stupid Fighter.
For Instance.
Skill fcs: Survival (for Orc Bloodline)
skill fcs: UMD (you have high CHA so why not learn to use magic items- wands of Enlarge, POE etc)
Skill Fcs: Perception or Acrobatics
I am a fan of the 3 skill focus feats also since I normally play skilled characters. After finding out about the orc bloodline it is even more attractive.
I'm referring to the dual talent alternate race trait of the advanced race guide: in exchange for the bonus feat and the skilled trait you get a +2 to another attribute of your choice.
Am I mistaken in thinking that this make humans an even better race?
I think this is perfectly balanced - it represents human versatility and to be honest, for most of my characters, I'd never give up the bonus feat and skill ranks for a piddling +2 attribute bonus.
To be fair though, we play with a 25 point build. Considering how restrictive pre-req's are for 20 and 15 point builds, I might consider taking advantage under those circumstances.
Ughbash: You obviously haven't seen this feat yet:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class,
you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead
of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can
choose an alternate class reward.The end result of taking it is almost identical to taking the Toughness feat and selecting +1 skill point at every level.
It cost 1 feat and you have to select the skill/hp option every level to benefit from it.
In some instance it is actually weaker than taking Toughness (multiclassed characters or characters taking alternate favoured class bonuses). It shines only if you want a character with plenty of hp and take it and Toughness at the same time. With that build it become a +1 skill point/level feat.
Precisely, I wrote the same thing before reading your post.
Focused Study: All humans are skillful, but some,
rather than being generalists, tend to specialize in a
handful of skills. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, such humans
gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat.
This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait
Wow, Focused Study is really good. I will consider it for my feint/rake Rogue. He has a somewhat feat heavy build however so I will have to ponder this for a while.
I think what ever you want to do to human is the race to choose with all these new customizable options. I am playing a gunsinger paladin and looked at catfolk and couldn't see a cat folk cowboy. maybe it is just me but the picture I have in my head is usually a humn.
In a game where non-core races are not allowed and using a 15 point buy, I'd go Dual Talent in most cases. Usually one skill point per level is not going to make or break a character and adding an additional +2 to any major attribute is a huge bonus. Especially with no -2
Indeed, the bonus feat seems to be better for the "all eggs in the same basket" approach, and Pathfinder tends to reward specialization over versatility. However, the additional ability score increase looks very sexy for MAD classes such as the monk. Yeah, I know, a dwarven monk would still be a better choice, but sometimes you just don't feel like playing a dwarf.Except without this new racial trait, I could put an ability increase into any of those areas AND take a feat like Weapon Focus, Dodge, or whatever, and have the effects STACK.
It's balanced, perhaps even a little underpowered. You really do give up a lot of the bonus.
dwarves make good monks
but whom also makes good monks, are this race in the blood of fiends companion called the onispawn tiefling.
onispawn doesn't get the Con Bonus or the Save Bonus
but they Get a STR bonus, the dwarf's darkvision, 3 energy resistances, the option for a prehensile tail, the option to take a feat to gain a stacking natural armor bonus, and a spell like ability they can swap for some cool boon, or a roll on a chart of 100 traits. one of which, is a possible free stacking toughness (option 98).
A +2 to an attribute is better than many feats (not all, of course).A +2 to Str is better than Weapon Focus with a melee weapon.
A +2 to Dex is better than Dodge.
A +2 to Con is better than Toughness.
A +2 to Int, Wis or Cha is better than Spell Focus.
+2 to an Ability Score is huge and is worth more than a feat IMO, unless your going for a specific build (specific builds can be awesome in their own rights).
+2 Str is like having Weapon Focus with all melee weapons AND gives you a +1 bonus to your CMB, CMD and damage rolls made with melee weapons AND increase your carrying capacity.
+2 Dex is like having Dodge AND Weapon Focus with all ranged weapons AND gives you a +1 bonus on your initiative rolls AND reflex saving throws.
+2 Con is like having Toughness AND gives you a +1 bonus on all your fortitude saving throws.
+2 Int is like having Spell Focus in every magic schools AND bonus spells if you are a Wizard or a Witch AND gives you +1 skill point per level.
If I want to be good at melee combat, I will already have taken the +2 to strength. A ranged or finesse fighter will already have the +2 to Dex, and a caster +2 to their casting stat. Toughness and Dodge are bad feats.
Now, "+1 (build-conditional) to AC, +1 reflex, +1 initiative" and "+1 hp/level, +1 fortitude saves" are not bad feats - if you have a feat to spare. I always have at least two feats I want that help the character do what he does, so I never have a feat to spare.
I thought this discussion seemed really late to the party and then I saw it was necro'd from about this time last year and it made a lot more sense.
I thought this discussion seemed really late to the party and then I saw it was necro'd from about this time last year and it made a lot more sense.
there's been a lot of thread necro lately ... is it Halloween already ?