Untrained Knowledge?

[drawesome1111]

Ok just out of curiousity...let's say a player wants to make an untrained Knowledge check and add Know the Enemy ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/know-the-enemy )

Is that allowed, does it count as using a complete library, or is it something else?

[Quatar]

No, just gives you a +10 bonus. Since it's still untrained though, the max DC he can succeed on is DC 10.
I guess I could see a reason to increase the max DC to 20 too, with that spell, but that would be houserule.

[Starglim]

If the DC is 10 or lower, he can do it (and presumably auto-succeed). If the DC is higher than 10, he can't make an untrained Knowledge check regardless of his bonus. The spell doesn't count as a library as its effect is nothing like a library.

[drawesome1111]

Ahh ok, thanks :-)

[Mabven the OP healer]

A bard can make untrained knowledge skill checks using the Bardic Knowledge ability.

[Skerek]

Mabven the OP healer wrote:

A bard can make untrained knowledge skill checks using the Bardic Knowledge ability.

Anyone can make knowledge checks untrained, but the bard isn't limited to a max result of 10 when doing so

[CraziFuzzy]

I was under the impression that the words of this spell stating the you can make a knowledge check was overriding the DC 10 limitation.

[VRMH]

CraziFuzzy wrote:

I was under the impression that the words of this spell stating the you can make a knowledge check was overriding the DC 10 limitation.

Perhaps that was indeed the intent. But I doubt it myself.

[Kazaan]

I think in this case, specific overrides general. Normally, you can't even attempt a Knowledge check if the DC is over 10; it doesn't say you can't succeed at a check with a DC higher than 10. So, in the case at hand, you cast a spell which, in turn, prompts a Knowledge check. That would, consequentially, bypass the DC 10 limit because the effect of the spell says, "make a knowledge check." And, given that the spell is a matter of divine communication, it makes even more sense that it would bypass normal restrictions.

So, logically, I'd have to conclude that, while you gain no benefit from skill ranks or class skill bonus, you can still attempt and, potentially, succeed at the check because, in essence, the spell is forcing the check for you.

[dragonhunterq]

VRMH wrote:

CraziFuzzy wrote:

I was under the impression that the words of this spell stating the you can make a knowledge check was overriding the DC 10 limitation.

Perhaps that was indeed the intent. But I doubt it myself.

It's kind of underwhelming without overriding the limitation, it is fairly narrow anyway without removing utility - "Know the enemy, but only if you have a relevant skill rank".

[CraziFuzzy]

Nevermind that most monster lore checks have a DC 10+CR, so it pretty much HAS to override the limit to provide any benefit at all.

[Claxon]

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Nevermind that most monster lore checks have a DC 10+CR, so it pretty much HAS to override the limit to provide any benefit at all.

No it doesn't. The spell is perfectly useful. You just need to be trained in the appropriate knowledge for the type of creature your going to use with regard to the spell.

It's not useful for making knowledge checks untrained, which isn't really a problem for the spell.

[CraziFuzzy]

So how do you parse the spells description when cast by a character with no ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), who casts it and reflects on the slime mold (DC-12) she encountered earlier in the day?

Knowledge wrote:

You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10.

Know the Enemy wrote:

You commune with the divine, reflecting on one type of creature you encountered in the last day. You may make a Knowledge check regarding that creature type with a +10 insight bonus.

To me, the specific text of the spell certainly overrides the general restriction of the knowledge skill.

[phantom1592]

Where does the spell indicate that it's intended for characters to do this untrained? You may make a Knowledge check regarding that creature type with a +10 insight bonus... doesn't say anything about letting you do things untrained.

A +10 bonus is pretty sweet bonus to a knowledge you already have a rank in. It can turn a 21 into a 31 and that'll give you a lot of information about the monster... but I'm not reading it as suddenly making you skilled in that knowledge.

[Rub-Eta]

CraziFuzzy wrote:

So how do you parse the spells description when cast by a character with no ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), who casts it and reflects on the slime mold (DC-12) she encountered earlier in the day?

Knowledge wrote:

You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10.

Know the Enemy wrote:

You commune with the divine, reflecting on one type of creature you encountered in the last day. You may make a Knowledge check regarding that creature type with a +10 insight bonus.

To me, the specific text of the spell certainly overrides the general restriction of the knowledge skill.

Nowhere does it say that you are allowed to make an untrained knowledge check with a DC higher than 10 or attempt to make any knowledge skill check as if you where trained.

This is a more correct bold for emphasis:

Know the Enemy wrote:

You commune with the divine, reflecting on one type of creature you encountered in the last day. You may make a Knowledge check regarding that creature type with a +10 insight bonus.

It allows you to add +10 to a knowledge check (you can chose which check, it doesn't have to be your next one). Simply having a high modifier doesn't make you trained either.

[Claxon]

CraziFuzzy wrote:

So how do you parse the spells description when cast by a character with no ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), who casts it and reflects on the slime mold (DC-12) she encountered earlier in the day?

Knowledge wrote:

You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10.

Know the Enemy wrote:

You commune with the divine, reflecting on one type of creature you encountered in the last day. You may make a Knowledge check regarding that creature type with a +10 insight bonus.

To me, the specific text of the spell certainly overrides the general restriction of the knowledge skill.

Because it doesn't override anything. The sentence is written that way because that way sounds natural to tell you that you get a +10 bonus to the check. It's not telling you that you can make more than a DC 10 check if you're untrained.

You're putting emphasis on 3 words that really shouldn't have the emphasis.

[Bob's Feet]

This spell is ... odd.

Casting time is one minute. So you aren't likely to be using it in combat. It gives information on a "creature type" rather than a "creature", so (to use an example from a poster above), a caster "...who casts it and reflects on the slime mold (DC-12) she encountered earlier in the day" would get information on Oozes - on the "creature type", but not on "slime molds". Correct?

weird spell...

[David knott 242]

I wonder whether this might be a case of sloppy rules language? In the case above, it would make more sense for the Knowledge check to yield information about slime molds in general than about the Ooze type (which could be assumed to be already known in many cases).

[Rub-Eta]

Ooze is not a "creature type". It's just called and referred to as "type" in the Bestiary books ("creature type" is not a coined term within Pathfinder).
What I'm assuming that "creature type" (and the reason why it doesn't just say "creature") is referring to the stat-block if one kind/type of creature (ghoul, goblin, occultist, etc), not a specific individual creature.

Example: If it just said "creature", I could justify that Sheriff Hemlock is technically a creature. So I'll cast the spell and then roll a knowledge local to get some dirt on him. - This is not what the spell is intended for.

Bob's Feet wrote:

Casting time is one minute. So you aren't likely to be using it in combat.

Read the spell and you'll see that you're not supposed to cast the spell until the day after combat.

[David knott 242]

"In the last day" is broad enough that you could cast it immediately after a fight, or first thing the next day after you prepare spells.

[Rub-Eta]

Indeed, not during a fight.