A very diverse race and character creation

The humans of the PFRPG core setting are a very mixed bag. The PFRPG uses the GM's discretion and a couple of small points or feats to sort them out. If you know the IP, you immediately get a sense for what a duelist from Brevoy, an Ulfen sea captain, and an aspiring Hellknight all look like because the setting's human characters are so well defined in terms of their fictional cultures and relationships.

In the PFRPG, the Core Rules really don't give you a lot of mechanical wiggle room to differentiate these folks, but generally they don't have to. The GM is going to take this sort of thing into account automatically, and characters should react to the individuals they meet.

My main question is: what can be done with this in PFO? I've my thoughts (obviously), but hope to hear new ideas, dissent, agreement, and everything else.

Should the human ethnic groups be treated as different races/subraces?
I am initially inclined to suggest they should, as this would allow for a few things. First, as the player creates their avatar, the engine could steer them toward creating an individual who resembles that particular ethnic group's typical physical features, creating a unified visual template within the game. It could also help mitigate the issue of names which has been already argued three or four times; a player who selects to play a Varisian could be presented with a list of twenty suggested names while not forced to take one. Second, the choice of many types of humans would allow players to familiarize themselves a bit with the world if they choose to. Third, a character's ethnicity could influence their affiliations with particular factions and groups, giving a starting point for tying the characters into larger conflicts within the game. A character from Taldor, for example, may have a penalty with the Church of Sarenrae, given their in-world history. Such penalties should not be insuperable. Fourth, it creates more diverse choices to sway players not to dismiss humans as “boring,” which encourages them to create a more PF-ish feel where humanity is the dominant race. Fifth, it raises the possibility of language being used as an in-game variable; some characters may not speak or read/write the same languages (this in and of itself could spawn its own discussion).

Should the human ethnic groups have mechanical differences?
Here I am a lot less inclined to suggest an answer. Balancing more races becomes more and more difficult, but it certainly acts as a carrot, not a stick, for players to consider human factions. The Elder Scroll series, for example, has always used mechanics to help differentiate its different ethnic groups. Importantly, the voice stabs, accents, and different baseline appearance used by the different groups helped create the sense of very different ethnic groups living in close proximity.

Of course, there are some serious unfortunate implications on anything that sounds like, “This group of humans is better at something than other people.”

What should count as the human subgroups?
I'd be inclined to have every character nominate a homeland, regardless of race, and a human should have their subgroup. For example, the iconic Valeros would be a Cheliaxan from Andoran.

I would suggest using an all carrots, no sticks, approach to having folks create their thematically appropriate humans. For example, a player who likes the idea behind the Ulfen and the Lands of the Linnorm Kings could be given a default avatar appearance and suggested names which fit that theme, even though they can choose to do something else. The player can then also be suggested appropriate religions, starting outfits, alignment, voice stabs, and whatever else is used to represent the character. Again, no forced choices, just suggestions. This helps strike a compromise between the folks who are pushing for immersion and keeping close to the source material as well as those who hate the idea of limiting a player's choices.

I'm generally sympathetic to this approach, but I would advise caution. I remember trying to play a Sorcerer (Wizard? Mage?) in Vanguard, where the obviously best choice was Kojani, but I didn't like the Kojani appearance.

For a lot of people, creating something close to what they already have in their head is far more important than creating something that fits in with the existing Pathfinder lore.

That said, I'm all for lots of different choices based on Culture (not Race). In fact, I think a lot of the Racial Bonuses really only make sense if the character actually grew up in that Culture as well. But those choices should by and large by minor to insignificant, while still allowing maximal freedom to the player to design the character of their choice.

how about using background racial character traits as a carrot?

Ethnic groups should have different advantages and disadvantages, after all, there are genetic differences that are more than appearance between RL human races.

I'm a big fan of racial traits, and SWG is a good place to look at how to handle them. Their biggest impact should be early game, making up for the lack of skills. And only be a deciding factor when fighting your mirror image minus the racial traits.

With PFO there is a great opportunity to have fun with racial traits because of the nature of the game. If the game goes as I think it will from the implications from Ryan, abilities will more or less all be equal, everything will be based on a balancing equation(if you make the weapon heavier, it deals more damage on hit than the base model, but it has a lower attack rate, if you make a weapon lighter it deals less damage per hit but has a higher attack rate.) So you can even have racial activated abilities easier than some themepark does.

Every aspect of a character should be linked into some active component. If they were a rock climber, they get a bonus to rock climbing, if they were raised by a fisherman, they get a bonus to fishing. IF you want to play a race that is not inclined to spell casting, you should get a penalty, this will not limit you, it will just make your journey harder if you want to fight nature.

For a lot of people, creating something close to what they already have in their head is far more important than creating something that fits in with the existing Pathfinder lore.

Of course, which I rightly concede. If I may, however, there is another viewpoint. Take this as a Devil's Advocate position: Golarion is a setting with an established lore. It's Pathfinder Online, not Generic Kingdom Simulator Online. One might as well enter a Dark Millenium forum and complain that they want to be an Imperial Guard officer, but can't select Tau as a race if they do. Or complain all the glowing laser swords and laser pistols in The Old Republic look dumb and should be replaced with solid projectile weapons and vibrating monomolecular katanas (in case the -other- GW's IP is unfamiliar to you).

That said, I'm all for lots of different choices based on Culture (not Race). In fact, I think a lot of the Racial Bonuses really only make sense if the character actually grew up in that Culture as well. But those choices should by and large by minor to insignificant, while still allowing maximal freedom to the player to design the character of their choice.

Respectfully, I peaked at your past posts and it seemed like you're here for PFO, not PFRPG at all. Racial differences between (non-human) races in PFRPG are pretty deeply entrenched. Some are "biological" (dwarves can see in the dark as part of being a dwarf) and others are learned (dwarves gain a bonus against certain races they have ancestral grudges with or train to do battle against). However, racial differences are absolutely trivial compared to class, level, ability, magical items, and skills for determining a character's capacities. Are you suggesting removing the racial tweaks of the non-human races (something I am less in favor of) or eliminating human racial differences while keeping "national" ones (something I'd be much more inclined to favor - "racial differences" is a rather ugly little hold-over in fantasy from Tolkien)?

I agree with what I think you're suggesting. I'm not very familiar with tabletop, so I admit to knowing very little about the humans in the Pathfinder world.

I can say that as someone who tries to stick with the lore, when I'm able to do my research, I definitely appreciate any information (or character/cultural suggestions) that the game provides for me while creating my character.

With that said, and I know you acknowledge this in your post, I think such efforts rarely homogenize the RP community in an MMO as much as some of us might like. But for those of who try to keep fairly in line with the game world, it'd only help to improve the integrity of the lore.

I'm generally sympathetic to this approach, but I would advise caution. I remember trying to play a Sorcerer (Wizard? Mage?) in Vanguard, where the obviously best choice was Kojani, but I didn't like the Kojani appearance.

For a lot of people, creating something close to what they already have in their head is far more important than creating something that fits in with the existing Pathfinder lore.

That said, I'm all for lots of different choices based on Culture (not Race). In fact, I think a lot of the Racial Bonuses really only make sense if the character actually grew up in that Culture as well. But those choices should by and large by minor to insignificant, while still allowing maximal freedom to the player to design the character of their choice.

Definitely a system that gives one race a clear advantage in something not specific to their race is a very bad idea. Mortal Online is the perfect example of this, in that only a few races are played of their dozens of possible racial combos, and those races are used almost exclusively for the role they are best at. (Thursar/Khurite fighters, Veela/Sheevra mages and Huergar/Blainn crafters.)

What I do support is logical roleplay based benefits for a races/ethnicity. If you have a viking style race their fighters should me more effective with light/medium armor, the barbarian class, and axes than the roman style race that is known for their use of heavy armor, shortswords, and spears/javelins.

I wouldn't mind seeing Half-Orcs always be better at builds that focus around dealing powerful blows with two handed weapons than halflings and halflings always be better a character based on dodging attacks and dealing a lot of quick light blows than a Half Orc.

Where my problem comes in is when I say. "I want to play a melee style character." and everyone says "Half Orc is hands down the best melee character and you are just gimping yourself if you go with another race for it."

If I had to choose between the two extremes I would say I would rather have race be just a skin that counts for nothing, but I really hope they can reach the right balance between logical roleplay based benefits, and prettymuch forcing racial choices based on the class you want to play.

Are you suggesting removing the racial tweaks of the non-human races...?

I'm not suggesting that Paizo should do this. I am suggesting that some of the "Racial Traits" have nothing to do with genetics and are purely a result of the Culture. For example, "Elves are proficient with longbows..." but what about an Elf that was taken captive as an infant and never even saw a longbow during his entire life. Is it rational for that Elf to still have proficiency with longbows?

I peaked at your past posts and it seemed like you're here for PFO, not PFRPG at all.

Guilty as charged. I didn't even know PFRPG existed before I heard of PFO. I think that's part of Ryan & Lisa's plan - get RPG fans who are familiar with PFRPG to take a closer look at PFO, while simultaneously getting MMO fans to take a closer look at PFRPG. And it worked. The Seventh Veil is currently organizing two separate PFRPG campaigns (there were too many players for one) that will be run over the net using voice chat and tools like roll20 so that we can get to know each other better, get to know the Pathfinder world better, develop our character ideas better, and just plain have fun. I believe The Great Legionnaires are doing the same thing.

@Andius, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I have no interest in trying to subvert the existing lore, I just want that lore to be sufficient for me to play the kinds of iconic characters that I've read and dreamed about my whole life.

Ethnic groups should have different advantages and disadvantages, after all, there are genetic differences that are more than appearance between RL human races.

...
Every aspect of a character should be linked into some active component. If they were a rock climber, they get a bonus to rock climbing, if they were raised by a fisherman, they get a bonus to fishing. IF you want to play a race that is not inclined to spell casting, you should get a penalty, this will not limit you, it will just make your journey harder if you want to fight nature.

The first statement you make is true, but the differences between ethnic groups are rarely the kinds of things that most of the population or any game is going to care about. Most differences are things like enzyme deficiencies and protein variants (ex: cystic fibrosis is virtually unknown in African Americans), with environmental, lifestyle, epigenetic, and familial variations reducing ethnic differences to background noise at best.

Also, there is a polite fiction in pretty much every RPG (and a whole lot of classrooms) that differences based on genetics are ignored within a species. The elephant in the room is male/female muscle mass. Almost all games gloss over the rather indisputable fact that men do possess more muscle. Likewise, they ignore mechanical differences between human populations. The more and more I think about this issue, the more I would think of group differences being limited to social perceptions.

The second point I completely agree with in theory, but I wonder how you would suggest implementing it. In the table game, I usually insist my player's skill selections make sense with who their character was before the adventures started (and at low level, generally that's not hard at all, given I push to make all skills extremely valuable). However, I see the problem with implementation. It could go from, "Well, I want to climb, so I will select Climb skill," to, "I want to climb, so I'm going to select Rock Climbing as a hobby."

The Doc CC wrote:

Are you suggesting removing the racial tweaks of the non-human races...?

I'm not suggesting that Paizo should do this. I am suggesting that some of the "Racial Traits" have nothing to do with genetics and are purely a result of the Culture. For example, "Elves are proficient with longbows..." but what about an Elf that was taken captive as an infant and never even saw a longbow during his entire life. Is it rational for that Elf to still have proficiency with longbows?

This does raise a question; if the vast majority of a race will be raised in its native community, but some small number of members will not, should you strip the vast majority of characters of traits that would fit their upbringing? Or would background packages that modify those races be a better option?

I peeked at your past posts and it seemed like you're here for PFO, not PFRPG at all.

Guilty as charged. I didn't even know PFRPG existed before I heard of PFO. I think that's part of Ryan & Lisa's plan - get RPG fans who are familiar with PFRPG to take a closer look at PFO, while simultaneously getting MMO fans to take a closer look at PFRPG. ...

Fixed a rather embarrassing typo on my part. Ahem. Also, I've no doubt that's what they did; those folks care deeply about their game and products, but they still have mortgages to pay.

At least for MMO fans who start looking at PFRPG, start-up costs are dice, pencils, ink, and computer paper. Everything a player would need to do their own thing is freely available here. Anyone who was drawn to WHO and wound up thinking of starting a Warhammer army was in for a serious case of sticker shock, and I'm rather shocked at how inept both the other GW and Wizards of the Coast have been at cross-marketing.

@Andius, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I have no interest in trying to subvert the existing lore, I just want that lore to be sufficient for me to play the kinds of iconic characters that I've read and dreamed about my whole life.

Seconded and thirded, since I have two hands. Though the word "Iconics" refers to these cats.

Also, at the risk of being that jerk who doesn't stop commenting, my initial questions focused exclusively on humanity and whether or not humans should be divided into subraces, with one concern being the human's ethnic group and the other being their homeland. The lore of the setting has mass migrations, travel, trade, etc. For example, the Land of the Linnorm Kings is "Viking Land," and Ulfen are the "Viking People," but nothing stops an Ulfen-race person from hailing from Andoran, "Renaissance-Era Fantasy Early America," and being culturally an Andoran.

I am grossly stereotyping to cut down the length of this post.

Firstly, I would like to say I really don't care about racial traits being farther subdivided by ethnicity or not. Or if they are included at all or not. I would like to see however a character generator that has nice presets for each ethnic group almost like in Eve. A Jin Mei looks different from Intaki. So in PFO I would like my Tian to be clearly different looking from a Ulfen.

Secondly, to not short change non-humans they too will needs diverse "palette" to choose from.

Lastly, if possible I would like a character creator with the same bone and muscle sculptor that is in Eve. Maybe with a height adjuster too. My favorite creators I have ever played with were City of Heroes, Champions Online, APB Reloaded, and Eve Online. The superhero MMO's were amazing for their costume set pieces (since the games lacked "armor sets" but as far making a highly detailed bodies/faces APB and Eve are amazing for making a unique looking individual.

I think there's two possible scenerios that could occur given diverse racial options.

1> There are several options but they're just cosmetic in nature..because in MMO terms there's very little hard coded variables that could be tweaked.

2> There are a several options and they all have large impacts across many facets of the players experience.

I believe 1 is what most MMOs end up like, even with FEW racial options. As for 2 I think one has to consider the cost/benefit of devoting resources to that level of variance based on a racial choice.

I personally think the cost is too high to really flesh out races in a significant and meaningful way in a MMO. Despite being a key component in RPGs there's just better places to offer complexity in a MMO, IMHO.

BTW, for a RPG that really does a nice job of making race important and not just a few bonus stats pick up a copy of Legacy of Heroes, http://thelegacyofheroes.com/

Anyhow, in an MMO I'd rather have my choices during play be more impactful than my choices at character creation...so I'm ok with minimal to no real impact based on race.

Editing to add: To answer the OPs question. Can PFO do this? Sure. But at what cost? I personally would rather see efforts towards customization not be racial/or cultural in nature and more based on choices my character makes in game.

Nihimon wrote:

... I just want that lore to be sufficient for me to play the kinds of iconic characters that I've read and dreamed about my whole life.

... the word "Iconics" refers to these cats.

Understood, but trust me, Nihimon Vhane'Sylvan and Khimber Vhane are just as iconic as those cats... at least, in my mind :)

The Doc CC wrote:

Nihimon wrote:

... I just want that lore to be sufficient for me to play the kinds of iconic characters that I've read and dreamed about my whole life.

... the word "Iconics" refers to these cats.

Understood, but trust me, Nihimon Vhane'Sylvan and Khimber Vhane are just as iconic as those cats... at least, in my mind :)

We all have such characters. I've been wondering whether reprising a favorite or creating a new one is a better idea myself. I look forward to meeting one or both of those cats in the near future. :)

The Doc CC wrote:

I peaked at your past posts and it seemed like you're here for PFO, not PFRPG at all.

Guilty as charged. I didn't even know PFRPG existed before I heard of PFO. I think that's part of Ryan & Lisa's plan - get RPG fans who are familiar with PFRPG to take a closer look at PFO, while simultaneously getting MMO fans to take a closer look at PFRPG. And it worked. The Seventh Veil is currently organizing two separate PFRPG campaigns (there were too many players for one) that will be run over the net using voice chat and tools like roll20 so that we can get to know each other better, get to know the Pathfinder world better, develop our character ideas better, and just plain have fun. I believe The Great Legionnaires are doing the same thing.

That is correct GL has several members who have never played Pathfinder before, including myself who will all be taking part in a campaign of all 6 books of Skulls and Shackles DMed by Valinar with 3 GL and 2 7th Veil members playing in it.

It should be fun. Some of us are tying in our character's backstories like Solemor playing his future PFO character and me playing an old oracle who's the grandfather of my future PFO character.

Nihimon wrote:

The Doc CC wrote:

I peaked at your past posts and it seemed like you're here for PFO, not PFRPG at all.

Guilty as charged. I didn't even know PFRPG existed before I heard of PFO. I think that's part of Ryan & Lisa's plan - get RPG fans who are familiar with PFRPG to take a closer look at PFO, while simultaneously getting MMO fans to take a closer look at PFRPG. And it worked. The Seventh Veil is currently organizing two separate PFRPG campaigns (there were too many players for one) that will be run over the net using voice chat and tools like roll20 so that we can get to know each other better, get to know the Pathfinder world better, develop our character ideas better, and just plain have fun. I believe The Great Legionnaires are doing the same thing.

That is correct GL has several members who have never played Pathfinder before, including myself who will all be taking part in a campaign of all 6 books of Skulls and Shackles DMed by Valinar with 3 GL and 2 7th Veil members playing in it.

It should be fun. Some of us are tying in our character's backstories like Solemor playing his future PFO character and me playing an old oracle who's the grandfather of my future PFO character.

Still have room for one more? I'm currently GMing two campaigns, so having a chance to play in one would be nice!

It should be fun. Some of us are tying in our character's backstories like Solemor playing his future PFO character and me playing an old oracle who's the grandfather of my future PFO character.

Believe me, I would have tried to find my way into some of those games if I thought it was possible, but given that I'm prepping for the boards, I would be a very unreliable individual. I hope you all have a blast.

Still have room for one more? I'm currently GMing two campaigns, so having a chance to play in one would be nice!

I am pretty sure Valinar doesn't want more than 5 but there is no harm in asking.

If you can't get in to that campaign though, we are likely to put together a 2nd campaign based on the amount of interest these seem to be stirring up.

As someone who has never played in the Pathfinder universe, I would love it if they was a wizard to help with creating the background for my character, so I as a player know a little about where they've come from.

For instance if I want to play a human, it would be great if I then had the choice of choosing if he was raised in a primitive, rural or urban setting. If I choose my chaacter to be from a city, then a number of options could be provided along with background on each of the selections.

That way even a total noob like myself would be able to RP the where my character is from, and know some of the common background info that any person raised in that environment would know.

Man I miss playing around a table or real-time online gaming with other people.

I would favor the usual racial bonus some have just from being that race, like elves having a better resistance to charm styled spells.

Then having other questions determine possible skill bonus's like if he was raised in one city that specialized in farming; then he'd have a bonus with farming style skills.

Background question might lead that his mother was a doctor in the town so he has a small bonus to healing skill checks.

Was even thinking if there was a background developer if you had a parent that was a caster you might be able to cast 1 0-level spell per day.

@Ravening, I love that idea.

Ravening's idea is awesome. I also hope the community would take it upon themselves to be helpful to players who want to RP but don't know the setting.

@ Brady: PFO has inspired a few online games. Ask around, make friends, and if someone can squeeze you into a game or if you offer to run one...

@Brady, you probably still have time to roll up a character for Darius's campaign. Check his post in our forums for info.

But if they squeeze to hard... I might pop.. *sniffle*

LotRO has something like this. You pick the region you are from, and the game gives you a range of cosmetic choices appropriate to the area, as well as some examples of names.

While LotRO makes no mechanical distinction between regions, I think a different mix of minor racial traits, by region, would be a good addition to character creation.

Still have room for one more? I'm currently GMing two campaigns, so having a chance to play in one would be nice!

Last time I checked we created a little form for people to fill out so we can get groups together. I am currently trying to find out if the seventh veil wants to create other join PFRPG groups with the Legion.

On the note of races. I really hope that it is diverse enough that we won't have clones running rampent. Considering at launch, they are attempting to introduce the core rule races from my understanding, it should be diverse enough for the moment.

Real Quick...

As a bonus for writing background stories I always grant my players (in my PnP games) traits. These traits are never game-changing, but they add flavor and make each character a little more unique. I dont see why GW cant offer something similar with PFO, having a list of traits that can be selected depending on which region you are from.

From Cheliax? You can start with a better relation to Azmodeus Cult, or have improved demon summoning.

From Varisia? You get a slight bump to your trade skill, or your perform skill.

Raised in Lastwall? Bonus fighting orcs and undead, or a bonus to the temple of Iomedae.

I am also partially available to DM an online game. I say partially because my schedule is pretty full, but I might be able to make some time if anyone wants to run a few sessions, or is interested in learning the system. (PM me)

LotRO has something like this. You pick the region you are from, and the game gives you a range of cosmetic choices appropriate to the area, as well as some examples of names.

While LotRO makes no mechanical distinction between regions, I think a different mix of minor racial traits, by region, would be a good addition to character creation.

This would be great. So would a wizard around the different deities. That way even noob's like me could create a character that has a bit of depth to their background story.

I have been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now, but because the title did not reflect what I imagined it would relate to I kept myself from responding.

I thought perhaps this might be relating to in depth visual tools on character creation to distinguish characters, more than mechanical stat differences.

To me, being able to customize my characters appearance is more important than mechanical differences when it comes to immersion. It's a preference I use even when adventuring around Golarion in the games I play. If I have a character that has specific subspecies or family traits, I reflect that in the feats I take when leveling.

If I play a dwarf of the Five Kings Mountains, and its a clan that has a family weapon associated with their heraldry, I make sure those are the focus feats I chose. Its not something I grab a resource book for, and even when I do occasionally pull from the Dwarves of Golarion book, its for something I have to purchase as I level. In pen and paper I find it keeps me from falling into a habit of minmaxing. Taking the best bang for my buck on character creation.

In MMO's its the same basic theme. As long as I can chose just the right facial structure, beard design, body type for my character I know I can make my skill choices reflect the background for my character. In this genre it's almost impossible to completely stop theory crafters from researching the very best builds, or flavors of the month. Giving us the tools to distinguish ourselves physically instead of skill wise, though, goes a long way.

That being said, as long as the adjustments are minor I would not mind subspecies skill adjustments. If I had to chose between that and visual tools, though, I will chose a robust character creator every time.

To me, being able to customize my characters appearance is more important than mechanical differences when it comes to immersion. It's a preference I use even when adventuring around Golarion in the games I play. If I have a character that has specific subspecies or family traits, I reflect that in the feats I take when leveling.

In MMO's its the same basic theme. As long as I can chose just the right facial structure, beard design, body type for my character I know I can make my skill choices reflect the background for my character.

Ah, sorry for misleading you. The "diverse race" was humanity. If you look at the iconics it's pretty clear Paizo wants you to see them as such. If you look at the 3.X iconics...eh...yeah. Unfortunate Implications, in TV Tropes' vocabulary, though I am certain the authors did not mean to do so. That's kind of unfortunate, given how hard a lot of the writers back in the TSR days worked to make their worlds populated by a really wide array of cultures and peoples.

I like a lot of what you're saying. Earlier, I'd brought up the idea of the char generator steering but not forcing you towards matching your human subtype's physical traits and names, but we did go off on the mechanical side of the discussion.

Two extensions of this: I hope players can make meaningful changes to their character's physique. Most players are still going to make people who could get work as underwear models, of course, but it would add more style and diversity.

I'd wish for that to extend to items, too. A craftsperson might have their goods sell for a premium because they just look good thanks to sharp visual style. That player's goods are in demand because that player makes them look good. Likewise, a craftsperson might design a custom piece for another character. For example, the mage and craftsperson making a fighter's magic cloak weave in his family's heraldry into the back. Heck, maybe a group crafts its gear along a particular theme, unifying their visual style. Has this been implemented in an MMO? Can it be implemented?

i think choosing a "race" or human culture should be mostly about looks .

you could also be given a range of choices to make.Things like your ancestry ,how you were raised or previous professions etc .Those choices would reflect on skills BUT they have little value on the long run because of how raising skills works

For example, you choose to be from brevoy , you would have skill points in using a sword ,dual wielding it etc .If i understand correctly from the blog , raising a skill takes time .You have the skill "dual wield" in novice lvl , you need 5 hours to get it to apprentice , 2 days to get it to normal , 1 week to get it to veteran ,and 2 months to get it to master.

In your mind you want to be an ulfen duelist. a min-max choice would require you to be from brevoy instead. This does not matter in such a system .Make an ulfen character , talk to a veteran warrior etc and get the "dual wield" skill, start training and voila one hour later you have the skill in novice lvl .sure the guy who chose to be from brevoy is one hour ahead , but 5 months down the road it does not matter

In your mind you want to be an ulfen duelist. a min-max choice would require you to be from brevoy instead. This does not matter in such a system .Make an ulfen character , talk to a veteran warrior etc and get the "dual wield" skill, start training and voila one hour later you have the skill in novice lvl .sure the guy who chose to be from brevoy is one hour ahead , but 5 months down the road it does not matter

Yeah in my opinion I have no problem with anything that gives minor head starts, as long as in the end, the max is not raised.

IE starting at 5 with the max skill being 100, is fine

starting at 5, with 100 as the max skill for everyone else, but 105 being your boosted max, I am not so OK with.

paxdak wrote:

To me, being able to customize my characters appearance is more important than mechanical differences when it comes to immersion. It's a preference I use even when adventuring around Golarion in the games I play. If I have a character that has specific subspecies or family traits, I reflect that in the feats I take when leveling.

In MMO's its the same basic theme. As long as I can chose just the right facial structure, beard design, body type for my character I know I can make my skill choices reflect the background for my character.

Ah, sorry for misleading you. The "diverse race" was humanity. If you look at the iconics it's pretty clear Paizo wants you to see them as such. If you look at the 3.X iconics...eh...yeah. Unfortunate Implications, in TV Tropes' vocabulary, though I am certain the authors did not mean to do so. That's kind of unfortunate, given how hard a lot of the writers back in the TSR days worked to make their worlds populated by a really wide array of cultures and peoples.

I like a lot of what you're saying. Earlier, I'd brought up the idea of the char generator steering but not forcing you towards matching your human subtype's physical traits and names, but we did go off on the mechanical side of the discussion.

Two extensions of this: I hope players can make meaningful changes to their character's physique. Most players are still going to make people who could get work as underwear models, of course, but it would add more style and diversity.

I'd wish for that to extend to items, too. A craftsperson might have their goods sell for a premium because they just look good thanks to sharp visual style. That player's goods are in demand because that player makes them look good. Likewise, a craftsperson might design a custom piece for another character. For example, the mage and craftsperson making a fighter's magic cloak weave in his family's heraldry into the back. Heck, maybe a group crafts its gear along a particular theme, unifying their...

I think across all boundaries visual diversity is important. I have always had a slight prejudice with skill and stat adjustments. While I think they translate well at our kitchen tables, they are somewhat annoying if taken too far in MMO's. Everquest is the biggest example of this. There were guilds that would not take a "tank" unless it was an ogre or troll. In the end the adjustments need to be minuscule in the overall scheme of things. Onishi summed it up best. A minor adjustment that can easily be erased over a short amount of time. I could live with that easily.

Your point on robust visual options are spot on what I would love to see. Its something I consider prerequisite for sandbox styled games. Its not the single most important element, but it makes a real difference. I often argue the benefits of fluff in general. It has seen success everywhere from Star Wars Galaxies "Image Designers" on down to that rare mount in themepark games.

Bringing up visual flare to differentiate crafters from one another intrigues me. I had talked to another Pax Gaming member about this during the kickstarter. Honestly I have never seen anything like it in a game and am not completely sure how hard it would be to implement. I do know, however, that these kinds of options work well in a game like this. People spent hours and won awards for taking base furniture items in SWG and arranging them into stunning pieces in their homes.

To further that line of thinking, how far would GW need to go in this direction to please you in this regard? Simply the ability to mix and match armors, color them, and pattern them into individualized sets? Being able to affect a base line design by adding spikes, swirls, or provided patterns? I am interested to see how intricate you see the tool needing to operate.

The coloration options in most games have always been a disappointment to me. It's always a straight no-dye deal like WoW (Which I find ultra-pathetic for such a big game) or there are parts of the armor which can be dyed and others that can't. This can lead to some pretty terrible looking armor if the non-dyeable components don't mix well with your desired color for the parts you can dye, which means the ability to pick your color is almost more of an illusion.

What I've always really thought they should do is make every part of the armor dyeable. AKA if there is a color on the armor you can change it.

Divide it into say metalic and cloth/leather components each with there own set of dyes and let us go to town.

I don't know, it could get a bit bandwith intensive in massive scale battles but I would rather see every armor only have two different colors and control those colors than continue on with the current standards.

The coloration options in most games have always been a disappointment to me. It's always a straight no-dye deal like WoW (Which I find ultra-pathetic for such a big game) or there are parts of the armor which can be dyed and others that can't. This can lead to some pretty terrible looking armor if the non-dyeable components don't mix well with your desired color for the parts you can dye, which means the ability to pick your color is almost more of an illusion.

What I've always really thought they should do is make every part of the armor dyeable. AKA if there is a color on the armor you can change it.

Divide it into say metalic and cloth/leather components each with there own set of dyes and let us go to town.

I don't know, it could get a bit bandwith intensive in massive scale battles but I would rather see every armor only have two different colors and control those colors than continue on with the current standards.

I see no reason why something like that could not be implemented, even on a shorter budget. Its something Warhammer online featured. They also had an option for players to create heraldry based off of a set of given images to display on cloaks if they wished. I'd love to see something like this explored, and honestly expanded.

Coloring items is something that goes back a ways, and is offered in plenty of games. I suppose what I am wondering since the conversation wandered this way is if these ideas could be expanded into newer freedom for crafters, guilds, and players.

For example, building cities in SWG was a huge deal when the political system was implemented. Groups of people spent a large amount of time arranging buildings so that they fit a pattern. They did not have any form of streets, though. You had to arrange everything to bring the illusion of alleyways. Could cobblestone roads be implemented in a game without pushing the budget? The same idea can be traded out for armor sets, buildings, ornamentation, guild heraldry, etc.

I'm not sure if it's practical, because I don't really have an understanding of the technical demands of distributing art assets and loading them efficiently, but I would really love to see a process whereby the community could submit some art assets for inclusion in-game. I'm thinking specifically about things like symbols that could be used on cloaks and buildings, and animated emotes for character models.

I'm not sure if it's practical, because I don't really have an understanding of the technical demands of distributing art assets and loading them efficiently, but I would really love to see a process whereby the community could submit some art assets for inclusion in-game. I'm thinking specifically about things like symbols that could be used on cloaks and buildings, and animated emotes for character models.

I used to play A Tale in the Desert; they had a person on staff who would modify the environment (slightly) as a benefit for people who had taken out 6 or 12 month subscriptions.

I'd think that GW could likewise have an artist with the side job of turning player-submitted heraldry art into textures for surcoats, banners, etc. Of course, there could/should be in-game challenges or costs to earn the heraldry service.

@Urman, that's a really neat idea.

I will hold out hope, though, that at some point we'll have technology capable of empowering us to really be the Content :)

Your optimism is... optimistic. :)

In Wurm, some of us attempted to create a player-made, tile-by-tile map. The idea was to use a standard set of colors to represent the different tiles and a 1 pixel = 1 tile scale; people could submit sections of the world map which we would piece together. Unfortunately, some people could not be counted upon to use a standard palette or scale, which meant that player input had to all be checked and often edited before adding it to a compiled map.

So, I guess I am cynical about people's ability to follow simple directions. I think there will need to be a staff member in the loop to ensure the player submissions won't crash the game and won't include graphics inappropriate for the game.

Oh, I definitely don't support unmoderated player contributions - even for simple things like tabard symbols.

And I would personally want the moderators to summarily reject any submissions which weren't submitted according to the guidelines.

Your optimism is... optimistic. :)

And your observation is... observant. :)

(( sorry, couldn't resist ))

The kind of work that goes into creating art assets, I certainly wouldn't mind these color customizations show up later into the game's lifespan. I'd rather see a reasonable amount of body styles, faces and form factors at launch. All the core races at start, with 3-5 body styles, plenty of hair styles and colors, beards etc. In this area Champions Online had a ridiculously customizable character creation, with the down side being that was basically what your hero looked like, essentially forever.

Having players manage the environmental look is another tricky area as well, where the integrity of the Art assets is almost assuredly going to be trashed.

The kind of work that goes into creating art assets, I certainly wouldn't mind these color customizations show up later into the game's lifespan. I'd rather see a reasonable amount of body styles, faces and form factors at launch. All the core races at start, with 3-5 body styles, plenty of hair styles and colors, beards etc. In this area Champions Online had a ridiculously customizable character creation, with the down side being that was basically what your hero looked like, essentially forever.

Having players manage the environmental look is another tricky area as well, where the integrity of the Art assets is almost assuredly going to be trashed.

On that point I would have to agree, Gruff.

I am a large fan of smaller freedoms for distinguishing cities, items,etc. My primary example is usually a couple of street pattern options and retaining walls. This doesn't strike me as something grand enough to be hard to implement, or something that will trash a hex.

Colorization also seems reasonable enough. Base heraldry is better than nothing, but possibly the ability to add images in layers will help distinction as well. Possibly a simple program in game that could handle up to three layers utilizing stock images?

Other games have done well in certain areas in an attempt to provide individuality to organizations and players. If those customizing options were the only thing available during the life of this game, I would have little cause for complaint. Like I have said, people spent hours decorating in SWG, with awesome results.

Of course I would not mind growing those options in small ways, either.

Oh and I agree, character generator options for visuals trumps every other concern in this department.

Urman's suggestion makes me think that maybe any group of sufficient size should be given a slot or three to import an image file to serve as their personal heraldic device, which can then be applied to things made by that group. Rather than have GW have to do the work, tell each group to get popping making a .tng or other file and upload it. Guidelines about indecent images, not using IP that you do not own, how to format a submission, and so on would be necessary, of course. But I can't imagine that it would be too difficult to import an image file that's already been created, and groups would go wild creating their own devices.

This also makes me think about whether the heraldry on such devices should be permanent until removed, and how groups are going to feel about non-members wearing items with their logo. Stolen goods, banditry, planting items, reclaiming possessions – sounds very “River Kingdomsy” to me.

Shooting from the hip here.

@ Paxdax: The very, very short answer is that the game could work with only minimal customization, as WoW does, but that would still be a lesser game than it could be. We definitely agree about how much value a great visual adds to a game. I can't guess how much some of this development would cost. There's definitely a depth and value added to the player by making the generators more and more robust. Until a player has to do CAD to forge an item, you're probably going to add to the experience by adding depth to both character creation and item creation. That said, I've no idea how much implementing these features costs in an MMO.

... spoilered to avoid putting up a wall of text.

That's more like a hedgerow of text... :)

@The Doc CC, the main cost I see in a system that allows each crafted item to be significantly customized is that the customized end product would have to be distributed out to every client that might view it, and would need to be indexed so that it can easily be displayed on the client when a character walks by with <itemID:231473> equipped. The fact that so many different custom items would be made would mean that each client would need to have access to a staggering amount of data.

The alternative would be to download the image when a character with the item equipped actually needs to be rendered, but this will result in lag, and will tend to still clutter the client PC with old custom items that were only ever rendered once, even if that character has since left the game and no one even has that custom item anymore.

In a truly ideal world, we would all have blazing internet connections to download custom image files as needed, without storing them locally.

It strikes me that it ought to be more practical to allow the community to submit finished designs that Goblinworks could then approve and distribute as if they had been developed in-house. Urman's suggestion to tie the privilege of designing a new Sword to the achievement of becoming a Master Swordcrafter seems like a very good one.

@ Nihimon: Show-off. :D

I'm asking since your expertise could help greatly. Could such a system not just transmit the values of the created content? For example, the server tells the client that character has a sword with crosspiece #257, length 63, angle 32, etc, etc, and lets the client's box render it? Or is that too costly in terms of bandwidth?

Could the program include a provision to delete content the client hasn't seen in a long time? For example, things you see frequently are still saved locally, but files which are months old and haven't been seen in an age are deleted.

Also, ooo, I like Urman's idea.

@Nihimon - tying the privilege of designing a new Sword to the achievement of becoming a Master Swordcrafter *is* a good evolution of my suggestion. One of the best parts of your suggestion there is that such new sword designs would be tied to master craftwork. So the new design would be in demand, recognizable, and rendered multiple times.

Or is that too costly in terms of bandwidth?

That would be my guess, which is based off some minor experience, but certainly not what I would call "expertise" :)

I would imagine it's a significant concern just sending the IDs for the 20 or 30 items a character has equipped in a way that should be visible. If that were multiplied by the number of customization options each slot could have, I would expect that would prove too taxing.

Strategies to attempt cleaning up old files may end up doing more harm than good if they delete files that then need to be re-downloaded. There's just no way to know for sure what the client might need to render in the future.

One thought that I've had for many years involves very basic rendering of other characters until you actively /inspect or /look at them, at which point you would see their custom facial options, etc. I expect this would not be acceptable to most players, though.