Double-Chained Kama fighting options

[Skjald]

So you have two options when fighting with the double-chained Kama, either as a double weapon or a reach weapon, but what kind of action is it to change between the two styles?

The dorn dergar requires a move action to change the reach, but the double-chained kama does not mention this, so is it a move, free, swift or immediate action?

[Ravingdork]

There is no action. You decide before you take an attack action or full attack action.

[Skjald]

No action?
That doesn't seem right; then you can threaten adjacent and with reach at the same time? To my knowledge no other weapon does that.

[Ravingdork]

I never said it wasn't powerful.

It is an exotic weapon after all.

[StealthElite]

My question is was it supposed to be finesse-able?

since kamas are light weapons normally and most chain weapons are usually finesse-able.

[Umbranus]

RAW only the offhand while using it as double weapon is finessable.

I used one in one of our games and my gm allowed to use it with finesse in every way.

But I think you can use this weapon in a third way you did not mention.
As a single weapon without reach by dropping one kama end, to do something else with your free hand.

[oneplus999]

srd wrote:

Double Weapons: A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

This is a little odd... the bit about only using one end "in any given round" specifically applies to when you are using a double weapon one-handed, which I didn't even realize was possible to do. The section about using it two handed is probably meant to be the same? So I'd think each round you are either using it in reach mode (two handed), reach mode (one handed), or kama mode (dual or single wielding, if you dropped one), and that mode persists out of your round for aoo purposes.

Of course if you use it with reach, then you still threaten at melee if you have IUS and can kick them.

srd wrote:

Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.

This is a case of specific-overrides-general, so when you are using it in kama-mode they would both be finessable. At reach though? It would make sense, based on it's similarity to whips and chains, but I don't see anything RAW that would support that idea.

PS I like how it's a double CHAINED kama that gets "WHIPPED about" and yet it still doesn't specify that it is finessable like the spiked chain and the whip. I assume it's for balance purposes so that if you want finesse and reach you have to use the whip and all the downsides that go with it, or take lunge.

[Skjald]

UC wrote:

The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack.

This does seem to suggest two different styles of wielding the weapon, and not that you can do both a at once. I think oneplus999 is right that you have to chose and live with your choice until it is your turn again, even if it only a free action to switch between the styles.

[Brother Sapo]

As I read the weapon description and RAW, it is a free action to change from reach to adjacent by pulling one kama back to you. It is also a free action to drop an object, in this case one of the kama.
So, if I read this correctly, a monk can use both ends of the DCK to flurry, then drop one end as a free action, thus threatening both adjacent and reach squares.
On the next round, the monk can spend a free action to pull the loose kama back, flurry with both halves, then use another free action to drop one end again. The rules specifically say that a character can take one or more free actions in a round.
This looks pretty good.

[Krodjin]

oneplus999 wrote:

srd wrote:

Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.

PS I like how it's a double CHAINED kama that gets "WHIPPED about" and yet it still doesn't specify that it is finessable like the spiked chain and the whip. I assume it's for balance purposes so that if you want finesse and reach you have to use the whip and all...

I like how there is a mysterious rope somewhere on the weapon. WTF? Seriously, is there a more confusing weapon in all of PF? Is the rope hemp or silk? How long is it?

[Brother Sapo]

The description in d20pfsrd (quoting Ultimate Combat) says:

Quote:

This weapon comprises a pair of kama connected with an 8-foot length of chain.

Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.

So it's a chain, except when it's a rope. How is that confusing?

[Petrus222]

Given the text of the description, do people see reach version of the DCK usable in iterative attacks or not?

The text of allowing "a single attack" at reach is a little ambiguous.

[Gavmania]

It gets more confusing.

Used as a reach weapon, it is a two handed weapon getting 1.5 times STR bonus. Used as an adjacent weapon, it is a double weapon or a light weapon with 1 x STR bounus to damage.

I think.

If I use lunge, at 10' is it a double/light or a two handed weapon? can it be either?

While it is obviously meant to be an extremely versatile weapon, it's brief description does not clear up any of the rules associated with it. Anyone know if there are FAQ that clear this up?