Ok all aboard the sick logic train
Step 1: find a sympathetic GM would doesn't mind Monsterous PC's
Step 2: Choose a tiny dragon such as the white or crystal wyrmling
Step 3: levelup in the Witch Class to level 7 (which would be 8 for the group)
Step 4: learn and use the threefold aspect spell
Threefold aspect allows you to shift your appearance between your natural age and three idealized age categories: young adult (youth/maiden), adulthood (father/mother), or elderly (elder/crone).
So Wyrmling (tiny) to Old (huge) for 24 hours for 5gp
Step 5: cackle madly as a Huge Dragon Witch only can :)
Step 6: did i mention you can shift between wyrmling, young adult, adult and old as a standard action at will !
thoughts on the RAW ?
While it is a funny idea, Garden Tool is right. You would just turn into a wyrmling who looked like he had Progeria.
Alternative solution: pay to have an NPC cast Polymorph Any Object a couple times for the permanent changes?
Good luck finding the level 15 Wizard that you can convince to pull this off.
Alternative solution: pay to have an NPC cast Polymorph Any Object a couple times for the permanent changes?
Good luck finding the level 15 Wizard that you can convince to pull this off.
Power right on through that -20 penalty for impossible lies when using Bluff 8)
The RAW is easy. Threefold aspect affects only the appearance of your age. It does not affect your actual age, or any abilities gained with age. The abilities of the spell effect are spelled out in the text, and amount to a disguise and a several static stat changes.
You'll notice I never said anything about massive natural armor bumps or breath weapons.
I'm just talking about appearance
the idealized appearance of an old dragon is a huge looking dragon not a tiny dragon that looks old.
I can think of many a scenario where looking like a Huge dragon would come in handy even without any of the cool abilities that entails ;)
If you need a speific kind of DM then is probably not RAW.Step 1: find a sympathetic GM would doesn't mind...
There are core rules for using monsters as PC, but its still needs a GM to sign off on their use. So yes it is RAW but not something your GM MUST allow, tis optional.
Let me put it another way its as RAW as traits are
Those are guidelines not rules, just like WBL. :)
If you need a speific kind of DM then is probably not RAW.Step 1: find a sympathetic GM would doesn't mind...
There are core rules for using monsters as PC, but its still needs a GM to sign off on their use. So yes it is RAW but not something your GM MUST allow, tis optional.
Let me put it another way its as RAW as traits are
It isn't really as RAW as traits is. Monsters as PCs are written rules for certain races that has stats for PCs. Traits have written rules. There are no such rules for PCs wanting to play a dragon, which mean that the GM have to make something up.
Regarding the size change, it is most definately an ability, which a dragon gains with age, just like breath weapons or natural armor. It fundamentally changes your statistics, and are a unique case, since size change aren't normally connected to age changes.
If you need a speific kind of DM then is probably not RAW.Step 1: find a sympathetic GM would doesn't mind...
There are core rules for using monsters as PC, but its still needs a GM to sign off on their use. So yes it is RAW but not something your GM MUST allow, tis optional.
Let me put it another way its as RAW as traits are
It isn't really as RAW as traits is. Monsters as PCs are written rules for certain races that has stats for PCs. Traits have written rules. There are no such rules for PCs wanting to play a dragon, which mean that the GM have to make something up.
Regarding the size change, it is most definately an ability, which a dragon gains with age, just like breath weapons or natural armor. It fundamentally changes your statistics, and are a unique case, since size change aren't normally connected to age changes.
pg 313 and 314 of the bestiary have rules for running any monster as a PC no making up rules is required.
size is an ability .... errr ok then what kind of ability ? Sp Su or Ex ? Last time I checked size is just size.
Lets be clear the spell is a transmutation, the only ability changes are those listed, however there is nothing written in the spell that would prevent a size change , there is simply no mechanical change from the size.
think of like a balloon, it starts small but can be expanded, making it bigger doesn't make it any stronger or tougher just bigger.
But there are basic rules for size - at least, AC, stealth and to-hit rules...
But there are basic rules for size - at least, AC, stealth and to-hit rules...
From the spell description
"As enhancement bonuses, these stack with any bonuses or penalties you may have from your actual age (which are untyped bonuses)-the bonuses granted by this spell represent your idealized form in this threefold aspect rather than simply duplicating your ability scores at any one particular age."So no just because your size changes doesn't mean your stats change as a result. Just look at any of the polymorph spells, they list what changes you make you don't apply size change modifiers on top of that.
Lets be clear the spell is a transmutation, the only ability changes are those listed, however there is nothing written in the spell that would prevent a size change , there is simply no mechanical change from the size.
The spell doesn't suddenly do, something that isn't described in the spell. If transmutation effect changes your size, they are explicit about that.
Threefold Aspect is explicit in which effects it has, size changes are not mentioned.
If you want to start adding effects to existing spells, you are well within the houserule territory.
Lets be clear the spell is a transmutation, the only ability changes are those listed, however there is nothing written in the spell that would prevent a size change , there is simply no mechanical change from the size.The spell doesn't suddenly do, something that isn't described in the spell. If transmutation effect changes your size, they are explicit about that.
Threefold Aspect is explicit in which effects it has, size changes are not mentioned.
If you want to start adding effects to existing spells, you are well within the houserule territory.
" In each case, your appearance is your own at the appropriate age"
appearance wise dragons of a certain age have a certain size.
the effect is described in the spell
" In each case, your appearance is your own at the appropriate age"appearance wise dragons of a certain age have a certain size.
the effect is described in the spell
Size is not appearance. Size is something very mechanical.
I honestly don't think this is even close to a loop-hole in the rules. It requires a lot of reading stuff into the spell that isn't there.
" In each case, your appearance is your own at the appropriate age"appearance wise dragons of a certain age have a certain size.
the effect is described in the spell
Size is not appearance. Size is something very mechanical.
I honestly don't think this is even close to a loop-hole in the rules. It requires a lot of reading stuff into the spell that isn't there.
Size is part of appearance
A Tiny sized Great Wyrm Red Dragon and a Colossal Great Wyrm Red Dragon do not have the same appearance.
size matters :P
as far as reading into a spell this is hardly reading very deep.
you look like an older version of yourself, an older dragon looks big. 2 +2 = 4
Here you go: Link to PFSRD on size rules.
Your size affects at least the following; your attacks, your AC, the Stealth and Fly skills, the space you take up and your reach.
So it doesn't matter what it says in the spell. The spell has nothing to do with a size change - arguing that way is a circular argument.
The argument against your position is, that IF you change your size, there are certain stats that change as well, according to the rules. Since this is not called out in the spell, the spell is not meant to change your size. This is according to RAW - what you or your GM decides is another matter.
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" In each case, your appearance is your own at the appropriate age"appearance wise dragons of a certain age have a certain size.
the effect is described in the spell
Size is not appearance. Size is something very mechanical.
I honestly don't think this is even close to a loop-hole in the rules. It requires a lot of reading stuff into the spell that isn't there.
Size is part of appearance
A Tiny sized Great Wyrm Red Dragon and a Colossal Great Wyrm Red Dragon do not have the same appearance.
size matters :P
as far as reading into a spell this is hardly reading very deep.
you look like an older version of yourself, an older dragon looks big. 2 +2 = 4
The spell doesn't alter your size, only appearance, you would look like a teeny old dragon. Spells that alter size specifically say so in their description.
If you need a speific kind of DM then is probably not RAW.Step 1: find a sympathetic GM would doesn't mind...
There are core rules for using monsters as PC, but its still needs a GM to sign off on their use. So yes it is RAW but not something your GM MUST allow, tis optional.
Let me put it another way its as RAW as traits are
It isn't really as RAW as traits is. Monsters as PCs are written rules for certain races that has stats for PCs. Traits have written rules. There are no such rules for PCs wanting to play a dragon, which mean that the GM have to make something up.
Regarding the size change, it is most definately an ability, which a dragon gains with age, just like breath weapons or natural armor. It fundamentally changes your statistics, and are a unique case, since size change aren't normally connected to age changes.
pg 313 and 314 of the bestiary have rules for running any monster as a PC no making up rules is required.
size is an ability .... errr ok then what kind of ability ? Sp Su or Ex ? Last time I checked size is just size.
Lets be clear the spell is a transmutation, the only ability changes are those listed, however there is nothing written in the spell that would prevent a size change , there is simply no mechanical change from the size.
think of like a balloon, it starts small but can be expanded, making it bigger doesn't make it any stronger or tougher just bigger.
" In each case, your appearance is your own at the appropriate age"appearance wise dragons of a certain age have a certain size.
the effect is described in the spell
Size is not appearance. Size is something very mechanical.
I honestly don't think this is even close to a loop-hole in the rules. It requires a lot of reading stuff into the spell that isn't there.
Size is part of appearance
A Tiny sized Great Wyrm Red Dragon and a Colossal Great Wyrm Red Dragon do not have the same appearance.
size matters :P
as far as reading into a spell this is hardly reading very deep.
you look like an older version of yourself, an older dragon looks big. 2 +2 = 4
The spell also does not make you older. It makes you appear to be older, so even with the most strict reading of RAW your size never changes, it just appears to, and that is not the intent of the spell. RAI trumps RAW for most GMs anyway.
Threefold aspect allows you to shift your appearance between your natural age and three idealized age categories: young adult (youth/maiden), adulthood (father/mother), or elderly (elder/crone). In each case, your appearance is your own at the appropriate age, rather than that of a new individual.
The spell also does not make you older. It makes you appear to be older, so even with the most strict reading of RAW your size never changes, it just appears to, and that is not the intent of the spell. RAI trumps RAW for most GMs anyway.
I refer to your comment I've put in bold
All I have been saying is that when someone looks at you they see a Huge dragon under this effect, I infer no age related effects, only the appearance of what any old dragon would look like and that be huge.
Those are guidelines not rules, just like WBL. :)
And here I though all rules were inherently guidelines since GM prerogative trumps everything ;)
On a completely different note
As a GM this would be a great way to let the group encounter a Huge Dragon without it causing any problems to a lower level group... like killing them ;)
And when they find out its just a wyrmling fooling around it should make for a memorable encounter
As a GM this would be a great way to let the group encounter a Huge Dragon without it causing any problems to a lower level group... like killing them ;)
And when they find out its just a wyrmling fooling around it should make for a memorable encounter
Very cute idea, but seems like one much better fulfilled through a generic illusion of some sort, rather than a weird use of a weird Witch spell. I'm not sure which illusion spell would fit best, but well... remember that GM prerogative you were talking about earlier?
Those are guidelines not rules, just like WBL. :)And here I though all rules were inherently guidelines since GM prerogative trumps everything ;)
To paraphrase animal farm.
All rules are guidelines, but some are more guidelines than others. :P
Those are guidelines not rules, just like WBL. :)And here I though all rules were inherently guidelines since GM prerogative trumps everything ;)To paraphrase animal farm.
All rules are guidelines, but some are more guidelines than others. :P
LOL. I remember that.
Those are guidelines not rules, just like WBL. :)And here I though all rules were inherently guidelines since GM prerogative trumps everything ;)To paraphrase animal farm.
All rules are guidelines, but some are more guidelines than others. :P
Seems like something to use on a GM during a skull and shackles game :P
The Pirate's Code :P