Diehard Feat and Nonlethal Damage

[Veldebrand]

A) Will a character with Diehard become unconscious if reduced below his HP total with nonlethal damage?

B) If Diehard doesn't work, is there any way to not become unconscious if reduced to below your HP total with nonlethal damage?

Diehard feat:

Spoiler:

Diehard
You are especially hard to kill. Not only do your wounds automatically stabilize when grievously injured, but you can remain conscious and continue to act even at death's door.

Prerequisite: Endurance.

Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.

Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to negative hit points is unconscious and dying.

Nonlethal damage rules:

Spoiler:

Nonlethal Damage

Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening. Unlike normal damage, nonlethal damage is healed quickly with rest.

Dealing Nonlethal Damage

Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage

You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage

You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Staggered and Unconscious

When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.

When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.

Spellcasters who fall unconscious retain any spellcasting ability they had before going unconscious.

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.

Healing Nonlethal Damage

You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

[Serisan]

Diehard appears to have no effect on non-lethal damage.

Quote:

Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

Your hit points are not being reduced. Your non-lethal damage total is increasing. Two entirely different things.

[Veldebrand]

You know, that is a great way to look at it. (nonlethal damage total is increasing)

I didn't figure Diehard would work, that is why I asked the second question as to whether anything would work like Diehard for nonlethal. I couldn't find anything yet, but I don't have that deep an understanding of the materials and rules.

[AvalonXQ]

That's a pretty ridiculous nerf for Diehard. Even one point of nonlethal damage completely eliminates the benefit of the Diehard feat.

When a sword swing won't take an orc down, but dropping the sword and just punching it in the face will take it down, something's amiss.

[Maerimydra]

Yeah, and beside:

"when it (Nonlethal Damage) exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious."

That would mean that a character with 0 point of Nonlethal Damage would fall unconscious as soon as he reaches negative hit points.

[WRoy]

AvalonXQ wrote:

That's a pretty ridiculous nerf for Diehard. Even one point of nonlethal damage completely eliminates the benefit of the Diehard feat.

When a sword swing won't take an orc down, but dropping the sword and just punching it in the face will take it down, something's amiss.

And orc ferocity. By a strict reading of the mechanics, orc ferocity wouldn't activate if an orc or half-orc were tapped for some nonlethal damage then brought to a positive number of hit points less than that amount.

That's just silly.

[AvalonXQ]

BTW, here's my house rule solution:

Add the creature's Constitution score to the amount of nonlethal damage necessary to knock her unconscious.

This essentially means that punching an orc in the negatives won't drop him unconscious unless the same amount of lethal damage would have killed him.

[Foghammer]

This makes me think that the rules for non-lethal damage need to be revised.

And also makes me think it would be cool to have a "knockout" threshold similar to the "massive damage" threshold.

EDIT: I realize they're almost the same, but more specifically, a set amount of damage done in a single blow being able to knock a creature unconscious, rather than being able to whittle it away a bit at a time. And perhaps for the "whittling" effect it would have to equal 1.5x the total HP?

[Martiln]

Had something like this just come up in a game I'm running:

Player got hit by an SLA that replicated confusion and also did 1d6 nonlethal/caster level. The player had diehard, and eventually got to the point where his nonlethal exceeded his current HP and knocked him out. our group thought it hilarious that even though he's hard to kill, he can still get KTFO.

[MrCab]

Yeah...to not allow Diehard to affect Non-lethal damage as a knockout point is silly. That said there's some updates to be made to the rules here. You shouldn't be able to poke someone for 1 non-lethal to knock them out when they're in the negatives already. Acting while in the "non-lethal negative" range, for lack of a better term, could possibly deal lethal damage as the cost for acting.

That said, there would also need to be another limit for damage. Someone shouldn't be able to stay concious, forever immune to falling unconcious from non-lethal, just because of the Die Hard feat. I guess HP + CON is the way to go, but we are in uncharted RAW territory here.

[Tharkon]

Diehard also seems to be unclear on whether you are disabled or staggered.

First it says you act as if disabled, which you already are because you are disabled whenever your hp is 0 or lower and you are not dying. Then it says you are staggered but also lose hit points (something that normally is part of disabled).

So it seems to say that instead of being unconscious and dying you can choose to be unconscious and disabled or disabled and disabled and then you are also staggered and lose hit points as if you were disabled.

Besides nitpicking about the exact terminology the important question here is, do you move at half speed? Oh and do you lose hit points twice if you are disabled twice?

Note: Ferocity makes you staggered and lose hit points as if dying.

As for non-lethal damage, by RAW it is unaffected by Diehard.
RAI is vague, I'd say you are never knocked out at all with Diehard, since that's the whole intent about Diehard, someone who keeps fighting until he is absolutely dead. Barring sleep spells of course.

But don't forget about this:
"If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. "

[Balanced]

Tharkon wrote:

Diehard also seems to be unclear on whether you are disabled or staggered.

First it says you act as if disabled, which you already are because you are disabled whenever your hp is 0 or lower and you are not dying. Then it says you are staggered but also lose hit points (something that normally is part of disabled).

So it seems to say that instead of being unconscious and dying you can choose to be unconscious and disabled or disabled and disabled and then you are also staggered and lose hit points as if you were disabled.

Besides nitpicking about the exact terminology the important question here is, do you move at half speed? Oh and do you lose hit points twice if you are disabled twice?

Note: Ferocity makes you staggered and lose hit points as if dying.

As for non-lethal damage, by RAW it is unaffected by Diehard.
RAI is vague, I'd say you are never knocked out at all with Diehard, since that's the whole intent about Diehard, someone who keeps fighting until he is absolutely dead. Barring sleep spells of course.

But don't forget about this:
"If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. "

Yes, since nonlethal eventually becomes lethal that means that diehard isn't broken. They are just harder to kill and even harder to knock out since being knocked out is less than being killed. Otherwise knocking them out and Coup Du Grace would be an embarrassing way to kill them. So if they have 10 con and 20 health then it takes 50 nonlethal to kill them, but if it's pure lethal then it takes 30 lethal to kill them.

Anyone understand why I want this rectified. It isn't broken so why isn't it widely accepted?