How do Feral Combat Training and Monk class features interact?


Rules Questions


Feral Combat Training wrote:
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

I'm specifically looking at "effects that augment an unarmed strike." The monk class bumps up the damage dice of unarmed attacks every 4 levels, can deliver stunning blows via unarmed attacks, and "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."

Does this feat allow a monk to use all his natural attacks at full BAB plus full strength in combination with unarmed attacks?

Furthermore, "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Does this make the relevant natural attack count as a manufactured weapon for the purpose of spells? This seems like it's an insanely powerful feat in combination with synthesist or even just a 2 level Ranger dip O.o


If I may be permitted to muddy the waters a bit further:

PRD wrote:
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

If I was DMing, I would say that you can't use this feat to make a FoB with natural weapons, because to me it's clear that this wording is intended to prevent any iterative-attacks-with-natural-weapons shenanigans, which this basically is. This seems to be for things like using Stunning Fist with a bite attack. Seems like a corner case, but there you are.

Also note that the feat in question applies to ONE natural weapon, so it's not feasible anyway, really. A synthesist's 2 claws, bite, and gore (or whatever) would eat 4 feats.

EDIT: Actually read the whole feat text, which specifically states that it works with flurry. However, it still only applies to a single natural attack, and has no text allowing it to be selected more than once. Still bleh if you ask me.

Grand Lodge

See here.


First off, primary natural attacks use full str already (and secondary natural attacks use half) as per the rules on natural attacks.

Feral combat allows a character to use a natural attack and augment it with things that augment unarmed attacks.

So you could make one of your flurry of blows with a natural attack, but if the claw were made in addition to the flurry, it would not be allowed, as flurry prohibits using natural attacks in addition.

In regards to the damage increase from a monks unarmed combat, would that not step in for the natural attack until the increase progression surpassed the natural attack's base damage?

Yes, feral combat would allow the claw or whatever to deliver stunning blow.

Whether you could use a magic weapon spell to enhance a claw adjusted by feral combat seems an odder question, more suitable to individual GM interpretation, but I would say yes, mostly because I don't see a major advantage to getting this.

The fun comes in when you add combat styles to the natural attack, but with the number of feats needed per natural attack, I don't really see an imbalance.

In regards to the use of the feat, I have never had a DM say one attack only for effects that augment a natural attack- when you buffed claws, you buffed both claws, but bite got bite only- but that is what RAW seems to say.

Grand Lodge

See above link.


FAQ wrote:
but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.

So... you can do a full flurry with a single natural weapon? ;)


Well, I was planning to build a monk/ninja multiclass with just 4 levels monk, as a changling with adopted/tusked. For Monk I'd take Master of Many Styles, and I'd build Feral Weapon Combat for at least the claw attack from changling and I'd get Two-Weapon Fighting feat line from regular feat progression / a ninja trick. And Multiattack.

This would allow normal iteratives from an unarmed strike, all the two-weapon fighting additional unarmed strikes, claw claw bite, all with Sneak Attack.

It'd look like UA/UA/Claw/Claw/Bite at -2/-2/-2/-2/-2 with just two-weapon fighting and multiattack, this thread was supposed to help me decide if it was worth it to take Weapon Focus(Bite) and Feral Combat Training(Bite).

Edit: Plus extra attacks at full BAB from my ki-pool as desired

To be clear, I would NOT be using Flurry of Blows, I would be making a regular full attack using the feat Two-Weapon Fighting, regular iteratives (kicks), and all my natural attacks taken as secondary attacks per:

"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."


As Slaunyeh says: Faq!
Why not forget the changeling and the feats needed for claw, and just flurry bite attacks with two feats expended? So get bite attack, get weapon focus (bite), get Feral Combat training en bite as often as you can.

Bite/Bite/Bite/Bite/Bite :p at the right flurry modifiers

Or Slam/Slam/slam/slam/slam... whatever natural attack with high damage you can get... I am interested in FCT for a monk/druid (wild shape => natural attack...for example become a wolf and do a flurry of bites, all of which give free trip attempts after doing 1d6+1 damage...http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-mons ter-rules#TOC-Trip-Ex-
Or become an allosaurus and flurry of bites (with http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid -archetypes/saurian-shaman)... need a way of advancing the flurry of blows of muliclass characters though to really make it work

And I think stunning fist can be used with natural attacks without using any feats anyway...

Flurry of blows asks for an unarmed strike (US), which could be an improved unarmed strike (IUS)

stunning fists asks for an unarmed attack (UA)

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME! Basically, all US are UA, but not all UA are US UA is more broad... it's like: a cow (IUS) is a mammal (US), which is an animal (UA), but an animal may not be a cow, it might be something else... there are other unarmed attacks aside from unarmed strike... unarmed strike is one of the weapons in the unarmed attack group, a gauntlet (in the weapon section) is also an UA
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons

Now, ho do natural attacks or natural weapons (those are not the same either I think, but less sure) stand in relation to US and UA?

US are not natural attacks! This is specificly said!
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/strik e-unarmed
however, this doesn't tell us much... they are not cows, whooptidoo

But this does: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Standard-Actions
Quote: "Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

So natural attacks are (armed) unarmed attacks... this allows them to use the stunning fist feat.


The FAQ basically states that whatever natural attack you take FCT with is treated as a monk weapon for FoB. Unarmed strikes are a type (even if broad ranging) of weapon, natural attacks are a different type of weapon as well. The damage increase from the class ability shouldn't work on the natural weapon attack. Where FCT shines is natural attacks that inflict extra damage/rider effects. Poison, bleeds, energy drains, all those things that are normally only once or twice a round come into play more with a FoB.

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