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Honestly, if I were to see any of the four NPCs as big darned heroes, I'd probably expect it from Shalelu. She's the one introduced as a badass from day one in Rise of the Runelords, while Ameiko basically tapped out of adventuring because it was too much for her. But to each their own, I guess.
Shalelu is definitely the coolest NPC imho. I have three PC's so I told them they could pick one companion everytime they leave the caravan (like you would in a JRPG), so far Shalelu is the most popular.
Honestly, if I were to see any of the four NPCs as big darned heroes, I'd probably expect it from Shalelu. She's the one introduced as a badass from day one in Rise of the Runelords, while Ameiko basically tapped out of adventuring because it was too much for her. But to each their own, I guess.Shalelu is definitely the coolest NPC imho. I have three PC's so I told them they could pick one companion everytime they leave the caravan (like you would in a JRPG), so far Shalelu is the most popular.
Her rack is bigger than Ameiko's, and she doesn't have the "Damsel in distress" thing Ameiko has
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Her rack is bigger than Ameiko's, and she doesn't have the "Damsel in distress" thing Ameiko hasHonestly, if I were to see any of the four NPCs as big darned heroes, I'd probably expect it from Shalelu. She's the one introduced as a badass from day one in Rise of the Runelords, while Ameiko basically tapped out of adventuring because it was too much for her. But to each their own, I guess.Shalelu is definitely the coolest NPC imho. I have three PC's so I told them they could pick one companion everytime they leave the caravan (like you would in a JRPG), so far Shalelu is the most popular.
She loses at least two cup sizes in the second adventure.
She loses at least two cup sizes in the second adventure.Her rack is bigger than Ameiko's, and she doesn't have the "Damsel in distress" thing Ameiko hasHonestly, if I were to see any of the four NPCs as big darned heroes, I'd probably expect it from Shalelu. She's the one introduced as a badass from day one in Rise of the Runelords, while Ameiko basically tapped out of adventuring because it was too much for her. But to each their own, I guess.Shalelu is definitely the coolest NPC imho. I have three PC's so I told them they could pick one companion everytime they leave the caravan (like you would in a JRPG), so far Shalelu is the most popular.
NOOOooo!!
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She loses at least two cup sizes in the second adventure.Artist's rendition or critical hit?
Artist's rendition. I think James said somewhere that her depiction in the first book was a lot more well-endowed than she was meant to be, but they didn't have time to send it back to the artists and have the picture redrawn (which is also the same reason she has "human" eyes in her depiction in book 1, and elf eyes in book 2).
Personalitiless may be the wrong word. You may be thinking of "nice", "helpful" or "not extremely vulgar", but those aren't a lack of personality. (Sounds like you have access to the S&S books, but for the sake of others I'll put GM-knowledge stuff in spoiler tags here:)
If she appears to have no personality in an actual game that's because the GM isn't playing her with personality, or perhaps doesn't know how to create personality without a quirk such as "swears a lot" (or is unwilling to make any attempt to try and do so). In the printed material however, she's got personality.
Shalelu is definitely the coolest NPC imho. I have three PC's so I told them they could pick one companion everytime they leave the caravan (like you would in a JRPG), so far Shalelu is the most popular.
I found her to be the most difficult to RP, actually, since she is described as somewhat of a stoic person.
I'm about to run this one, and the players actually want to run some of the pregens (amended a bit to be first level). I loved the way all the Traits tie into one another.
I think the 'rebellious secret princess' is a classic trope more than a Mary Sue to be honest.
Anyway, looks like the players decided Ameiko and Shaelu each have a huge-but-unrevealed crush on each other, so it should be an interesting game!
Personalitiless may be the wrong word. You may be thinking of "nice", "helpful" or "not extremely vulgar", but those aren't a lack of personality. (Sounds like you have access to the S&S books, but for the sake of others I'll put GM-knowledge stuff in spoiler tags here:)
** spoiler omitted **
However she still strikes me as a little flat, or "white bread", and I don't feel like she adds much to the adventure. If someone's going to be nice to my PCs I'd rather it be someone who's a bit rough around the edges, like Fishguts or Rosie.
I actually REALLY like her backstory, I think it's excellently written in it's simplicity, but it seems to me something that would suit a PLAYER character for this campaign. Wormwood Mutiny seems to be all about throwing the players in the deep end, and I'm not sure if I want to throw Sandara in there with them.
I'm also partially worried about how close she is to the kind of characters I'm expecting from my younger players, a spunky pirate chick. Her art may be playing a big part of this. I feel like Scourge's sleaziness could just as easily be directed at the players instead.
Just a matter of taste, and I'm not going to argue the point at all, I'm just interested in discussing the matter. I really want to be sold on her, and maybe she'll come to life at the table, but right now i'm not so sure.
^Ah, I didn't realize you hadn't looked at her backstory until now (or rather that you`d glossed over it and missed some stuff). I can understand the initial view there then. Sandara's personality doesn't really get emphasized much elsewhere in the book, so I guess you've really got to scrutinize every bit of the book to catch everything sometimes.
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If Ameiko was a Mary Sue, she probably wouldn't spend so much time being kidnapped or getting put into a coma. Nor would she need the PCs' help in getting things done.Correct.
In fact, I actually think she spends far TOO much time in a coma or being kidnapped. It's a fine line to walk between making a key, important NPC be helpful and respectable and strong, and from not dominating the game and being the star.
I have to agree - we're in Chapter Three and I feel like I never really get to interact with Ameiko or many of the rest of the caravaneers; we're usually off doing something else without them. I don't think my "+1 to hit on foes threatening Ameiko" has procced even once. Of course that's a lot of NPCs for a DM to run while dealing with us so I understand why they sink into the background a lot... Spivey helped us kill a dragon though!
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This, or, in short, one of those obnoxious tropes that are used and created by critics, nerds and gamers to (web)publicly rip apart a particular work of fiction they dislike while, at the same time, trying to avoid any notion of personal taste.
This, or, in short, one of those obnoxious tropes that are used and created by critics, nerds and gamers to (web)publicly rip apart a particular work of fiction they dislike while, at the same time, trying to avoid any notion of personal taste.
Maybe I'm failing to spot sarcasm in text form here, but the actual concept of a Mary Sue isn't about characters that one doesn't like. It often gets misused that way, yes, but the original was a parody of self-insert characters. It's a character written to be extremely well-loved and amazing, with few to no "real" or plot-relevant flaws. Essentially a parody of author wish-fulfillment.
Complaining about shows (or in this case characters) that you don't like is another trope entirely. Even if people often do try to use Mary Sue as part of that complaining.
From another thread ...
Ameiko Kaijitsu. And that wasn't the GM; it was the players. She's such a Mary Sue her reputation preceded her. I was running a wizard with tricked-out Knowledges and had an awful run of dice where I couldn't make a DC 15 check with a +9 bonus, and all the other PCs were like, "So what? We'll just go ask Ameiko; she knows everything! And she's beautiful and talented and wonderful!" I came close to quitting that game, too, as the whole adventure hook seems to be "drop everything at Ameiko's whim to go make her a princess just because you all love her so much."Interresting question: Is Ameiko Kaijitsu a "Mary Sue" type character?
Good question, she clearly is a Mary Sue. I can't stand "destined" characters with no flaws.
Ameiko needs to be stabbed to death and impersonated through disguise and sorcery. Probably she would be impervious to such attempts.
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I have to agree - we're in Chapter Three and I feel like I never really get to interact with Ameiko or many of the rest of the caravaneers; we're usually off doing something else without them. I don't think my "+1 to hit on foes threatening Ameiko" has procced even once. Of course that's a lot of NPCs for a DM to run while dealing with us so I understand why they sink into the background a lot... Spivey helped us kill a dragon though!If Ameiko was a Mary Sue, she probably wouldn't spend so much time being kidnapped or getting put into a coma. Nor would she need the PCs' help in getting things done.Correct.
In fact, I actually think she spends far TOO much time in a coma or being kidnapped. It's a fine line to walk between making a key, important NPC be helpful and respectable and strong, and from not dominating the game and being the star.
You know what needs to be done? Plot with the other players, tell the dm nothing of this, and when it gets in deep, hand her over to her enemies for a massive reward. Make it a tragedy, it will be beautiful. If the dm goes with it and asks through her "why oh why?". Go with the simple, "you used us, rarely talked to us, showed very little respect for your protectors. You won't get to rule, your life is over, game over princess. Have fun!"
Then take a picture of the dm's face.
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I have to agree - we're in Chapter Three and I feel like I never really get to interact with Ameiko or many of the rest of the caravaneers; we're usually off doing something else without them. I don't think my "+1 to hit on foes threatening Ameiko" has procced even once. Of course that's a lot of NPCs for a DM to run while dealing with us so I understand why they sink into the background a lot... Spivey helped us kill a dragon though!If Ameiko was a Mary Sue, she probably wouldn't spend so much time being kidnapped or getting put into a coma. Nor would she need the PCs' help in getting things done.Correct.
In fact, I actually think she spends far TOO much time in a coma or being kidnapped. It's a fine line to walk between making a key, important NPC be helpful and respectable and strong, and from not dominating the game and being the star.
You know what needs to be done? Plot with the other players, tell the dm nothing of this, and when it gets in deep, hand her over to her enemies for a massive reward. Make it a tragedy, it will be beautiful. If the dm goes with it and asks through her "why oh why?". Go with the simple, "you used us, rarely talked to us, showed very little respect for your protectors. You won't get to rule, your life is over, game over princess. Have fun!"
Then take a picture of the dm's face.
Dick moves seldom are a sound way to resolve conflicts.
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...?
So angry Gorbacz.
It is like this, it is the players' game too. If they decide to trade her in to the big bads and try and profit from that, then the dm can roll with it, have this lead to new outcomes and a change in the story, or they can end the adventure in a huff. Stepping off the rails can be ever so much fun, and this is meant to be entertainment.
Live free, die young, let Ameiko "the Mary Sue" die first.
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...?
So angry Gorbacz.It is like this, it is the players' game too. If they decide to trade her in to the big bads and try and profit from that, then the dm can roll with it, have this lead to new outcomes and a change in the story, or they can end the adventure in a huff. Stepping off the rails can be ever so much fun, and this is meant to be entertainment.
Live free, die young, let Ameiko "the Mary Sue" die first.
Yeah, so much fun to ruin an AP to troll your GM. I bet he'll feel so good about spending 120 bucks on the books ( and more for shipping ), so that you can trample on his campaign for imagined slights against your fragile ego.
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Yeah, so much fun to ruin an AP to troll your GM. I bet he'll feel so good about spending 120 bucks on the books ( and more for shipping ), so that you can trample on his campaign for imagined slights against your fragile ego....?
So angry Gorbacz.It is like this, it is the players' game too. If they decide to trade her in to the big bads and try and profit from that, then the dm can roll with it, have this lead to new outcomes and a change in the story, or they can end the adventure in a huff. Stepping off the rails can be ever so much fun, and this is meant to be entertainment.
Live free, die young, let Ameiko "the Mary Sue" die first.
:)
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Posting blind and not reading the thread because I'm playing Jade Regent but this thread keeps popping up in the sidebar and the premise irks me.
"Mary Sue" has been so diluted by the Interbutts that the only thing it reliably means these days is "character I don't like".
I would be hard pressed to call any of the NPCs we've been hanging with in this campaign even remotely "Mary Sue"-ish by the original definition of the term. Also, Ameiko's been freakin' awesome in our campaign.
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Oh, I know he is trolling for attention. But, wow, it still makes me angry to consider the idea that I could have the bad luck to get such an inconsiderate player. Luckily I play with friends who are decent people.
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This, or, in short, one of those obnoxious tropes that are used and created by critics, nerds and gamers to (web)publicly rip apart a particular work of fiction they dislike while, at the same time, trying to avoid any notion of personal taste.Maybe I'm failing to spot sarcasm in text form here, but the actual concept of a Mary Sue isn't about characters that one doesn't like. It often gets misused that way, yes, but the original was a parody of self-insert characters. It's a character written to be extremely well-loved and amazing, with few to no "real" or plot-relevant flaws. Essentially a parody of author wish-fulfillment.
Complaining about shows (or in this case characters) that you don't like is another trope entirely. Even if people often do try to use Mary Sue as part of that complaining.
The problem with this is that almost every fictional character is defined by someone as a Mary Sue because he (by choice or not) fixates so much on the characteristics that could be wish-fulfilment (aka every positive trait or charming flaw).
As you wrote (and I linked to) the original concept was a [b]parody[/url] of self inserted, wish-fulfilment characters, taking every single of those traits far over the edge. That Mary Sue is now thrown around for every other Character in literature or gaming should be considered a parody in and of itself.
Tropes like these are abused so often and sometimes tropes are created for only a few examples, see the TVTropes site for plentyful examples) that is seems impossible for every creative writer (and if analyzed with 'common' tropes in mind pretty much every writer in the history of the written word) not ta fall into a few dozen 'trope traps', making the ever growing 'tropes to be avoided list' pretty much moot.
So yes, while you did fail your sense sarcasm role (the bonus for linking to the actual definition didn't help as much as I hoped), my post also contained some ire at the all to common over- and abuse of tropes.
[rant over]
Sorry if I did step on anybodys toes, I didn't mean to, but I do feel better now...
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Ah text sarcasm, it's always so hard to spot. >_>
Anyways, it is fair to say that it gets used a lot, and that any character could potentially qualify as wish fulfillment, but I think what's more important than whether they can be wish fulfillment is whether they actually are such.
Which raises the question that i think somebody earlier mentioned: Is it likely that James Jacobs wishes to be a tavern-keeping princess who ends up kidnapped and comatose a lot?
My guess is probably not.
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I can see from the throng an answers to this thread that Ameiko is not a "Mary Sue" by most definitions; but that handling her (and Shalelu Andosana for that matter) well is very important to avoid that impression.
Am I reading you correctly?
I think this is a pretty decent way of coming at the topic, and worth requoting for sanity's sake :-). We certainly don't need to turn this into a slap-fest.
Ameiko CAN come off as a pre-destined character that must needs be infinitely lovable and draped in plot-armour.
Ameiko DOES NOT HAVE to come off as a pre-destined character that must needs be infinitely lovable and draped in plot-armour.
GM's could find themselves unwittingly presenting Ameiko this way, and so this topic is a good thing to at least touch on. But it is less about whether or not one presentation of Ameiko is objectively superior to another (no need to treat it as a source of 'badwrongfun' or argue somantics of a fictional and highly nonstandardized label). Rather, it is about preparing for running Jade Regent in such a way that players will have a good time rubbing elbows with Ameiko and the other NPC's. And preparing it in a manner that GM's can present the modules and NPC's in a way that is most fun for them as well.
Decide if it is even an issue for you/your group, then adjust/react accordingly so that mass amounts of fun and monster slaying can ensue. Be excellent to each other and...PARTY ON DUDES
Whoa, whoa, calm down. As was said earlier, there's no need to turn this into a slap fight.
People are entitled to have and voice opinions, but there's no need to outright insult others when doing so. It's fine to dislike TV Tropes, fanfiction, and anything else you want to, but that can be done in a much more polite way.
Parody Sue fits more than plain Mary Sue.
Creative Director
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If you see someone posting in a way that you deem to be disruptive or otherwise troubling... hit the flag button and move on. Don't fall for the flame bait. Just flag and move on.
Those flags are how we are alerted to possible trouble, and when we (aka the web team) see them, we handle them on a case by case basis.
Calling TV Tropes silly is not an insult.
I said nothing disparaging about fan fiction or it's authors. I didn't even say anything insulting, disparaging, dismissive, or even mean about people who write such characters let alone Paula Smith's parody of the practice "A Trekkie's Tale", which is the source of the name.
I was more concerned with your characterization of people who use TV Tropes as "cynical hipster [CENSORED] who think of themselves as critics" actually. Someone who uses TV tropes could get quite insulted by that.
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If you want an RPG example of an actual Mary Sue NPC, you can check out the old Time of Troubles modules for the Forgotten Realms. Midnight is everything the original poster claims Ameiko to be, except that the module actually tells the DM to play it that way, as opposed to Jade Regent where there is nothing in the adventure suggesting that Ameiko should leave the PCs in awe. Midnight was the chosen special one for the entire series, had powers that the PCs could not possess, didn't have to worry about wild magic surges, could cast spells without her spellbook, was constantly talked about by the NPCs as being a special little snowflake, and was supposed to be immediately accepted into the group despite just showing up and forcing herself in. I'd hate to have played a magic-user in those modules, since such a character would have been useless due to wild magic while Midnight dominated in every way.
It's hard to get a character like that in an adventure module, since the game relies so much on a competent DM. I don't think I've seen many examples worse than Midnight, although Elminster in those very same adventures comes awfully close.
And if I was an admin here, I would probably ban 3.5 Loyalist for his/her incessant bashing of Paizo and paizo related things.
The defensiveness is almost stunning (passed the dc, barely). The guy I responded to aired his grievance with the character, and from what I've read, yeah, she can be a real annoyance, and if a dm runs it a certain way, may not interact with her protectors very much. The protectors may grow distant or come to resent her, this can easily happen and be spot on for the game if the characters are not dutiful or trustworthy. Now if the adventurers love/respect her, of course they will follow her into the gates of kami, but if they don't they may indeed turn her over for profit and enjoyment. If it goes against the adventure path, so be it! Paizo adventures aren't a religion angry folks, the dm and players will do what they will and they can have a hell of a lot of fun changing it up. This is roleplaying, not a railroaded shooter (go here, save these people, game over if someone important dies).
Now when they turn, if they turn, is also up to them. They might do it right at the end and play through most of the books, or at the middle to take it in a new direction, it is entirely their choice, and the dm can also have input (e.g. "don't do that guys" or "that is cool actually, new stuff next week, I'll do some prep"). This might not be the giant cause of offence some of you think it is, it might just shock the dm without hurting their feelings. There is still the Oriental setting to play in, things to fight, areas to explore and npcs to work with or against. Turning on your employer and joining the dark side doesn't have to end the game.
Did we get all that? Roleplaying people, a betrayal game is a roleplaying possibility.
Indeed. Funny ideas "see ya Ameiko!". Or the players withdraw from a dangerous combat, mock fight eachother and let her get surrounded and killed. GAME OVER, or is it?
Or perhaps even more exciting in the thriller dimension, the players forcefully become her handlers/puppeteers, the power behind the eventual throne. They let her know that her treatment of them is not fine, and with their new growth in power, it is they who will now call the shots. She can object and die now, or she can fall back in line and head to the next area and task nominated by them. With a smile on their faces and a "do keep this in mind lady" on their lips. This puppeteering really works for an enchanter or wizard/a cleric determined to spread a new faith. The bodyguards cannot be trusted!
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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Well, here's my angle.....from ROTRL....
maybe minor ROTRL spoilers;
Hudak, my shoanti fighter,.....totally in love with Ameiko; he's based sort of on Fafhrd and Titus Pullo (although not as big a lady's man as ole Titus); he's this kinda happy go lucky guy who totally rulez in battle, but off the field....he's got the Summer Glau hoverhand epic fail going on (heh heh 10 charisma) and Ameiko just "likes him as a friend." So now he kinda regrets chopping her brother in half, and gets all epic emo because he's totally denied, and like, eternally banished to the friend zone.
It's funny, man. Good stuff for laughs.
If you want an RPG example of an actual Mary Sue NPC, you can check out the old Time of Troubles modules for the Forgotten Realms. Midnight is everything the original poster claims Ameiko to be, except that the module actually tells the DM to play it that way, as opposed to Jade Regent where there is nothing in the adventure suggesting that Ameiko should leave the PCs in awe. Midnight was the chosen special one for the entire series, had powers that the PCs could not possess, didn't have to worry about wild magic surges, could cast spells without her spellbook, was constantly talked about by the NPCs as being a special little snowflake, and was supposed to be immediately accepted into the group despite just showing up and forcing herself in. I'd hate to have played a magic-user in those modules, since such a character would have been useless due to wild magic while Midnight dominated in every way.
It's hard to get a character like that in an adventure module, since the game relies so much on a competent DM. I don't think I've seen many examples worse than Midnight, although Elminster in those very same adventures comes awfully close.
DING! I bought all the ToT modules and the novels(GET OFF MY LAWN!) and unfortunatly never cottoned on to the entire Mary Sue thing. The novels wern't so bad about it since the main characters were pretty much all on the same level.
The mods however had the PCs trailing along behind Mightnight with a almost perfect copy of the novels being played out. Some highlights.1.Shadowdale fight against Bane avatar+Elminster. Ends with characters getting thrown into prison and pretty much heading for the chopping block until rescued. Unless the DM is willing to rewrite things so the PCs can sucessfuly argue their case for not killing Elminster(ha) they have to go along.
2.Theft and destruction of Midnight's spellbook. HOOboy! COnsidering how PCs are touchy about their belongings those halflings would be filleted as soon as the PCs caught up with them.
3 Another annoyances such as Midnight chickenblocking the PCs who want to dispose of some annoying NPCs who have been harassing them.
4.Big end scene with Helm,Elminster etc showing up so the players have their thumbs up their noses.
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I bought all the ToT modules and the novels(GET OFF MY LAWN!) and unfortunately never cottoned on to the entire Mary Sue thing. The novels weren't so bad about it since the main characters were pretty much all on the same level.
The mods however had the PCs trailing along behind Midnight with a almost perfect copy of the novels being played out.
I bought all of those as well - I've still got the modules (although I gave the books away as gifts to departing players at the end of the campaign). I kept (most of) the main storyline, but dialed Midnight back considerably (and downplayed Elminster and several of the other NPCs) so that the players felt they were at least contributing to a lot of the important decisions. I think I got it mostly right - they helped Midnight because they liked her (and because they were mostly a bunch of nice guys), but they were somewhat surprised at what finally came about for her.
It's fairly straightforward if you play Midnight as more surprised by the way magic is changing, and initially mostly unaware of her abilities.
I'm curious if 3.5 Loyalist did actually read Jade Regent.
Of course not. His very first post in this thread indicates so.
I think you are running off in a wrong direction. As you said yourself ...
The guy I responded to aired his grievance with the character, and from what I've read, yeah, she can be a real annoyance, and if a dm runs it a certain way, may not interact with her protectors very much.
I bolded the important section.
What I have found that it is a potential pitfall with this AP. Yes, so the GM needs to handler these NPCs with special care.
In other words, as I said earlier. She is not a "Mary Sue," but could become one if handled poorly by a GM.
But, as written, Ameiko (nor any of the other core NPCs) is not intended to overshadow, outshine, or "railroad" the player charcters.