Way of the Angry Bear (Monk (Sensei) / Druid (?)) Advice seeking.


Advice


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So the following is a nice combo:

2d10 (monk unarmed strike) -> 6d8 (Huge Wildshape) -> 12d8 (Strong Jaw)

per unarmed strike.

Sensei allows you to use your wisdom for to hit, CMD and CMB and of course as a monk it adds to your AC, ki points and will saves and as a druid will add to your spells. Wild shaping will help damage (+str) and survivability (+con) (and of course being huge doesn't hurt your CMB and CMD for maneuvers)

So I have the following questions before I start working on a build:

1.) What archetypes are best for this kind of druid?
2.) Ditto domains if you can fit domains in?
3.) How many levels of Monk and Druid should you have? You need at least 9 druid to get strong jaw and at least 2 monk to get your wisdom to hit.

And what do people in general think of this build, it looks to blossom fairly quickly, and with pounce the damage could add up nicely.

prototype00


Bear Shaman and Strength domain should be quite good.


There's a feat in Ultimate Combat (iirc) that allows you to flurry with natural attacks. You will want this feat, if you go half or higher in monk levels.


prototype00 wrote:

So the following is a nice combo:

2d10 (monk unarmed strike) -> 6d8 (Huge Wildshape) -> 12d8 (Strong Jaw)

per unarmed strike.

Sensei allows you to use your wisdom for to hit, CMD and CMB and of course as a monk it adds to your AC, ki points and will saves and as a druid will add to your spells. Wild shaping will help damage (+str) and survivability (+con) (and of course being huge doesn't hurt your CMB and CMD for maneuvers)

So I have the following questions before I start working on a build:

1.) What archetypes are best for this kind of druid?
2.) Ditto domains if you can fit domains in?
3.) How many levels of Monk and Druid should you have? You need at least 9 druid to get strong jaw and at least 2 monk to get your wisdom to hit.

And what do people in general think of this build, it looks to blossom fairly quickly, and with pounce the damage could add up nicely.

prototype00

I'm not sure that unarmed strike damage would affect wildshaped natural attacks.


Here it is:

Ultimate Combat wrote:


Feral Combat Training (Combat)

You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

So, this would require you to also have Weapon Focus: Bite, Claw, etc. For each natural attack you wanted to flurry, get unarmed damage and use Ki strike with...


Feral Combat allows you to use natural attacks for unarmed combat attacks.
Without it, you may make natural attacks, but would not do anything from your monk levels with the claw/claw/bite routine.
It's one or the other.
It requires weapon focus in the natural attack and feral combat in the natural attack before using monk stuff with natural attacks.
Taking feral combat can open up some fun effects when using combat styles, though.

Feral Combat:
Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.


Natural attacks are actually probably not going to be a super major part of the build. They aren't affected by the Sensei's add wisdom to hit ability (and this character isn't going to have a str as high as his wisdom).

It's going to be kung fu (unarmed strike) all the way, with the wild shape being easy access to huge size and strong jaw boosting it through the stratosphere.

Hmm, if I take the Monastic legacy feat, half my druid levels count as monk levels for unarmed strike damage, with a monk's robe, I can take ten levels of druid and still have full progression for unarmed strike (the base 2d10 listed above), any more and I cut into the damage.

prototype00


Also, strong jaw is a druid 4 spell, so would be available to a 7th level druid, not 9th.

Edit: And it only effect natural attacks, which unarmed attacks are not.


Cornielius wrote:
Also, strong jaw is a druid 4 spell, so would be available to a 7th level druid, not 9th.

Ah, thats keen. So very early access to goodies (2 monk / 7 druid)

prototype00


Cornielius wrote:


Edit: And it only effect natural attacks, which unarmed attacks are not.
Quote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

prototype00


A standard druid gets huge at 8th level, though the bear shaman would get huge at 6th.
Where does a huge bear come from?
Dire and grizzly are large in the beastiary and wild shape does not allow changes in size.


It doesn't specifically have to be a bear, I just named the thread that in humor. Anything that is huge form wild shape would work.

prototype00


The different shaman archtypes require you pick a kind of animal. Maybe no archetype for this character, then.


I hear menhir savant is a good archetype, and there should be a huge dinosaur if I take the Saurian Shaman archetype.

prototype00


Menhir savant gives you abundant step, which you'll get from monk.
The leyline stuff for boosting spell DCs is kinda nice.


Hmm, from the reading of feral combat training, it appears that this statement:

Quote:
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

indicates that you can apply the sensei's wisdom bonus to hit trick to it. Which is nice, but I'm possibly failing to see the application of spending two feats (WF and Feral combat training) to be really good at something that doesn't factor in addition to unarmed strikes in a full attack routine (it replaces unarmed strikes). Maybe bite or claw attacks would be worth it for the grab or rake riders.

prototype00


Monk damage augments an unarmed strike. It raises it from 1d4 to the listed damage. I would think if you had this feat, and took the form of a huge animal, then you would do huge monk damage.


Kryzbyn wrote:
Monk damage augments an unarmed strike. It raises it from 1d4 to the listed damage. I would think if you had this feat, and took the form of a huge animal, then you would do huge monk damage.

Well, of course, thats the lynchpin of this build, that all animals also have unarmed strikes and that these unarmed strikes are affected normally by their size.

The point I was making in my prior post was that, yes I could make one of my natural attacks be based off wisdom (like a bite or a claw attack), but that attack would not benefit overly much, as it can only replace unarmed strikes in a full attack or be used for its riders (grab, rake).

prototype00


Ahh.


As an aside, it looks like Saurian Shaman is coming out as a winner, mostly because of the Allosaurus, which is huge and has pounce.

Do the Saurian Shaman and the Menhir Savant mix? The Saurian Shaman changes something that the Menhir Savant replaces, so technically it should work, I suppose?

prototype00


You mean doesn't change?
You can stack archetypes as long as they don't replace the same class features.


Wait, explain again why the 2nd level sensei ability to add Wis to hit doesn't function with the wild shaped form (provided you have feral combat)...

I read the sensei ability and read the feat. Seems cut and dry to me. The wisdom can be added to unarmed strikes; feral combat says that anything that augments your unarmed strikes also augment that natural weapon (claws for example).

Should work.


He's agreeing it would work, but feels it wouldn't help his build as it would effect the natural attack, but not effect the flurry and unarmed attack.

My disagreement comes in the creature such as allosaurus having unarmed attacks at all.
My feeling would be that the animal would get natural attacks only, as humanoid martial arts training wouldn't allow a dinosaur or wolf to make unarmed attacks instead of natural attacks.
Improved unarmed combat allows an existing non-leathal attack to be leathal, and stronger in the case of the monk.

Which is why I mentioned the feral feat, as it fixes the gap and allows the unarmed feats to assist the natural attacks (which, if primary, are all full BAB).

Either way, this interpetation isn't mine to allow or disallow, but his GM's.


Well, by RAW creatures do not have unarmed attacks, they have natural attacks. They are not one and the same.


The sensei gives up flurry of blows for his "bardic performance" ability at 1st level, so that point is moot.

Kryzbyn: The feat Feral Combat Training basically allows the character to treat one natural attack (claws for example) as unarmed strikes. Things that modify unarmed strikes would thus modify the natural attacks. I'm not sure if you understood the feat or not, but if you did then I don't understand what your last post was about.


Mountain Druid.
It takes longer to pay off, but eventually you are a huge giant ALL the time. Your unarmed would be mighty.

I actually like this better for weapon users, because the generic polymorph rules state that when you change forms to a form similar to your own, your items do not meld but instead alter to fit you. SO, a normal sized axe becomes a huge axe etc.


@ Foghammer: I was speaking to the OP lumping natural attacks and unarmed strikes into the same basket. If he was not, then disregard.
I know what the feat does, I linked it above and suggested it :)


Kryzbyn wrote:

@ Foghammer: I was speaking to the OP lumping natural attacks and unarmed strikes into the same basket. If he was not, then disregard.

I know what the feat does, I linked it above and suggested it :)

Indeed. Carry on then. :D


Cornielius wrote:


My disagreement comes in the creature such as allosaurus having unarmed attacks at all.
My feeling would be that the animal would get natural attacks only, as humanoid martial arts training wouldn't allow a dinosaur or wolf to make unarmed attacks instead of natural attacks.

Not a fan of awakened animal Monks then I take it?

Anyway, by the time this character can wild shape, he/she will already be four levels into the druid class, thats more than enough time to adapt his/her style to fighting as an animal, he/she is not just jumping into it. (after all a lot of martial arts originate from copying and refining animal movements, why should not the process flow the other way?)

Quote:
Well, by RAW creatures do not have unarmed attacks, they have natural attacks. They are not one and the same.

This character isn't gaining an unarmed attack because he becomes a creature, he/she is getting one because they are a monk.

Also, you toss the word RAW around, but I haven't seen anything prohibiting an animal with a reasonable intelligence score (easily doable with the druid/ranger class or as a human with the right racial trait) taking the improved unarmed strike feat and fighting with skill instead of savagery.

prototype00

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Is Druid a must? A cleric of a nature god may work.
If you choose Urazra, you could take Crusader's Flurry, and flurry with a claw(or spiked gauntlet). Nab a Bear Pelt of the Bonebreaker(only 3,300gp) to polymorph into a Brown Bear and use your flurry while in Bear form. You will only need a single cleric level dip. You can also still use unarmed strikes while in Bear form.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Is Druid a must? A cleric of a nature god may work.

If you choose Urazra, you could take Crusader's Flurry, and flurry with a claw(or spiked gauntlet). Nab a Bear Pelt of the Bonebreaker(only 3,300gp) to polymorph into a Brown Bear and use your flurry while in Bear form. You will only need a single cleric level dip. You can also still use unarmed strikes while in Bear form.

Cleric would work too, and I was thinking about it, but its harder to pull size shennanigans with them. With druids, you get to be huge size at level 8 (level 6 if you're the right kind of shaman), whereas I don't think clerics can do anything similar. Also, strong jaw is a druid spell.

Simple damage calculation, lvl 10 character (3 monk (sensei) / 7 druid (Saurian Shaman)

1d10 unarmed strike damage (3 levels of monk + monk's robe + monastic legacy) -> 3d8 (allosaurus, large animal) -> 6d8 (strong jaw, two size increases).

Thats not bad for 10th level (two iterative attacks, more if you take two weapon fighting)

I'm leaning towards an even split of 10 monk/10 druid as the higher level druid spells aren't instilling a sense of "Must have them!" in me.

prototype00


No offense ment, just trying to keep the terminology seperate.


This reminds me of this video and this video.

Its all a good idea though, prototype00. I don't have a lot more to add that hasn't already been said, though. Keeping my eye open for the full build thread.

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