I'm curious if 3.5 Loyalist did actually read Jade Regent.Of course not. His very first post in this thread indicates so.
Yeah, that is right. I haven't read all of Jade Regent yet. Just some early stuff, characterisation, overviews. Now commenting on this thread isn't an exam, I was responding to Fyre and the problems as they were detailed.
We have some defenders, we have some critics.
Well, here's my angle.....from ROTRL....
maybe minor ROTRL spoilers;
** spoiler omitted **
Jorah Mormont. Ah poor guy.
How she comes across is up to the dm magnuskn and how her characters is written (does she have any flaws or weaknesses, is she better than a lot of the party?). She is more than capable, doesn't have much in the way of personality or personal flaws (apart from being a stoic bard without much emotion), but has a troubled family and backstory of difficulties. I've read a bit, the early Jade Regent material stuff, and it seems to me she really could go that way. Now most players shouldn't get annoyed at her, because as a bard there are certain numbers and tasks she won't be so great at. Skills? She will have a lot of that covered.
Are you really getting offended ("asinine comments") of someone's opinions (whom you don't know) of a fictional character?
Don't worry bro, I will review the books when I get around to them, and I'm sure we will bitterly disagree again. Such is life and people being rubbed the wrong way by characters and criticism.
She is more than capable, doesn't have much in the way of personality or personal flaws (apart from being a stoic bard without much emotion)
If that was your impression of Ameiko, I would like to know what you have read? She is far from being "stoic" and she has personal flaws (like being hot-headed and sometimes jumping into situations that are over her capabilities.)
This ties us back to page 1 and the start of the discussion. By stoic I am more meaning so in control and capable it almost hurts--more a great overall competency than philosophical stoicism. Course if she conquers all or always win, will this hot-headedness really come out?
I would also like to put a question of my own, when is she hot-headed and one to jump into situations that are over her capabilities? If she is beautiful wonderful and talented, there might not be much that is above her abilities (as Joana indicated from their play through). If this holds, then the weakness is false and she just lost a defining characteristic.
Making leader (but not to decide everything for the party) npcs for an adventure path does seem tough. If she was inept, she would surely encounter criticsm on these boards for that, though she wouldn't be being called a Mary Sue.
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So, how have people made Ameiko a rounded, like-able character who is not a 'Mary Sue' (whatever that means to you)?
I would go for stubborn and proud, which helps to explain her getting into so much trouble and suits a person destined to rule.
Incidentally, when the players go adventuring with NPCs, I favour letting the players control the NPCs' major decisions and combat actions during most encounters.
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Protip from somebody who works at academia: No amount of rhetoric, flowery vocabulary and witty intellectualisms do not make up for lack of cold, hard knowledge on what you are going on about.
Incorrect. As long as your audience has no more knowledge than you do, you'll do just fine.
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Protip from somebody who works at academia: No amount of rhetoric, flowery vocabulary and witty intellectualisms do not make up for lack of cold, hard knowledge on what you are going on about.Incorrect. As long as your audience has no more knowledge than you do, you'll do just fine.
That's why I said academia, not politics :)
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Back to one of the initial things that sparked much of this later discussion:
A "screw the NPC, usurp the throne yourselves" plot is indeed a legitimate potential way the game could be played. The part I take issue with 3.5 is the conspiring against the DM part, and trying - intentionally - to blindside him/her with this plot to the point of where s/he won't see it coming. I would rather recommend that, if this is indeed the road the players wish to take, that they discuss it out of game with the DM so that s/he can prepare accordingly.
If the DM truly is Mary Suing the NPCs, and thumbs-down the plot for no reason other than "we can't continue without her", then the problem is not the NPC so much as it is the DM's portrayal of her, as has been stated. However, a good DM won't have that be an issue, and if the players still want to be backstabbing bastards then let them.
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Ameiko CAN come off as a pre-destined character that must needs be infinitely lovable and draped in plot-armour.
Ameiko DOES NOT HAVE to come off as a pre-destined character that must needs be infinitely lovable and draped in plot-armour.
GM's could find themselves unwittingly presenting Ameiko this way, and so this topic is a good thing to at least touch on. []...it is about preparing for running Jade Regent in such a way that players will have a good time rubbing elbows with Ameiko and the other NPC's. And preparing it in a manner that GM's can present the modules and NPC's in a way that is most fun for them as well.
That's right.
Only the individual GMs can truly know their players well enough to decide if working for a 'destined' NPC will be a dealbreaker.
This is not about proving she deserves some label or not.
It's more that this thread can serve as a caution to GMs who are planning on running the AP, that they can see the title, read a few of the posts and think more carefully about how they intend to portray her.
It's a good idea in general, to evaluate what kind of players you have, and what sort of gaming they enjoy; even more so when the intended campaign contains a strong theme (heavy urban/political for CotCT; long periods in the Underdark for SD; potentially aimless sandbox for Kingmaker; long periods at sea for S&S,...).
Jade Regent already has one theme that some players won't like; the Eastern flavour isn't to everyone's taste, so GM's should already be watching out for players who are scornful of what they consider 'stupid anime'.
If the players also have a history of playing loners, being antagonistic to NPCs, working against what they see as DMPCs, deliberately sabotaging anything they consider a 'railroad'...
...then that GM should think twice about putting the PCs on a weeks-long overland caravan trip, to 'fantasy Japan', squashed together with numerous NPCS, all of whom are more competent than the PCs, with the aim of making one of them Empress and lording it over them.
They should consider altering elements of the AP, altering the presentation of some NPCs, running a different AP, having a long talk with their players about preferred style, and/or maybe as a last resort, if styles truly clash, agreeing (without blame) that everyone would be better off if some people gamed with a different group.
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Protip from somebody who works at academia: No amount of rhetoric, flowery vocabulary and witty intellectualisms do not make up for lack of cold, hard knowledge on what you are going on about.
Unless you're an English major. Then that's pretty much how you earn a high grade.
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Agreed. Removed posts and locking thread. Try this topic again without the inflammatory accusations.